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Author Topic: I AM PISSED AT LEAF!!!!  (Read 7769 times)
AndreNapier
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« on: July 02, 2007, 11:40:32 PM »
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QUOTE(pprdigital @ Jul 2 2007, 09:53 PM)
The intent (at least in the US) was to upgrade the Aptus to Aptus S by placing the existing sensor and LCD into an all new housing. To perform this, additional technical support was brought into the US from Israel for an intensive period of upgrading.

However, due to the difficulty (not surprising) in scheduling photographers to provide their Aptus units on cue, the idea of getting all of the upgrades done in a condensed period has gone by the board and instead, new swapped units appear to be the easier and more expedient method of going from Aptus to Aptus S.

There can be exceptions to this, but these should be discussed with your dealer. For now, it appears that Leaf has moved to swaps rather than upgrades - good news in most cases. In either case, it's a very fast turnaround.

That's why refurbs are becoming available.

Steve Hendrix
PPR
www.ppratlanta.com
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And now I am very PISSED. Very F....PISSED!!!
Swapping was the original agreement I had with LEAF. I am not an idiot and I clearly know what was said to me when I signed for the upgrade 6 months ago. I heard it from Bob Bresson and I heard it from Rick Adshead. When my time for an upgrade came up I was told that upgrade is an upgrade and not a swap. I brought it up in this forum and once again was told that there is no swap nor that one was ever intended and that I had to misunderstand the meaning of upgrade. Hard to misunderstand the intentions if my Rep originally 6 months ago promised to bring the new 75S to my studio for a check before I would release my 75 to him. Last week I called everybody inside Leaf HQ and was informed that the only way I will see an upgrade is by sending my unit in for replacement of the electronics only. I told Leaf that they flip flap on what they promised and again was made to feel like a retard. NO SWAPS MISTER. No loaners neither for a time of upgrading. I booked off 4 days from my studio busy time at the additional lost of thousands of dollars to get the " upgrade" . Five days ago I got my old back upgraded. Still the same
beat up housing etc. and now I read THIS. Yair, Steve my old personal friends I am PISSED and when I am pissed I am worst than my wife and you guys know what I mean.
VERY CRUDE of Leaf and one less client even if I have to shoot with Pentacon6 from now on.
I had been with PhaseOne for six years before moving to Leaf and was never made to feel this way dealing with them. I may have an foreign accent, I might be making spelling mistakes but I can clearly feel when someone tries to screw me from behind. Sure why not, let some idiots pay the same hard earned money for " upgrade " as for the swap. Let see how many of them we can get before we decide to start sending new units. When Pat Bono called me he told me that I have to send my back in right away because there is a list of upgrading that they are following. NICE, Nice work but it has very short legs and it will not walk the company very far.

http://AndreNapier.com mad.gif
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NBP
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 06:15:01 AM »
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Have you quite finished?
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LA30
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2007, 08:36:45 AM »
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Have you quite finished?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126208\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Let him air it out...

I would speak to the Reps as well and let us know.  I can remember when I bought a Palm Pilot V back when they were like $400.  It broke and I sent it back to get fixed...I was always very careful not to scratch the LCD screen...Well, I got back a working unit and it wasn't mine...The LCD screen was scratched.  Palm, at the time told me that they send them out the back and take them in to fix in the front...It cuts down on repair time.  Well I didn't stand by and take it.  I demanded that I got my old unit back or a new unit...Who knows what I got but I did get a very very like new unit.  I was happy.  I would hate to take very good care of my digi back only to get stuck with someone else's Beach Camera?

We hear you...now call LEAF and let us know!

Ken
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Randal32
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2007, 09:05:20 AM »
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Air it out.

I know this forum might be Phase biased but you'd think Leaf would do everything in their power to quell the horrible publicity that it receives on this forum.

After researching and reading these forums, I decided to not even test a Leaf back and go with phase.  

This just validates mine and others decisions.

