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Author Topic: LEAF AFI IN THE HANDS OF...  (Read 17476 times)
bcroslin
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2007, 08:26:57 PM »
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the hand-grip is not removable.
So the grip adjusts? Ahhhhhh....I get it.

 
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Bob Croslin, Photographer
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thsinar
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2007, 08:35:30 PM »
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YES, Bob! 4 different positions.

 

Thierry

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So the grip adjusts? Ahhhhhh....I get it.

 
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Thierry Hagenauer
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uaiomex
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2007, 08:59:30 PM »
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I droppped 2 Hasselblad backs in a period of 18 years. I've never dropped a camera or a lens.

I would take a 6008 with a revolving back (proper name) any day over a Hy6 with re-attach!

I know, Thierry already said an adapter is coming. I figured it out, since Mamiya did it right 30 years ago.

A 6X6 camera with a 645 back needs a revolving adapter as an 18-wheeler needs to bend.
A 7X7 camera with a 6X7 back needs.......................  (RB-RZ)

Regards

Eduardo
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uaiomex
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2007, 09:09:50 PM »
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The Bronica 6X7 never took off. It was lighter than the Mamiya but lacked the revolving back.

Let's hope the people at Sinar did their homework.

Regards

Eduardo
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Khun_K
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2007, 09:17:09 PM »
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YES, Bob! 4 different positions.

 

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Look thru the viewfinder the prism is coinsidered quite bright to me and did not add much weight to the camera so the entire package is still a very portable unit to use in the field. It is to be noted even it is not considered a final release, the prism fitted to the camera quite stable, you will feel it is a stronger prism than that on the H3D.
The grip is rotatable, 4 positions, and lock into each of the 4 positions very positively. The grip mechanism is permanently attached to the body and cannot be removed so it is physically very secured. And the grip also house the battery. This is different than the H3D that the batery itself is a part of the grip that although I have no experience of battery coming out in active use, the H3D grip design does not give you the same security.
The rotatable back adapter is more or less a question of when the final test to be done and released to market rather than a yes or no.  Being the only AF 6X6 digital platform in the market today, at least it is fair to say the design of the body has such a coming feature that none of the existing medium format platform can offer at such a small package and weight. And may be for the first time I will not find good use of the L plate I put on both Contax and H3D39.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2007, 09:21:38 PM »
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Removing a back not only outside but also in the heats and stresses of big shoot is a big hazard to me. It is actually very easy to scrach the sensor and I for one did it in the past. I will not even attempt it  anymore without comfortable sitting down and taking my time. For now my back sits and rotates on Rz and untill there will be a rotating adapter I will not even consider new system.
Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
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thsinar
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« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2007, 09:42:05 PM »
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Dear Andre

Did you try the Hy6 with a 180mm? If yes, I doubt you have found the H series (or others) to be any lighter or less "pulling you forward", in the contrary.

As for users with other backs: it has always been the back manufacturer which has been responsible to provide adapters for a given camera platform, not the other way round, thus the question should be answered by those back nanufacturers, not by Sinar (as said in earlier treads already).

