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Author Topic: 48mm x 48mm Sensor  (Read 35374 times)
nik
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2007, 05:48:31 PM »
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Isn't it the other way around? By that I mean a back manufacturer had to have ASKED for it to be made. I doubt Dalsa or Kodak just make these expensive sensors and wait for them to sell. So who was it?

Although I'd like the Hy6 to be  the 1st platform to utilize a 48*48 chip, I wouldn't be surprised if Hasselblad get there 1st with a square chip to attach to all the V series cameras out there, or even adapt the H series to it, let's face it, their platform is king of the hill right now even if the H series is less than ideal, a LOT of people are buying  it and rentals are doing very well too.
We don't hear too much of them in terms of developments / rumors, I guess they have their heads down working on a few surprises themselves, maybe one of them is in terms of a larger sensor.

-Nik


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this sensor already exists in Dalsa's drawer!

The question is if the backmakers decide to take it.

Thierry
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2007, 07:00:26 PM »
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I wouldn't be surprised if Hasselblad get there 1st with a square chip to attach to all the V series cameras out there, or even adapt the H series to it,

I very much doubt that the V series will be resurrected in that way. It just can't compete with some of the newer platforms with its half f-stops, lack of metering and auto exposure modes, lack of autofocus, lack of digital integration, etc. The Hy6 would beat it in almost every possible respect.

The H series can't be adapted to 48x48 because the viewfinder can't be enlarged to show the whole image, and the lenses aren't designed with a sufficient image circle. Just makes no sense at all.

I can only see the 48x48mm back going on a Hy6/AFi or maybe even a Mamiya RZ67 via an adapter.

Personally I'd rather see a full-frame 645 chip (42x56mm) which I won't be cropping 99% of the time. If a chip has to be square then why not 56x56mm?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 07:37:26 PM by foto-z » Logged

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2007, 07:23:03 PM »
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Personally I'd rather see a full-frame 645 chip (42x56mm) which I won't be 99% of the time. If a chip has to be square then why not 56x56mm?
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Hassy probably won't support that one... if I am not mistaken, their latest 28 mm only covers 36 x 48 mm, right...

I don't see Kodak investing money in a format that one of their main customer isn't likely to use. Now Dalsa might be different...

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2007, 07:45:59 PM »
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Hassy probably won't support that one... if I am not mistaken, their latest 28 mm only covers 36 x 48 mm, right...

I don't see Kodak investing money in a format that one of their main customer isn't likely to use. Now Dalsa might be different...

Cheers,
Bernard
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The lens creates an image circle, so in THEORY it could produce the 48 x 48mm image.  Things that may cause a problem include the rear lens baffle, the mirror, obstructions in the mount, etc.  It's at least plausible that the 28mm lens could produce a 48x48 image circle.
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2007, 10:21:21 PM »
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No comment, as said in earlier posts: it makes no sense to speculate on something which might take years until available.

And to be honest, although discussions have surely taken place, I am not informed (yet).

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And, Thierry, how about Sinar's willpower to use this 48mm x 48mm CCD?
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2007, 10:24:22 PM »
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Dear Nik,

Sometimes it is one way around, sometimes the other: this time Dalsa have developped this sensor (and even much bigger = see one of my earlier posts a few weeks ago) and is looking to be able to sell it.

But they certainly won't go in production stage unless they get firm order(s).

Best reggards,
Thierry

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Isn't it the other way around? By that I mean a back manufacturer had to have ASKED for it to be made. I doubt Dalsa or Kodak just make these expensive sensors and wait for them to sell. So who was it?

-Nik
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2007, 10:31:40 PM »
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Dear Ed,

Yes, they are!  

Such a decision has to be thought over: there are much more aspects than being the technological leader by having the biggest sensor and the possible resulting sales potential . The risk factors are at least as important, if not more.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Oh, backmakers are such pussies     

Ed

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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM »
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GBPhoto,

Yes, you are right.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the stitching happens in the exposure phase on a single wafer.  It's not stitching 6 separate chips together.  So, you still need a relatively large, relatively flawless continuous area of silicon.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2007, 10:46:09 PM »
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If Dalsa already makes this CCD (see Thierry's comment) and its main back making customers (Leaf and Sinar) have the camera under their own brand name to use it (the Hy6/AFi), why would they not make a back to max out the advantage of that camera? Isn't competition about exploiting your unique selling points?
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Sure, I agree 100% with you on this.