Sorry to be negative, I know Leaf is a good product, but for 20-30K, it should be a phenomenal product with even better cust service.
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markowich
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 10:02:18 AM »
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just for the record, i have both a leaf A75 and a phase P45. both backs have their advantages and disadvantages (as has been discussed extensively in this forum) but i have found phase AND leaf support very helpful and competent. in particular when my A75 had the centerfold issue it was exchanged by leaf within 5 days. at least i have no complaints with leaf support at all, on the contrary. just trying to be fair..
peter


quote=Randal32,Jul 3 2007, 03:05 PM]
Air it out.

I know this forum might be Phase biased but you'd think Leaf would do everything in their power to quell the horrible publicity that it receives on this forum.

After researching and reading these forums, I decided to not even test a Leaf back and go with phase.  

This just validates mine and others decisions.

Sorry to be negative, I know Leaf is a good product, but for 20-30K, it should be a phenomenal product with even better cust service.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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Lester
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 10:14:20 AM »
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I know where you coming from, I have a P45 that have very little color cast, for me to trade up to the P45+ I will be getting a different unit. Why would I take a chance of getting a P45+ with color cast problems. I am happy with my old unit, the only advanage would be the better color range.


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QUOTE(pprdigital @ Jul 2 2007, 09:53 PM)
The intent (at least in the US) was to upgrade the Aptus to Aptus S by placing the existing sensor and LCD into an all new housing. To perform this, additional technical support was brought into the US from Israel for an intensive period of upgrading.

However, due to the difficulty (not surprising) in scheduling photographers to provide their Aptus units on cue, the idea of getting all of the upgrades done in a condensed period has gone by the board and instead, new swapped units appear to be the easier and more expedient method of going from Aptus to Aptus S.

There can be exceptions to this, but these should be discussed with your dealer. For now, it appears that Leaf has moved to swaps rather than upgrades - good news in most cases. In either case, it's a very fast turnaround.

That's why refurbs are becoming available.

Steve Hendrix
PPR
www.ppratlanta.com
*
And now I am very PISSED. Very F....PISSED!!!
Swapping was the original agreement I had with LEAF. I am not an idiot and I clearly know what was said to me when I signed for the upgrade 6 months ago. I heard it from Bob Bresson and I heard it from Rick Adshead. When my time for an upgrade came up I was told that upgrade is an upgrade and not a swap. I brought it up in this forum and once again was told that there is no swap nor that one was ever intended and that I had to misunderstand the meaning of upgrade. Hard to misunderstand the intentions if my Rep originally 6 months ago promised to bring the new 75S to my studio for a check before I would release my 75 to him. Last week I called everybody inside Leaf HQ and was informed that the only way I will see an upgrade is by sending my unit in for replacement of the electronics only. I told Leaf that they flip flap on what they promised and again was made to feel like a retard. NO SWAPS MISTER. No loaners neither for a time of upgrading. I booked off 4 days from my studio busy time at the additional lost of thousands of dollars to get the " upgrade" . Five days ago I got my old back upgraded. Still the same
beat up housing etc. and now I read THIS. Yair, Steve my old personal friends I am PISSED and when I am pissed I am worst than my wife and you guys know what I mean.
VERY CRUDE of Leaf and one less client even if I have to shoot with Pentacon6 from now on.
I had been with PhaseOne for six years before moving to Leaf and was never made to feel this way dealing with them. I may have an foreign accent, I might be making spelling mistakes but I can clearly feel when someone tries to screw me from behind. Sure why not, let some idiots pay the same hard earned money for " upgrade " as for the swap. Let see how many of them we can get before we decide to start sending new units. When Pat Bono called me he told me that I have to send my back in right away because there is a list of upgrading that they are following. NICE, Nice work but it has very short legs and it will not walk the company very far.

http://AndreNapier.com mad.gif
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I am a old fart, over 60
Dustbak
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 10:14:54 AM »
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I can imagine this is annoying especially when you have asked beforehand whether it would be a swap or upgrade. To later find out it turned to a swap while getting upgraded yourself, indeed you could feel being somewhat cheated. I am sure this change was not supposed to harm you but from what I read became necessary to do so.