Best regards,
Thierry

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Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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hcubell
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« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2007, 10:38:28 PM »
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The rotatable back adapter is more or less a question of when the final test to be done and released to market rather than a yes or no.  Being the only AF 6X6 digital platform in the market today, at least it is fair to say the design of the body has such a coming feature that none of the existing medium format platform can offer at such a small package and weight. And may be for the first time I will not find good use of the L plate I put on both Contax and H3D39.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Possibly dumb question: after you rotate the back on the Hy6, what do you see in the viewfinder? Is the 645 cropped viewfinder image still in horizontal mode?
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Khun_K
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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2007, 11:18:55 PM »
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Removing a back not only outside but also in the heats and stresses of big shoot is a big hazard to me. It is actually very easy to scrach the sensor and I for one did it in the past. I will not even attempt it  anymore without comfortable sitting down and taking my time. For now my back sits and rotates on Rz and untill there will be a rotating adapter I will not even consider new system.
Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I found the Hy6-e75 with 80mm lens felt quite balanced. I have the 180mm (physically big but not heavy) and 90mm makro and I think they also balance with the Hy6 well. I do not have the 60-140mm and may be this lens will be a bit too heavy, but this is also the fact with 50-110 on H3D. Contax 645 on the other hand, have overall smaller size of lenses (except 350/4 Apo-Tessar which has its own tripod collar) and balance well with the body and digital back. Since Hy6 lenses are closer to the size of Contax lenses, although haven't tried all the lenses, I think it is safe to assume the handling of Hy6 with most of its lenses will be quite good.
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2007, 03:09:26 AM »
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I'm still trying to decide which MF system to bankrupt myself with but having handheld the H3D with 50-110 zoom for over two hours I was surprised that it felt, if anything, more comfortable/less painful then my 1Ds2 with 70-200 zoom. (I'm only average build - about 5' 10 at the start of the day down to 5' 9 by the end!) The balance felt better on the H3D - maybe the grip helped. The Canon/70-200 definitely feels like it is pulling forward. The Canon clearly has the edge for "pointability" though, as you'd expect.
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Khun_K
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2007, 05:44:53 AM »
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I'm still trying to decide which MF system to bankrupt myself with but having handheld the H3D with 50-110 zoom for over two hours I was surprised that it felt, if anything, more comfortable/less painful then my 1Ds2 with 70-200 zoom. (I'm only average build - about 5' 10 at the start of the day down to 5' 9 by the end!) The balance felt better on the H3D - maybe the grip helped. The Canon/70-200 definitely feels like it is pulling forward. The Canon clearly has the edge for "pointability" though, as you'd expect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just came back from a 2 weeks vocation in Tibet not long ago, with Leica M8 and H3D39 with some lenses, include HC 50-110 and HC 300/4.5, I can tell you H3D39 with 50-110 attached to carry for 2 hours will be very tough for me.  Apart from the ergonomic issue, the Lowepro AW back pack I have can put a Conax 645 body+P45, 4 extra P45 battery, 35mm, 55mm, 45-90mm, 120 makro, 210mm and 350/4 but can only out a H3D39, 28mm, 35mm, 50-110mm, 120mm and 80mm and 2 spare batteries.  The system accessory is also an issue. With H3D system, you will end up needing 67mm, 77mm, 95mm filters and with Contax it is only 72mm and 95mm. My finding on H3D is that the grip feels good when you are shooting, but you need to try when you are not shooting and carry the camera around just holding the grip.
I shoot a lot of fashion in location, many times need to use a bron-color ring flash attached to the camera, with the ring flash and powerpack considered, and the camera and lenses, I must say Hy6 is extremely tempting for its size and weight and the possibility of custom of holding the camera in one orientation and just rotate the back.
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hcubell
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2007, 08:28:36 AM »
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The Hy6 has a square viewfinder with indicators for horizontal and vertical 6x4.5 crops.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So, all you have are frame lines. The area of the finder that is outside the frame of the sensor is not blacked out. This seems similar to the viewing experience with a rangefinder with frame lines. I personally do not care for this as a viewfinder experience. I much prefer the experience of looking through a full frame viewfinder that shows me exactly what the the image will look like. I just find it more effective for composing an image. If I were shooting portraits, I could definitely see making the compromise in the viewing experience so that I could work with the camera in vertical mode without flipping the camera over. For landscape work where I am always shooting off a tripod, I would strongly prefer to work with a full frame viewfinder like the H3D and an L bracket. Different tools for different needs.
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2007, 08:42:43 AM »
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I just came back from a 2 weeks vocation in Tibet not long ago, with Leica M8 and H3D39 with some lenses, include HC 50-110 and HC 300/4.5, I can tell you H3D39 with 50-110 attached to carry for 2 hours will be very tough for me. Apart from the ergonomic issue, the Lowepro AW back pack I have can put a Conax 645 body+P45, 4 extra P45 battery, 35mm, 55mm, 45-90mm, 120 makro, 210mm and 350/4 but can only out a H3D39, 28mm, 35mm, 50-110mm, 120mm and 80mm and 2 spare batteries. The system accessory is also an issue. With H3D system, you will end up needing 67mm, 77mm, 95mm filters and with Contax it is only 72mm and 95mm. My finding on H3D is that the grip feels good when you are shooting, but you need to try when you are not shooting and carry the camera around just holding the grip.
I shoot a lot of fashion in location, many times need to use a bron-color ring flash attached to the camera, with the ring flash and powerpack considered, and the camera and lenses, I must say Hy6 is extremely tempting for its size and weight and the possibility of custom of holding the camera in one orientation and just rotate the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe I should have emphasised that the Ids2 with 70-200/24-70 feels really heavy for me after a couple of hours - aching wrists, etc, but the H3D/50-110 wasn't quite so heavy. Still not easy, but not as bad as I had expected after reading some of the posts in LL. I took less shots with the H3D than I would normally do with the Canon, and so was not in such a strained position for so long and maybe that was a factor.

