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Author Topic: LLVJ-16 DVD Download  (Read 19907 times)
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2007, 02:26:41 PM »
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I also think the download will go up if customer support is better (sorry).
I have coupons for the downloads and mailed several times if I can PLEASE set them over to DVD downloads, and the answer is no....

To be honest that will put me of into downloading 16 because I already saw it and am not willing to fork out 14,95 for something I have seen.

17 will be a download for me, even if it means I have to pay it myself without coupons, I will if possible NEVER watch the small files again.

I also think the workprocess you mention is way overrated.
You have to do the authering for DVD because there are people that still want the DVD, so just upload the image.

The smaller videos are MUCH more work because you have to transcode them.

Just drop the small videos and host the large image and I think EVERYONE will switch to DVD download.

Even if you make the transistion from 3 to 4 downloads, for my part you can even translate the subscription to 1:1.

Now I have changed my subscription to downloads on a 2:1 basis and I will 100% sure drop the coupons and just fork out the 14.95 downloads, it's a shame and loss of money but I want the best quality.

Greetings,
Frank

ps.
I still think is weird I get the response from customer support the change is definite and nothing can be done....
I really love what you guys are doing and will support the product, but we release instructional DVDs ourselfs and customers are the most important part for all that work.
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2007, 02:32:43 PM »
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Many thanks for your feedback!  

As I posted earlier, the size/quality/cost of 2.5 hours of video in the LLVJ downloads is a bit of a balancing act but one that is easily adjusted. I am looking for a judicious balance between quality and size without the cost of huge bandwidth requirements to either the customer or ourselves.

DVD-Video with MPEG2 is 720 x 480 pixels with on old clunky out-of-date codec - but it does look good on a TV set...

The equivalent quality is now available at half the file size with MPEG4/H.264  Currently the HiRes download  size is 640 x 360 @24 fps with a variable bitrate and most customers have found the quality of them acceptable or better (for those who would like to see a sample go here).

As noted before, the DVDs are designed for television sets, the current downloads for computer monitors; each will look better on its native screen and not-as-good on its non-native one. If you look at the  samples, I do not believe the descriptions of juddering, crappy, etc justified - perhaps they refer to my camera work   . But I do hear people complaining who convert them to DVD and play them on an HD set ...

I thank you for your compliments that the DVDs are high quality and believe me I will strive to find an equivalent quality or better solution for the Download products. Also remember that I will be producing physical DVDs through LLVJ-20 - so we have some time to go before the end of plastic DVDs.

Chris S
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:34:26 PM by Chrissand » Logged

Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2007, 02:43:29 PM »
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DVD-Video with MPEG2 is 720 x 480 pixels with on old clunky out-of-date codec - but it does look good on a TV set...

The equivalent quality is now available at half the file size with MPEG4/H.264  Currently the HiRes download  size is 640 x 360 @24 fps with a variable bitrate and most customers have found the quality of them acceptable or better (for those who would like to see a sample go here).
To be honest with you, I don't care if anybody else is satisfied with the video quality of the video downloads. Ansel Adams himself could rise from the grave and endorse them and I still wouldn't care (although I'd be impressed by the resurrection). I have seen them for myself and I say they look like crap and I don't want them.

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I thank you for your compliments that the DVDs are high quality and believe me I will strive to find an equivalent quality or better solution for the Download products. Also remember that I will be producing physical DVDs through LLVJ-20 - so we have some time to go before the end of plastic DVDs.
That's good to know, except it hardly helps those of us who have made the mistake of converting our subscriptions, since customer service is unwilling to convert them back.

I have voted with my wallet by sending an e-mail to customer service, copying Chris and Michael, requesting my DVD subscription be restored or my money be refunded. I have absolutely zero interest in the download video version of LLVJ. The quality just isn't there, and I have no desire to watch 2.5 hours of video in a little window on a computer screen.

...Mike
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...Mike
kaelaria
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2007, 03:22:22 PM »
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You can quote specs all you want - be it the nature of the beast or a mistake in your compiling - the download version is crap compared to the DVD version, period.  

Does it look good in a native sized window on the computer?  Yes.  Does it look good on a TV or even full screen on a large monitor (that just about every single one of your customers is using DUH)?  No.

So if you are abandoning your customers in that we will no longer have a nice product to enjoy in the living room where this WAS intended, fine, it's your own head you are cutting off.  No on here is going to sit through 2-3 hours watching a mediocre youtube video at thier desk.

Watch that 8 orders turn into zero as soon as people discover this for themselves.

Here's a direct frame sample of the download version to the DVD version.  The difference is OBVIOUS and gets a LOT worse as you enlarge it.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2007, 03:33:45 PM »
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The biggest issue with the DVD download is downloading the 180,000 parts.  If it was a single ISO the DVD download would be awesome.  (And if I hadn't already signed up to receive a handful of downloads.)

Having seen both versions I have to say that if the future of this is watching it in sub full screen while reading Bill Simmons ESPN chat transcript on my other monitor I'm not sure I'll care.