Regards,
Bernard
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nik
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2007, 02:29:06 AM »
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A square chip in a DB is an absolute certainty in my view. You don't place an order with a camera manufacturer for a square format camera that will accept lenses specifically made to cover square and then only produce 4:3 backs for it. It's a bit late don't you think? The thousands of man hours spent developing the camera's optimum shape, size and weight distribution for square would be wasted, not to mention the time spent on lens design to cover this format. Can anyone from Schneider offer any input or validate this?

No disrespect, but being a pussy is one thing, being stupid is another!

-Nik

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Dear Ed,

Yes, they are!   

Such a decision has to be thought over: there are much more aspects than being the technological leader by having the biggest sensor and the possible resulting sales potential . The risk factors are at least as important, if not more.

Best regards,
Thierry
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mcfoto
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2007, 03:10:52 AM »
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Hi
If they do come out with a square chip being Dalsa for Leaf & Sinar. They will also have to make one for the Mamiya 6x7 format. Personally I don't see the advantage to square.
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thsinar
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2007, 03:17:07 AM »
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Dear Nik,

you are certainly 100% right, absolutely! No question about that.

My point is: such a decision has to be thought over carefully, and having all the aspects and risks in front of the eyes. All these considered, the decision can go in both directions.

And more over, even if the decision to go with it is taken, it is not for TOMORROW!

So why speak and speculate about something which is not here and ready, and which might take certainly more than a year to be in the market?

Others and myself have been much "criticized" here (no harm for me) for speaking about the Hy6 when it was launched during Photokina. And it was an officially announced product.

Best regards,
Thierry

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A square chip in a DB is an absolute certainty in my view. You don't place an order with a camera manufacturer for a square format camera that will accept lenses specifically made to cover square and then only produce 4:3 backs for it. It's a bit late don't you think? The thousands of man hours spent developing the camera's optimum shape, size and weight distribution for square would be wasted, not to mention the time spent on lens design to cover this format. Can anyone from Schneider offer any input or validate this?

No disrespect, but being a pussy is one thing, being stupid is another!

-Nik
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Thierry Hagenauer
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rethmeier
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2007, 03:39:51 AM »
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For me personally a Hy6 with a rotating 36x48mm MFDB would be all I want.
For my work  the file-size that comes out of my eMotion 75LV is more than large enough.
After I sold my Blad and went to the RZ and after that the Fuji GX680 I really enjoyed the rotating
backs.
Now I'm waiting to take delivery of the Hy6 and  that's the camera for me.
I was forever cropping my Polaroids with the 6x6 Blads.
However,if Sinar,Phase or Leaf will come out with a square sensor there will be lots of users that
want a larger and square file.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 03:41:56 AM by rethmeier » Logged

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nik
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2007, 08:59:26 AM »
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Dear Nik,

So why speak and speculate about something which is not here and ready, and which might take certainly more than a year to be in the market?

Best regards,
Thierry
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Because it's been a slow week work-wise and I'm bored. Thankfully next week looks better. Drinks are on you at Photokina '08 if my speculation was right.

-Nik
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2007, 10:30:26 AM »
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Dear Thierry,

Could you please elaborate us on all the aspects and risks that are involved in a decision to use a larger and probably square CCD in a Sinar back?