I have still to really try the Mamiya and Contax, although I think the Contax is out for me - sadly as I love the brand - because of the UK servicing situation and the lack of a 28mm lens. So I, like many others, am looking forward to giving the Hy6 a workout. (Is there a 28mm lens in the pipeline?) From your posts, you seem to rate it from all aspects.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 09:33:15 AM by stewarthemley » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2007, 10:04:09 AM »
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So, all you have are frame lines.

No, there are no frame lines. It is a semi-opaque mask.
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pss
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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2007, 12:13:49 PM »
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i have to agree with the last post....i am not sure why people are concerned about having OPTIONS? if you don't want to take the back off because you are in a sandstorm...just do what you would have to do with any 645....rotate the camera...not sure where the problem is....does anyone really think that a rotating back keeps the elements out? i would never rotate the back on my RZ on the beach..exposed to salt and sand....i can just hear the sound!

of course the finder has masks....and i am pretty sure it is very much like the one i look through every day in the RZ...looks like a very fat cross....very clean, no problmes at all...if you don't like it...get 2 mask and change them...or just put one in and rotate the camera....which is what you are doing now.....

i have owned the 6008 with the 180....i have shot the H2 with the zoom.....there is no comparison....not sure if the zoom is actually that much heavier...but the way you can hold the 180 with a WLF infront of your body distributes teh weight s much better....i was not able to hold the H with the zoom vertical infront of my face for more then 2-3 minutes at a time....had to put it down in between....i won't even go into detail what that did to my manual focus %.....
of course this is considering my work which is taking 100s of shots, constantly focussing and moving....

there is no question, everybody shoots different, but either way, i don't see how the Hy6 would not be able to satisfy any needs....how a 645 could do something the hy6 could not....

as much as i love the RZ with all its simple function and versatility...the Hy6 can do everything and it does a few things better and is just as versatile...while being a lot smaller and handier....

i think anyone who hasn't worked with a 6000 series camera should just go and check the Hy6 out before asking about the grip or rotation or screen....because once you hold it and see it, it all becomes much clearer, some things cannot be explained...they have to be experienced......for better or for worse......maybe then decide it isn't for you at all.....
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KAP
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« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2007, 12:24:43 PM »
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Looks a nice set up to me, I like the future square idea.
 The 90 degree and the handgrip look ideal for what I do, add a revolving back and I'm sorted. Not that I'm going to be one of first to buy and find out what it doesn't do that you thought it would.


Kevin.
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hcubell
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2007, 01:26:56 PM »
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hcubell, nobody says you couldn't drop a black mask into the viewfinder or replace the ground glass with its indicators, just as you could always do with the 6008 and the 645 back. And nobody says you couldn't use your beloved L-bracket. There are just several ways to go with this camera. Maybe that's what confuses you, options to choose how to use your camera? Fewer tools for different needs.

