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Author Topic: Writing  (Read 15025 times)
jani
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2007, 09:33:22 AM »
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I iz tyg4r burn1nz br1t3
In yr f0r3stz 0f t3h n1t3
WHUT da m4x l33t h4ndz 0r 3y3z
Fr4m3z0rd mah f33rfl 5mmtryz?

(...)

(For the rest, see http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archi...50.html#190600)

I'm sure William Blake would be thrilled; he loved parody, too.

To a certain extent, I think 1337 speech and similar fancyful changes to the language also serve to enrich it. We get more strings to play on, if only for the sake of satire or parody.

But for regular communication with other people, I agree that we should take care; it's not only the reader's responsibility to extract the original intent of a text, the greater burden is on the author.

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Is it any worse that individuals with poor 'photo literacy' posting  lousy images on any
number of photo-oriented forums?
Yes, absolutely. People with poor "photo literacy" posting lousy images to photo-oriented forums are at least posting roughly on-topic.

People who are sloppy with language cause problems with communication, unless it's to be critiqued for their language or in parody/satire, in which case it's most likely off-topic for a photo-oriented forum or discussion thread.
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jani
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2007, 09:40:25 AM »
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As an example: one of my son´s past girlfriends is a teacher and, having reached that degree of education, I would have expected her to live by what she had been taught. However, the little matter of all right versus alright came up and she, teacher that she is, could not accept that using the incorrect form was something that she should have risen above.
Forgive me for digressing, but what is incorrect about either form?

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The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing <the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein>.

An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".

English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2007, 12:41:03 PM »
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Forgive me for digressing, but what is incorrect about either form?

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The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing <the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein>.

An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".

English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree that English spelling is quite suspect. But I insist that you and Merriam-Webster online are both alwrong about "alright"!  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 12:41:43 PM by EricM » Logged

-Eric Myrvaagnes

http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my website. New images each season.
Rob C
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2007, 12:45:54 PM »
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Quote from: EricM,Jul 12 2007, 05:41 PM
An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".

English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree that English spelling is quite suspect. But I insist that you and Merriam-Webster online are both alwrong about "alright"!  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Like that, Eric!

Rob C
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kaelaria
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2007, 01:04:11 PM »
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Man some of you need to get out more!
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Gordon Buck
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 03:58:27 PM »
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(President) Andrew Jackson supposedly said something like "It is a weak mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
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Rob C
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2007, 04:19:21 PM »
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(President) Andrew Jackson supposedly said something like "It is a weak mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Was he dyslexic, by any chance, or simply inventive - perhaps the original HP Man; no, probably just an attack of dysuria at the time of making or not making that statement.

Ciao - Rob C
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dbell
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 02:32:23 PM »
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I trace the beginning of this decline to the near-cessation of Latin instruction in all but the toniest private schools. Having to learn Latin trains the mind to better understand, and respect the beauty of, the English language to which it contributed so richly and generously. Rigor seems to be the main missing element in modern education overall.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm young enough that I didn't have any Latin instruction available to me in (public) school. There's still no good excuse for mutilating the language .

Frankly, the public schools in the US graduate an awful lot of students who simply can't write. It really doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you can't manage to make yourself understood.
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Rob C
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2007, 04:38:00 PM »
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Taking the above a step further, there is also the problem that grammar alone is not enough. There are many who can do all the technical things correctly yet fail to have the slightest talent for conveying anything in an interesting manner.

I think it´s a lot like photography or other arts in that many can appreciate something that´s done well, but that does not always give them the power to create anything themselves.

But yes, where standards are allowed to fall, as in the UK where dumbing down is government policy because nobody is allowed to fail at anything and being better at something than your neighbour is elitist, there is the dreaded consequence of the next generation of teachers being themselves unaware of their shortcomings and, innocently, passing the decline downwards to the next level...

Holy cow - what a world the politcians are creating for us all!