I believe Thierry is referring to the business risk, not the technical merits of the chip itself.
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« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2007, 05:57:35 PM »
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Willem, didn't you think it was a nice luxury to be able to crop afterwards? And also: do you never want to use real wide angles anymore? A larger CCD does not nessesarily have to lead to larger files. A 45MP or 50MP 56mm x 56mm back would just be fantastic, I think. Lower noise, higher ISO values. Everything is already there: the lenses, the cameras, the routine. The waiting for is that full frame back to make it all work the way it did with film.
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Epd,
I would be happy with a 50MP 56x56 full frame sensor.
At the moment I have a four year lease on my e-75LV and I won't be upgrading till then.
It will have to do for now.
Like I said before,I prefer to frame the image while I shoot and the images are always either
landscape or portrait.
Very rarely square.
WR.
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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2007, 07:15:21 PM »
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I very much doubt that the V series will be resurrected in that way. It just can't compete with some of the newer platforms with its half f-stops, lack of metering and auto exposure modes, lack of autofocus, lack of digital integration, etc. The Hy6 would beat it in almost every possible respect.
-foto-z
I think there are so many V systems gear around the world waiting for the right dback at the right price, that it doesnít need to be resurrected. Dback makers could easily profit from existing V system. Of course, Hy6 would be beat it, but at an extra $ 20k usd for body, lenses and accessories. I think shooting raw, half stops are not a real necesity.
Eduardo

---------

A square chip in a DB is an absolute certainty in my view. You don't place an order with a camera manufacturer for a square format camera that will accept lenses specifically made to cover square and then only produce 4:3 backs for it. It's a bit late don't you think? The thousands of man hours spent developing the camera's optimum shape, size and weight distribution for square would be wasted, not to mention the time spent on lens design to cover this format. Can anyone from Schneider offer any input or validate this?
No disrespect, but being a pussy is one thing, being stupid is another!
-Nik
I agree with you Nik. I see a 6X6 sensor for the near future. However
putting a rectangular sensor in it, itís not a waste of resources. It just shows the versatilty of the original idea. And that was not to have to keep turning the camera from hor to vert, over and over. In the digital era, since sensor area is such an expensive comodity, rectangular sensors make economic sense. Film was (still is) so inexpensive, that having the extra room didnít make any real harm in our pockets.
Eduardo  

---------

If they do come out with a square chip being Dalsa for Leaf & Sinar. They will also have to make one for the Mamiya 6x7 format. Personally I don't see the advantage to square.
-mcphoto
I believe square is actually a convenience from the film era, not an advantage. Just, it caught up with many photographers and square format became favorite for many photographers doing portraits, weddings and whimsical landscapes among other things.
Eduardo

--------

Everything is already there: the lenses, the cameras, the routine. The waiting for is that full frame back to make it all work the way it did with film.
-Epd
Exactly. Its already out there (inside thousands of drawers).  Now, we donít need more megapixels, we need sensors that aproach or equal film sizes. Iím sure if Canon were a MF maker too, they already had a full-frame sensor. So, maybe itís just a power war among sensor makers and mf gear makers.
Eduardo

You are right Nik, itís been a long boring week.
Best regards all
Eduardo
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thsinar
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2007, 08:26:18 PM »
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Dear EPd,

See foto-z's comment: so it is, and I was thinking that I had been clear and precise in my explanation. What puzzles me, is that you seem so well aware about all and can't figure out the risks involved.

And I don't want to speculate simply because I prefer speaking about things I know (or think to know). This means that I simply don't know (as already said) and it has nothing to do with future plans of my employer or harming sales. You are suggesting that it is a simple matter, that one has just to drop the new sensor in its casing and then the new digital back is ready to hit the market. My experience of the past shows me that one has to be careful with such statements.

I cannot speak for other companies, but wish to clear your statement about "stretching the wallet of customers or potential customers", concerning Sinar: no, this is definitively not our philosophy, and our nearly 50 years of existence in this professional market is a little prove of it.

And as for myself and my suggestions of investing to a photographer ready or willing to invest (being it into a view camera or into a digital back), or even willing to upgrade his current system, my own philosophy has always been to know first his REAL needs and possibilities: there are many photographers out who know me and who would tell you that although ready to buy the top of the line of our analog cameras or digital backs, I have suggested them to start slowly by investing in either a f1 or f2 camera, or then to make their first steps into digital with a lower resolution instead of buying the top of the line and most expensive, when I was feeling they didn't need more or couldn't afford more, or that the technical possibilities of what I was suggesting was enough for them . My guess is, that there are others out, either colleagues or from other companies, sharing the same philosophy and acting the same way.