Why don't you just publish it through lulu.com?  Those that want it can pay (publishing costs are like $7 a DVD through lulu) and have to futz with nothing except opening a package when it arrives.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2007, 05:13:29 PM »
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Chriss don't get me wrong I won't flame you but 24fps is just plain judder.
For video you need 59,94 to be exact for NTSC.
UNLESS you shoot on progressive HD, but than you need to feed it through a good deïnterlacer which can do a 3/2 pulldown which most people don't have.

Actually I have one and I can tell you that the downloads as they are now are REALLY very juddery on my projector.
I love to watch your beautiful work on the projector, I can't see myself sitting in front of my monitor for 2.5 hours, I already spend way too much time there.

Why not just do it this way (it's just an idea).

Drop all the downloads, drop the DVD.
Get ONE download file one large container/ISO file with the DVD the same you normally use to send out to the mastering facilities.
This way you don't have to do all the extra work, your mac or PC can decode the stuff almost real time nowadays whilst for H264 it's working like a night or two for 2.5 hours, and everyone is happy.

I'm even willing to pay 19.95 for my DVDs, heck even 24,95 if you want.
BUT PLEASE let me/us enjoy it on the bigscreen were the beautiful images belong.
The time of 32" displays is long gone, most people here own 42/50" plasmas or projectors and for example the Sri Lanka piece was absolutly breathtaking on the big screen.

You put so much work into the DVDs please don't ruin it by the so called hi-res downloads
If you want I can set it all up for you, we know how to make ISOs that everyone can read, you can send me by FTP the files I can make a downloadable ISO for you that everyone can burn, I can even shrink it down to 4.27GB if you want, you can download it one day later and put it online.

I'm willing to do this for free for you.
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2007, 05:47:24 PM »
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The DVD-Video files product has been available for a five days - traditionallly the strongest period for sales. The product has reached an astounding 8 (EIGHT) sales... I think it highly unlikely that I will repeat this exercise for LLVJ-17. The demand is not sufficient to justify the time that I spent on it 

Yes, but once DVD is no longer available, it will be a different story, I think.  A lot of us who don't want to give up DVD are waiting as long as possible.  We aren't in a big hurry to give up quality.  Your target audience for the high quality download may be waiting to see what shakes out.  As a matter of fact, if high quality is no longer available, I would cancel my subscription to LLVJ--and I am a charter subscriber (have all the DVD from Number 1 on).

--John
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frankric
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2007, 09:12:33 PM »
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Chris

I'm one of the eight   . I also bought the earlier 'mid-res'  downloads and I agree with the assessment that they looked good on the computer monitor at native size, but that's not how I want to watch the VJ either. Fine for tutorials etc, but not our LLVJ.....

I burnt a DVD from those 'mid-res' downloads using AoA DVD Creator. The result was sorta OK to watch on TV (SD PAL), but nowhere near the quality standards you had set for yourselves with earlier issues (I've got them all). I can imagine they would be downright awful on a good HD set. Also the lack of menus makes the whole thing a bit home videoish.

I think you may also be over estimating many people's willingness to mess around assembling files etc. Personally it doesn't bother me, but I know a few photographers who would pass on anything that required much more than pulling the DVD out of the package and popping it into the player.

I understand the bind you're in - although here in Western Australia the DVD has always arrived fairly promptly. However the volume of complaints about delivery on this forum made it obvious that you had to do something about it. On the other hand the fact that you had set high standards with your earlier productions means that there's bound to be disappointment when those standards are lowered - and there's no doubt in my mind that they have been lowered with the 'mid-res' downloads.

I hope you can find a satisfactory solution which avoids shipping of physical product, but at the same time maintains the high standards you have set for yourselves.

Regards

Frank
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kaelaria
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2007, 09:29:04 PM »
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I still don't understand the given explanation for why a simple ISO isn't available.  If you are having trouble creating one, we'll help you.  Bandwidth for us downloaders isn't an issue.  Downloading multi GB files is routine for anyone on a high speed connection, which everyone ordering is.

If your real problem is your lack of a high speed upload - that's solved with a simple upgrade to your service.  I find that is the true problem for most of these type operations.  I only have a 1M UL connection myself, and I know how long it can take to UL a few GB.
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mikealex
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2007, 10:24:37 PM »
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The problem is the store front software they are using doesn't support files that large. Chris tried to post an ISO image of the DVD, but when the store software puked on it, he had to find a way to divide it into smaller chunks.


Chris, I do appreciate the effort you have put into this. I'm shocked at the low volume of sales, and disappointed that you won't be pursuing this any further as a result. I urge you to give it one more attempt. You have the process figured out now, so it should be easier for LLVJ17.
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...Mike
kaelaria
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2007, 10:46:04 PM »
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I would bet the limitation is with the server PHP and Apache settings, I am not aware of a hard limit in Zen Cart.  

Can you define 'puked on it'?
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mikealex
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2007, 10:55:18 PM »
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You'll have to ask Chris for the gory details.