I assume you have already called your dealer or the person at Leaf you deal with?
I cannot imagine that Leaf will not solve this. Let us know if and how this is solved.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 10:18:53 AM by Dustbak » Logged
narikin
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 10:15:06 AM »
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I know this forum might be Phase biased but you'd think Leaf would do everything in their power to quell the horrible publicity that it receives on this forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
actually I don't feel that there is a Phase bias here.
this forum is pretty neutral, and just calls out either of the manufacturers as and when. (see above)

remember all the uber critical posts from Leaf owners/employees about the Phase LCC correction - boasts about how Leaf didn't suffer from this and why on earth did Phase people put up with it? well, the worm has turned, Phase has by and large been delivering down the line, with a solid product and decent upgrade. Leaf turned out to have the Centerfold issue, software clunks, upgrade issues, etc. etc.

the P30+ and P45+ are class leading products with rock solid software and bullet proof reliability, thats why a lot of people are choosing them.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 10:16:35 AM by narikin » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2007, 10:42:36 AM »
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I agree, this forum is pretty neutral, as far as I am concerned.

When photographers/customers are sometimes upset about a particular brand or an issue and air it out here, you would always find the 2 sides of the coin: some come in to agree with the initial poster and others to support a particular brand. I feel it well balanced, in this regard.

May be the idea from some here that there are only 2 brands which can deliver quality together with service/support is a bit of disturbing for me, but am here to balance this as well.

So all in all LL is, IMO, a platform giving you all the possibility to ask, make comments, inform, criticize, express wishes and give ideas of improvements, etc ...

BUT ALL THIS WITHOUT EVER BEING CENSORED by the owner of this forum.

I think one should not forget this.

Thierry

Quote
actually I don't feel that there is a Phase bias here.
this forum is pretty neutral, and just calls out either of the manufacturers as and when. (see above)
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Thierry Hagenauer
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 11:14:12 AM »
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Since I bought my Leaf I was doing everything in my power to spread the word of how good their product is. Coming from Phase One I was at some point even offered to exchange my A75 for new P45 at no cost by well known dealer Rep. I passed on this offer. I voiced my positive opinions about Leaf in this and other forums. I was there for Leaf Reps when they needed a photog who moved from P1 to Aptus  to talk to prospective buyers. Now I hear from Leaf that the idea of swap could have been mentioned to me 6 months ago but was " NEVER OFFICIALLY DOCUMENTED BY LEAF " .
No you guys are right I do not have your signature signed with blood. Same way that I did not record any of my phone calls with the company. When I spoke to Steve a day before I sent my back in to check on the upgrade he told me he already has his A75 upgraded for A75S. I asked how smooth was the upgrade and was told that dealers get their backs swaped but no way for photogs.
Bad , this is bad.

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pixjohn
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 12:31:25 PM »
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You received a replacement back with no centerfold? Why i am the only schmuck stuck with centerfold, bad magenta and other problems. Who did I piss off?

I posted this in another thread

Pissed, At least your back works? After 1 year I still do not have a working back. I am on my 4th back with no luck going down hill faster every shoot.

If you read all my post I think I am number 1 on the Pissed rating. I know for a fact Leaf reps read this forum, and have not taken care of me.

I think I screwed myself being the nice guy and waiting and waiting for a working back. I really wanted to buy the Leaf back based the the demo unit and my support for an israeli company, as I am married to an Israeli.

Just to add a little more info. I received 2 bad batteries with my digital magazine that I returned to Leaf to replace 3-4 months ago and never received replacements? Leaf what is with that?

Quote
i have found phase AND leaf support very helpful and competent. in particular when my A75 had the centerfold issue it was exchanged by leaf within 5 days. at least i have no complaints with leaf support at all, on the contrary. just trying to be fair..
peter
quote=Randal32,Jul 3 2007, 03:05 PM]
Air it out.