Ciao - Rob C
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pedro.silva
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2007, 08:24:35 PM »
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This isn´t quite photography, but it does reflect on what gets written on this and other sites.
I have a problem with the abuse of basic English.

i know i'll get nailed for this one, but here goes.
i'm no native speaker of english (chronologically, it is my 3dr language), i don't live in a country where english is any sort of official language, but i too am sensitive to the abuse of basic english.  let me quote a few relevant examples from a single page, which most of you might recognise:

"Improvements in image quality at the very high end of digital imaging (medium format backs) improves by small increments"  -- i've been under the impression that image quality improves (maybe), but "improvements in image quality" don't.  perhaps i've been wrong.
"I have no intention here in doing a comparison..."  
"In additional to being vastly brighter and more readable..."  
"Each of these is a place susceptable to moisture..."
"the P45+ definitely seems to produce a "sharper" image than does the P45"  -- definitely seems a cop-out, maybe?
"the differences in image quality between backs is small"

yes, you often get what you pay for, and i don't pay.  but these quotes are not from a post hastily written while photoshop does its thing or whatever, they come from a review of a very high end product.  i would expect better, but the pattern is old, so i no longer expect any better.

cheers,
pedro

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...native English speakers ought to be able to write coherent sentences and spell correctly at a minimum.
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Rob C
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2007, 03:05:40 AM »
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?

Youth is impressionable (hence the cynical move in the UK to allow the vote at 16 years of age) and fashion-driven too; this same youth goes on to adopt the ´new´ language and, in turn, passes it onwards in a non-ending cascade of decline.

But then, even I have found myself adopting some TV-speak on occasion, so perhaps it´s too late already.

Ciao - Rob C
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jani
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2007, 07:26:10 AM »
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?
There is nothing special about English in this regard.

There are notable developments in all Scandinavian languages, in the Sami languages, in German, French, Italian, Mandarin, Japanese, ...

Any language where the underlying culture has contact with other cultures using other languages, or the underlying culture develops, will have some sort of "decline" or "corruption" over time.

The era of modern communication has accelerated these changes.
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Jan
pedro.silva
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2007, 04:43:43 PM »
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?
i'm not sure how to reply to this one, as i am way out of my depth here (as most everywhere else, lol!).  and i wouldn't even try, had you not directed the question at me.  is english really declining and corrupting, or just evolving?  is “breakfast” a normal everyday word, or the result of two proper words ("break" and "fast" -- as in “i’m going to break fast”) being corrupted by lazy and impressionable people?  are the thousands upon thousands of english words of french origin acceptable because they’ve been incorporated long ago, but tv-speak not acceptable just because it’s happening under our chins?  can you understand shakespeare in the original?  chaucer?  why not?  has english been allowed to corrupt and decline all these years, or has it just been evolving?  if it has been evolving, as most would agree, why should it stop now?  why should any other language?  all live languages evolve, and even dead ones do too (i’m pretty sure cicero would not understand latin spoken by an educated american professing to speak it).  
it would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse.  it seemed to me that the examples i quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected.  
this is perhaps not what you would like to hear but, like i said, i don’t really know what i’m talking about, so feel free to ignore it.
cheers,
pedro
ps back to photography?...
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Rob C
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2007, 03:01:17 AM »
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i'm not sure how to reply to this one, as i am way out of my depth here (as most everywhere else, lol!).  and i wouldn't even try, had you not directed the question at me.  is english really declining and corrupting, or just evolving?  is “breakfast” a normal everyday word, or the result of two proper words ("break" and "fast" -- as in “i’m going to break fast”) being corrupted by lazy and impressionable people?  are the thousands upon thousands of english words of french origin acceptable because they’ve been incorporated long ago, but tv-speak not acceptable just because it’s happening under our chins?  can you understand shakespeare in the original?  chaucer?  why not?  has english been allowed to corrupt and decline all these years, or has it just been evolving?  if it has been evolving, as most would agree, why should it stop now?  why should any other language?  all live languages evolve, and even dead ones do too (i’m pretty sure cicero would not understand latin spoken by an educated american professing to speak it). 
it would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse.  it seemed to me that the examples i quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected. 
this is perhaps not what you would like to hear but, like i said, i don’t really know what i’m talking about, so feel free to ignore it.
cheers,
pedro
ps back to photography?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Pedro - no, I think you DO know what you are talking about, and certainly your choice of writing style shows you have made a conscious decision to ignore capital letters and similar codes of language clarification; that´s up to you, but also up to you is any lack of respect that comes your way because of that choice.