The answer to all this whining over rotatable backs and framing would be in using a full frame square CCD which would allow for in-back cropping, thus making possible all orientation wanted. You could do vertical, horizontal, shift left, shift right, shift up and shift down. And square of course. Unfortunately the toy shop doesn't have these backs in stock yet, but at least you know that the camera capable of supporting it is coming soon. I know, it always seems such a long time before Santa comes when it's still summer and you are hanging out with your friends in the pool, drewling over the new water gun you want.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you suggesting that whenever you think you MAY want to shoot a vertical and you have a black mask in the finder, you first rotate the back, then you remove the prism, reorient the black mask, and replace the prism? Don't like the composition? OK, start over! Wow. Photography as self-flaggelation.
The only thing more bizarre to me is extolling the Hy6's ability to accomadate a 48x48mm sensor, something that does not exist today, may never exist, and if it does exist, at who knows what price. In that regard, your reference to Santa in describing the wait for the arrival of a MFDB with such a sensor seems, unintentionally, quite apt.
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yaya
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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2007, 02:56:33 PM »
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Are you suggesting that whenever you think you MAY want to shoot a vertical and you have a black mask in the finder, you first rotate the back, then you remove the prism, reorient the black mask, and replace the prism? Don't like the composition? OK, start over! Wow. Photography as self-flaggelation.
The only thing more bizarre to me is extolling the Hy6's ability to accomadate a 48x48mm sensor, something that does not exist today, may never exist, and if it does exist, at who knows what price. In that regard, your reference to Santa in describing the wait for the arrival of a MFDB with such a sensor seems, unintentionally, quite apt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125007\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Imagine seeing this through the finder:


...which is what 1000s of photographers have been seeing on RZs, RBs, 680s, all V-series and all LF cameras for the last 9 years or so (when the first rectangle 6MP Philips chip came out.

Is that clear enough now? Still bizarre?

Yair
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2007, 04:09:19 PM »
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As for the 48mm x 48mm CCD: it's in the works but will not likely hit the market before halfway next year. It remains to be seen if it will be embraced by the back makers, but SinarBron is already anticipating 56mm x 56mm sensors here: http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Seems to me foolish not to think ALL MFDB mfrs. are working on this. It's do or die world out there. One mfr ups the ante by releasing (or just announcing) a back with increased features and quality, the others follow suit as quickly as they can, some go one step further by announcing what they "thinking about" for the future.... don't want to be perceived as falling behind!

Until you can put it in your hands AND it works as promised it's all PR hype and a setup for frustration and disappointment, as announced release dates continually get pushed, which are then followed by promises of firmware updates to address flaws in prematurely released product by HQ.

But it's fun to fantasize and think it's right around the corner, will work perfectly, and the price will HAVE to be $10k because of the ZD, right?
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hcubell
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« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2007, 04:33:44 PM »
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I am suggesting the following:

1. Use a black mask with a rectangle cutout in your favored position and turn the camera using your L-bracket or by handholding it.

2. Use a black mask with a cross cutout, so that you can revolve the back and get a good indication of what you are going to see. This involves being able to see how a vertical shot would look while you are busy composing horizontally. Probably too distracting for you.

3. Use no mask at all and simply follow the hairline indications to see what a vertical or horizontal composition will look like. Like in cinema cameras this can be very handy to keep unwanted objects out of your frame because you can see them nearing. Probably also too distracting for you.

4. Shoot square. Probably too... square for you.

If any of the above is not to your liking, don't use this camera and find one that dynamically changes its viewfinder with black borders, in accordance with your back's position.

As for the 48mm x 48mm CCD: it's in the works but will not likely hit the market before halfway next year. It remains to be seen if it will be embraced by the back makers, but SinarBron is already anticipating 56mm x 56mm sensors here: http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

1. "My" L bracket? I have two, one for a Pentax 67II and one for an H series Hasselblad. Which of the two would YOU use on a Hy6?
2.You are right. I dislike distractions, inefficient use of finder real estate, kludges, etc. I like WYSIWYG.
3. Same as above. Plus, as a landscape photographer, the only objects approaching from outside the frame that I need to concern myself with are people walking into my field of view. That does not strike me as a reason to make such inefficient use of the finder real estate.
4. Square is sometimes good, but the sensor is NOT square. The sensor that the camera is being sold with is 645. The Hy6 just seems to be a round hole trying to meet a square peg. A 6x6 camera masquerading as a 645. The camera should have been built from the ground up to make the most effective use of the sensors that exist today in commercial quantities at price points that work in the marketplace. My sense is that people buy based upon what works today and don't fork over $35K for features on the come.
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