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« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 02:49:25 PM by pixjohn » Logged
AndreNapier
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 05:43:27 PM »
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After posting my complain here and venting out my frustration  I just received a phone call from Mike Edwards from Leaf America. Mike was very nice and apologetic. He assured me that the upgrading process was not meant to be stressful for anybody. He promised me that Leaf will replace my upgraded 75S with a brand new unit as soon as he will have one on hand. This is a very good news for me and some really wise decision from Leaf. Regardless of what some of you here may think it would truly be unfair to offer and upgrade of electronics to some clients and completely new units to others all for the same money. From photog business investment point of view it is a huge difference. The future resale value of new unit is always much higher than of upgraded used back regardless of its manufacture.  I am happy that Leaf seen the point and reacted swiftly to make it just. I would like to use the opportunity to thank Luminous Landscape for offering this forum and a voice that makes a difference to individual photogs.
I had been very happy camper with my Leaf back so far and  had spread my positive opinion about Aptus  to great many photogs with my travels around the world.. I am happy that Leaf got to appreciate this as well. Thank you all.
I will keep the board posted with updates on my back swap.

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uaiomex
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2007, 06:10:51 PM »
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Ain't the internet great?
Let's all be watchfull to keep it that way.
Congratulations Andre. We all deserve better.
Unless some photogs out there, I do believe, that a manufacturer (of any kind), is never thru with its moral responsabilities toward its customers. (I understand you were legally entitled tough)  
Eduardo

 
Quote
After posting my complain here and venting out my frustration  I just received a phone call from Mike Edwards from Leaf America. Mike was very nice and apologetic. He assured me that the upgrading process was not meant to be stressful for anybody. He promised me that Leaf will replace my upgraded 75S with a brand new unit as soon as he will have one on hand. This is a very good news for me and some really wise decision from Leaf. Regardless of what some of you here may think it would truly be unfair to offer and upgrade of electronics to some clients and completely new units to others all for the same money. From photog business investment point of view it is a huge difference. The future resale value of new unit is always much higher than of upgraded used back regardless of its manufacture.  I am happy that Leaf seen the point and reacted swiftly to make it just. I would like to use the opportunity to thank Luminous Landscape for offering this forum and a voice that makes a difference to individual photogs.
I had been very happy camper with my Leaf back so far and  had spread my positive opinion about Aptus  to great many photogs with my travels around the world.. I am happy that Leaf got to appreciate this as well. Thank you all.
I will keep the board posted with updates on my back swap.

Http://AndreNapier.com
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2007, 07:02:09 PM »
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glad you got this resolved andre...but i think it is really sad that one has to lash out in public to get what should never be in question...this is proof how small the DMF market really is....a post on one the prominent forums seems to be enough to set things in motion....and obviously leaf does not need any more bad publicity.....


on the topic of brand bashing: i think it is funny that this forum is considered anti leaf or pro phase....i have a hard time imagining that people post here just to badmouth some brand...that idea is just ludicrous....what is the point? this forum is about sharing experiences...either way..good or bad....of course the good ones just make us happy and don't make us sit down and vent online....which sometimes really seems to pay off! as we can see......it is the frustrating moments that any equipment will provide at one point or another....

someone here said that they would not even test leaf because of what they read here.....i advise against that stand, there are many happy leaf users who don't post here and are happy shooting....does that mean they never have problems? no....but so does everybody at one point or another....
that still does not give anyone the right to call someone posting a very real problem a brand basher....

questioning the president is not unpatriotic....on the contrary....

anyway....happy 4th of july to everyone in this part of the photoworld....
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2007, 08:45:47 PM »
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I'm glad this worked out for you.  Life in general can be stressful without compounding on it.  Again, very good news and in less than 24 hours!
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rljones
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2007, 11:46:51 PM »
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Hi,

I'm one of those infrequent posters who is a very happy Leaf 65 user. I recently went against the tide (so it seems from this forum) and changed my Leaf 65 mount from Mamiya to Contax. I was advised by Steve Hendrix it would be about 3-4 weeks and right on cue I was told to ship in my back. About 3 days later, the back was returned. However, Leaf did a swap and gave me a new back. Initially, I was a bit worried since my old back worked flawlessly, but the new one seems to run cooler and also works perfectly. And I love the images being produced with the Contax 645 and their Zeiss lenses. (The 210/4 has a bad rap; I find mine to be stunning; bitingly sharp!)

Anyhow, I've no complaints with Leaf.