So yes, we are in the same boat and we strongly feel so, and that is what has always driven my acts.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Dear Thierry,

Could you please elaborate us on all the aspects and risks that are involved in a decision to use a larger and probably square CCD in a Sinar back? What puzzles me is that the CCD is readily available, it uses known interpolation technique since it is just an enlarged piece of silicon and has the same Bayer pattern as smaller ones, and it works with the same electrical technique as the current CCDs Sinar uses. What would make it take years to implement this larger CCD when the underlying technique is readily available? (This is not meant as a rhetorical question, but one I would like to get an answer to.) Also, Yair, feel free to chime in on this subject.

I can understand that you don't want to "speculate" here. Speaking about future plans of your employer could harm today's sales and we all understand that companies always try to stretch their customer's wallets to the max, preferably for a long period of time. That's just plain business. However, stretching wallets untill they snap would be the end of all business in this area. I have known several photographers who went broke only because of their very high investments in digital technology that became obsolete long before they had reached their return on investment. It's not just the digital back makers that take risks here. We are all in the same boat and some more solidarity from the back makers with the photographers would be most welcome, IMHO.

Regards,
EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2007, 08:33:43 PM »
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Understood, Nik!

As for the beer at PK '08: I already owe one to "eronald", that would definitively be a "though" PK for me!

Thierry

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Because it's been a slow week work-wise and I'm bored. Thankfully next week looks better. Drinks are on you at Photokina '08 if my speculation was right.

-Nik
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2007, 10:42:58 PM »
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Dear Thierry,

Like you I prefer not to speculate whenever this is not needed. I could think of many both business risks as well as development risks for the making of DB's with larger sensors, but why dreaming it up? So I was asking you since I would expect you to be an expert in this specific field. If one has access to an expert, why not ask? Generally this is how I become so well informed.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125999\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I am may be an expert in my field, though never having pretended so, but even experts don't know it all (see my introduction post, when I joined LLF).

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I'm not suggesting anything but I am raising obvious questions. I was actually asking about specific experiences that could tell us why it is not so easy to develop a new version of a DB, when a lot of basic techniques seem to be there already. Your experience with past matters would be very interesting to hear about in detail. You seem to suggest that it is not just business risks involved here, rather technical risks as well. I would love to learn about those. Perhaps you will tell things that I already knew, but more likely you will have to add useful information to my knowledge base. And that of the others reading this as well.
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See above.

There no specific technical risks, rather uncertainties about timing and readiness for the market. I think everybody has experienced this, when companies are announcing a new product (being it a DB maker or other companies in other fields of high-tech) and how is the reality as opposed to the announcement. I am not an expert in this field, but I have experienced delays, due to issues which did not turn out the way they should have or have been thought they would. All I am saying is that it is dangerous to make any timing statement for a new product.

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To me it seems that this 50 years of existence is the very proof of Sinar's ability to stretch the customer's wallet.
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That is your opinion, which many do not share. You have the right to have this opinion and I respect it.

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I have been watching Sinar's offerings for a loooong time, but I have never found anything that suggested Sinar tried to break down high prices of professional photo gear. On the contrary, they have always been in the forefront of highest priced companies. Now, before we go into the semantics of pricing: I do not want to suggest that anything would be wrong with that per se, or that Sinar's products would not be of high quality. Most of them are. But they come at a very high price, even for photographers who can afford them.
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You probably know the costs of living in Switzerland, and what that means for a Swiss company, in the photographic field or else. You probably also know that a company's budget is calculated with a certain gross margin which ensures that the company is viable. And this gross margin is adapted to the market price realities.

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Now you are speculating, Thierry. I personally have very different experiences with representatives from both Sinar and other companies. No grudge here, but they surely aren't always angels.
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It is simply too easy to "accuse" somebody of speculations by being anonymous: I have said it in an earlier post. I would be pleased to put a name on you, other than EPd, the same way you are putting my name Thierry on my posts. It is also too easy to badmouth about representatives (being it from Sinar or other companies). And you should read what I have written: "there are others out ... sharing the same philosophy...". I am well aware that not all are "angels".


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Thanks, I'll remember that.

Best regards,
EPd
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Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 10:46:52 PM by thsinar » Logged

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