Ciao - Rob C
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pedro.silva
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2007, 01:10:49 PM »
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Pedro - no, I think you DO know what you are talking about, and certainly your choice of writing style shows you have made a conscious decision to ignore capital letters and similar codes of language clarification; that´s up to you, but also up to you is any lack of respect that comes your way because of that choice.
rob,

do you really think that the intent of my writing is obscured by the lack of capitalization (i mean, it is not old german we are talking about, is it?)

i can assure you that few if any who know me would say i have a "sloppy mind".  as a matter of fact, many jokingly complain that it is too damned sharp!

as for respect...  yes, we all make decisions, and i've made one long ago, that i've never regretted, and turned out to have many corollaries.  it automatically solves such questions as
- do i want to be respected for what i say and do, or for my clothes and hairdo?
- do i want to be respected for correct spelling and punctuation, or for capitalization?
- do i want to be respected for my images, or for a fancy web page showing them?

i probably don't care about the opinion of those who cannot see past capitalization, and show lack of respect based on that alone.

i've said enough.

cheers,
pedro
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Rob C
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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2007, 02:49:22 PM »
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Madre de Dios, Pedro, what hope the United Nations!

Ciao - Rob C
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DiaAzul
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2007, 03:25:21 PM »
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It would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse.  It seemed to me that the examples I quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected. 

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Evolution of a language is often the result of conflicting cultural groups communicating with each other within similar geographical spaces. In the case of England (Great Britain) this has been the case of conflict between the literacy of the indiginous population and the successive waves of invaders (Roman, Viking, Saxon, Norman) and tradesman (Norwegian, Dutch, Celtic, Spanish). The English language is the result of the local indiginous population of the British Isles trying to find a common language with which to communicate with the ruling Barons and Kings (as well as each other).

What is not captured here is the great variety of local dialects that exist within the English language - not just the differences between British and American English but also regional dialects within the British Isles, other commonwealth countries (Australia New Zealand, Africa, India, Carribean) and the international business English (Globish).

The issue is not what language is used but with how much care is taken to make sure the communication is appropriate and relevant.

Same holds true for photography. It doesn't matter what style of photography is used people will appreciate the quality of work produced and will also make exception for those who are learning and progressing in the art/craft.

To complete this post and make it circular - the greatest advancements in photography occur when there is friction between different styles and new ways of doing things become available. Hopefully, we will see a photographic version of 1337 speak which challenges the way that we perceive the creation of images.
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2007, 05:35:57 PM »
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Evolution of a language is often the result of conflicting cultural groups communicating with each other within similar geographical spaces. In the case of England (Great Britain) this has been the case of conflict between the literacy of the indiginous (sic) population and the successive waves of invaders (Roman, Viking, Saxon, Norman) and tradesman (Norwegian, Dutch, Celtic, Spanish). The English language is the result of the local indiginous population of the British Isles trying to find a common language with which to communicate with the ruling Barons and Kings (as well as each other).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While not diminishing the correctness of the general idea here, I feel I must put my pedantic hat on and point out that the Britons, the indigenous population as it is apparently imagined here, had essentially no influence on the the development of the English language. English is a combination of the languages of the various 'invaders' (e.g. Saxon and Norman French) highly modified by specific technical vocabularies (e.g. Greek), Latin rhetorical forms (e.g. e.g.) and neologisms, etc.. Words from the indigenous population are limited to specifically-British land-forms (e.g. comb) and number just a handful.

I would also point out that English, as a language, is probably much more universal today than it has ever been historically, so I am not sure that I entirely buy the argument that such forms as 'text-ese' are really a denigration of the language (especially when used self-consciously) so much as an issue of manners. In the same category I would add people who insist on purposely typing in all-caps or no-caps; it was clever when e. e. cummings did it, but now it comes across as poor, overly-casual communication that makes your text harder to read. In a similar vein, icoulddecidenottousepunctuationorspacingandyoucouldprobablyreaditbutitwouldnotme
aniwasnotbeinganassbydoingit . . .

-Sean [www.larkvi.com]
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larkvi
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2007, 05:38:33 PM »
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It occurs to me that what this thread is really about is the need for a style-guide for writing on the forum, like the Chicago manual is used for historical papers. So, who is up for writing the Luminous Landscape Forum Manual of Style? We can have all kinds of arguments over proper footnoting--it would be fun!
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Rob C
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2007, 08:55:19 AM »
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It occurs to me that what this thread is really about is the need for a style-guide for writing on the forum, like the Chicago manual is used for historical papers. So, who is up for writing the Luminous Landscape Forum Manual of Style? We can have all kinds of arguments over proper footnoting--it would be fun!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, no, not really. We already have an established and perfectly good language in Standard English and there is no need to adapt it to the forum or anywhere else. It is the departures from this standard that cause the problem, the bone of contention; we hardly need more!

Neologisms are perfectly acceptable when they are created to fit new technology or other things which might not have had an earlier, recognized existence. To do so for effect is not exactly cricket...

Ciao - Rob C
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