Regards,

Robert
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2007, 01:01:44 AM »
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Hi,

I'm one of those infrequent posters who is a very happy Leaf 65 user. I recently went against the tide (so it seems from this forum) and changed my Leaf 65 mount from Mamiya to Contax. I was advised by Steve Hendrix it would be about 3-4 weeks and right on cue I was told to ship in my back. About 3 days later, the back was returned. However, Leaf did a swap and gave me a new back. Initially, I was a bit worried since my old back worked flawlessly, but the new one seems to run cooler and also works perfectly. And I love the images being produced with the Contax 645 and their Zeiss lenses. (The 210/4 has a bad rap; I find mine to be stunning; bitingly sharp!)

Anyhow, I've no complaints with Leaf.

Regards,

Robert
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robert,

I am happy to hear this, because photogs need to read this positive opinions to overcome the fear of Leaf products. I have shot with every manufacture back there is on the market. Not just shot with them over the weekend but had owned them at one point or the other. I am one of the guys that love the toys of the trade and whatever new comes on the market I just have to have it, and have to have it now. If I would go with other people opinions I would never be able to buy anything as for one positive comment you always easily find two negative ones. I started shooting digital about seven years ago and through majority of this time most frequently used Phase One products. At some point I thought that 6MP LightPhase was the answer to all my prayers. I progressed with H10, H20, P20 Rollei, P25 which I later self converted for Rollei mount using old
H20 Rollei housing. I shot with all brands of MF cameras trying every posible back to body combination. Every time Canon came up with a new product I jump on it as well and every time I was amazed with the initial quality. My love for Canon never lasted longer than 4 weeks at which point I started to see that something was missing. I think I owned H1 4 times and my last one was from Mark Tucker collection with his P25 which I also got from him. I resisted Leaf for a long time after my previous Valeo disaster experience. I think it would be an understatement to say that I just simply was not happy with any of the packages available. The person who put me back on a Leaf road was James Russell who let me shoot his A75 with Contax one weekend in NYC.
I used to like Contax645 in the film era so I gave it a try. Contax has some great glass but after H1 the viewfinder really seems very small and dark. For somebody who never AF and is not 30 any more this is a great consideration. So again I got myself H Hassy and Aptus75. That was about a year ago. For two months I shot with this combo and fighted to learn the software. This is the time when Dave Gallagher offer to swap with me the my A75 for P45. Dave is a great guy and the best PhaseOne dealer the company may ever have. I passed on this offer as I already seen some great potentials with Aptus75. Instead I ordered a H1 to Rz67 plate from Digital Art in Japan and started shooting with my old love the Rz. To me a night turned into a day. Every image I produced was loved not only by me but also by my clients. The least to say that when I was redoing my book last month I founded including only two images that were not shot with Rz/A75.
Forgetting about image qualities however  I  also never ever have any hick ups with this setup. The back never stops, never send me any error messages like with h1 and just keeps on shooting for 6-10 hours a day. About 95% of my shots with WLF are dead sharp wide open and I can not stop enjoying it. For me as well as anybody who shoots fashion/glamour/beauty work the problem with center fold is really none existing. I do not even know if my back is CF problem free and I do not care to know as there is no way to see it using any lens of medium format camera. It is a huge problem for guys who use extreme wide angles lenses on large format cameras but really none for photogs like me. I had some problems with Leaf company that seem to be resolved now
but I am one happy camper with Aptus digital back and on a positive note wanted to share it as well.
[a href=\"http://andrenapier.com]http://andrenapier.com[/url]
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 01:14:42 AM by AndreNapier » Logged
pss
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2007, 06:13:42 PM »
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Robert,