It's quite possible that it's the PHP settings. I'm not sure how much control they have over the server configuration (is it their server, or a shared server?), but he may just need to update the .htaccess file in the Zen Cart directory to fix the problem.
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...Mike
kaelaria
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2007, 11:11:53 PM »
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If it's shared, he would have to ask the host to change the settings which they may not do depending on circumstance.  The solution would then be to use a dedicated server with adaquate resources, and set the parameters correctly or have it done.

Most common of situations like this is the PHP memory limit set too small, or the timeout set too short.
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reyn_two
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2007, 01:40:14 AM »
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I do not understand how Michael and Chris after all their hard work devising and filming the projects can be happy with reducing the viewing pleasure for customers and their families, I know that if I was able to produce top quality stuff like this then I would want people to view it at it's best.

I think the handling of this conversion to download has missed the point that quite a few people want to watch it on TV in comfort.

Frank
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 01:45:13 AM by reyn_two » Logged
Woodcorner
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2007, 03:17:28 AM »
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I would very much appreciate the ISO file download and I'd be willing to spend a fair amount of money on it.

Nevertheless, as a current subscriber with a few more DVDs to be delivered before the end of my subscription, I see no need to convert at 1:1 to the download version as it is right now. It only takes a few days to receive the DVD by mail and it is far easier to wait a little than to download and burn the DVD. *But*, if the only way to receive a really high quality version of LLVJ is to download an ISO file and burn it it myself, I will do so. I assume that a lot of current subscribers feel the same about ISO downloads!

The reduced quality of the Hi-Res download imost certainly no option for me. I have seen it, and I didn't like the quality on my TV set. If this will be the only version LLVJ is delivered, I will let my subscription end with the last DVD delivered at my doorstep.

Chris, please re-consider your decision regarding ISO downloads!

Cheers,

Andrew
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michael
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2007, 08:22:49 AM »
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In any business it is necessary to listen to customer feedback, but also to weigh demands against resources.

The move to download from DVD is an economic necessity. It is also one that has been met by considerable customer support. But, there have been objections, and so we are tying to find compromise. Putting an 4.1GB ISO version online for people to download is one such attempt.

But, when actual customer response is so slim as to make the effort / reward ratio so small as to render the exercise moot, one has to wonder how worthwhile continuing to do so might be.

In everything we do  Chris and I need to balance demand against resources. Several people voiced displeasure at the loss of image quality with downloads. Fine. Understood. But when we offer an alternative, to then have only a handful of people take advantage forces us to consider our future plans accordingly.

In the best of all possible worlds we would like nothing better than to please everyone. But that's clearly not possible. So what we will do is to try and please as large an audience as possible within the constraints of the time and other resources available to us.

Michael
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bob mccarthy
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2007, 11:46:56 AM »
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Yes, but once DVD is no longer available, it will be a different story, I think.  A lot of us who don't want to give up DVD are waiting as long as possible.  We aren't in a big hurry to give up quality.  Your target audience for the high quality download may be waiting to see what shakes out.  As a matter of fact, if high quality is no longer available, I would cancel my subscription to LLVJ--and I am a charter subscriber (have all the DVD from Number 1 on).

--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely on the mark.

The DVD delivery method is working better this time.

I have fios so downloads are not an issue. I just want the smooth quality of the current mailed dvd or better. I may watch any given video like the lightroon update as an low IQ download.

But, LL is for my eyes too and the dvd is the appropriate way.

Bob
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kaelaria
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2007, 11:53:20 AM »
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Can't you see you have not made a fair comparison??

You are still shipping DVDs.  Most people still want a DVD and still got one, either alone or through subscription.

The download was offered far in advance and was cheap - I bet many people tried it.  So far it looks like every single one of them that posts here said it sucks in comparison.  Nevertheless we bougth it.

If you actually thought many people would be spending MORE money to get the same content, you're on another planet.  Sure, some of us that wanted to have both version sjust because ordered the DVD download after you finally released it.  Most will of course NOT because they already saw the show.

If the next Episode comes out as DVD download ONLY and you have low support, THEN you can cry about low turnout.

How about you tell us how many DVDs have shiped, how many low res downloads were sold and how many high res downloads were sold?  THAT is the only meaningfull data right now if you are going to claim it 'wasn't worth it'.  I still think there's another real reason.

No matter what, if a full res version be it download or mailed is not available for all future versions, my purchases will end with the last one released.  I vote with my money.

I'm off my soapbox now, it's clear you guys have made up your minds for whatever hidden reason.  Good luck, you guys produced some awesome work up till now.  Too bad in the future people won't be able to fully experience it.
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2007, 11:54:01 AM »
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Nevertheless, as a current subscriber with a few more DVDs to be delivered before the end of my subscription, I see no need to convert at 1:1 to the download version as it is right now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125890\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I feel the same way and will also wait for my current DVD subscription to end before considering the download option.  I hope that the ability to d/l a high quality ISO file will be offered.

Paul
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 11:55:39 AM by PaulS » Logged

michael
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2007, 01:45:18 PM »
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"Hidden reason"? Ya, right.

This is a two person operation with a part time customer support person and a part time technical support person. Our "hidden reason" is simply one of time and resources.

We're doing the best that we can. If you find it wanting, then go ahead and "vote with your dollars".

Michael
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