I am happy to hear this, because photogs need to read this positive opinions to overcome the fear of Leaf products. I have shot with every manufacture back there is on the market. Not just shot with them over the weekend but had owned them at one point or the other. I am one of the guys that love the toys of the trade and whatever new comes on the market I just have to have it, and have to have it now. If I would go with other people opinions I would never be able to buy anything as for one positive comment you always easily find two negative ones. I started shooting digital about seven years ago and through majority of this time most frequently used Phase One products. At some point I thought that 6MP LightPhase was the answer to all my prayers. I progressed with H10, H20, P20 Rollei, P25 which I later self converted for Rollei mount using old
H20 Rollei housing. I shot with all brands of MF cameras trying every posible back to body combination. Every time Canon came up with a new product I jump on it as well and every time I was amazed with the initial quality. My love for Canon never lasted longer than 4 weeks at which point I started to see that something was missing. I think I owned H1 4 times and my last one was from Mark Tucker collection with his P25 which I also got from him. I resisted Leaf for a long time after my previous Valeo disaster experience. I think it would be an understatement to say that I just simply was not happy with any of the packages available. The person who put me back on a Leaf road was James Russell who let me shoot his A75 with Contax one weekend in NYC.
I used to like Contax645 in the film era so I gave it a try. Contax has some great glass but after H1 the viewfinder really seems very small and dark. For somebody who never AF and is not 30 any more this is a great consideration. So again I got myself H Hassy and Aptus75. That was about a year ago. For two months I shot with this combo and fighted to learn the software. This is the time when Dave Gallagher offer to swap with me the my A75 for P45. Dave is a great guy and the best PhaseOne dealer the company may ever have. I passed on this offer as I already seen some great potentials with Aptus75. Instead I ordered a H1 to Rz67 plate from Digital Art in Japan and started shooting with my old love the Rz. To me a night turned into a day. Every image I produced was loved not only by me but also by my clients. The least to say that when I was redoing my book last month I founded including only two images that were not shot with Rz/A75.
Forgetting about image qualities however  I  also never ever have any hick ups with this setup. The back never stops, never send me any error messages like with h1 and just keeps on shooting for 6-10 hours a day. About 95% of my shots with WLF are dead sharp wide open and I can not stop enjoying it. For me as well as anybody who shoots fashion/glamour/beauty work the problem with center fold is really none existing. I do not even know if my back is CF problem free and I do not care to know as there is no way to see it using any lens of medium format camera. It is a huge problem for guys who use extreme wide angles lenses on large format cameras but really none for photogs like me. I had some problems with Leaf company that seem to be resolved now
but I am one happy camper with Aptus digital back and on a positive note wanted to share it as well.
http://andrenapier.com
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andre not sure if you remember me...i pestered you about the 6008/P20 combo on rob's forum....anyway....i shoot with the RZ almost exculsively now (and a P30)....i can only second what you are saying about looking trough the WLF and the lenses....i am asuming the Hy6/Afi will provide a similar experience (only smaller/lighter with even better schneider lenses...)....either way i can highly recommend the brighter screens (bill maxwell) for the RZ....just got mine..it makes it even better....
btw: you could have saved oyurself some trouble(and a lot of cash) by going with the mamiya645afdII instead of the H system...with the RZ it makes a very nice system...
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2007, 06:15:08 AM »
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andre not sure if you remember me...i pestered you about the 6008/P20 combo on rob's forum....anyway....i shoot with the RZ almost exculsively now (and a P30)....i can only second what you are saying about looking trough the WLF and the lenses....i am asuming the Hy6/Afi will provide a similar experience (only smaller/lighter with even better schneider lenses...)....either way i can highly recommend the brighter screens (bill maxwell) for the RZ....just got mine..it makes it even better....
btw: you could have saved oyurself some trouble(and a lot of cash) by going with the mamiya645afdII instead of the H system...with the RZ it makes a very nice system...
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Andre, Paul

I too am shooting the H1 + Rz67 + A75. What lenses are you using on the Rz? I generally just end up with the nice 110mm f2.8 for most people stuff. The Rz kit is not really that much heavier than most other kits, as long as you dont put the heavy prism finder on it  


Svein Erik
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 06:15:41 AM by sundstei » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2007, 01:25:55 PM »
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Andre, Paul

I too am shooting the H1 + Rz67 + A75. What lenses are you using on the Rz? I generally just end up with the nice 110mm f2.8 for most people stuff. The Rz kit is not really that much heavier than most other kits, as long as you dont put the heavy prism finder on it  
Svein Erik
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i shoot almost exclusively with the 180....i also have the 127 and the 140 macro.....will probably get the 90 and something wider....for looser shots i usually take the 645 with the zoom....
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