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Author Topic: Z3100 Print Length Issue Explained  (Read 13788 times)
jhein
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« on: July 11, 2007, 10:08:30 AM »
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier.  The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.

A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years.  I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.

The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print.  An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536.  Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535.  A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.

So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches

In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters

The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver.  The workaround is to lower your printing resolution.  Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.

hope this helps
Jim
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neil snape
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 11:32:02 AM »
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier.  The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.

A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years.  I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.

The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print.  An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536.  Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535.  A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.

So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches

In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters

The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver.  The workaround is to lower your printing resolution.  Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.

hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Jim,
You have a wqay of explaining making it clear and easily understandible. Since I now downsample the long prints that aproach 250cm it prints everytime at 150 ppi. The same image will not print at 300ppi.  The images however are all less than 270cm . One thing is certain, it can only be a fault in the driver, but one that HP don't care to look into.
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rdonson
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 03:18:00 PM »
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Excellent, clear explanation, Jim.  Thanks for sharing this.  I'm ashamed to admit that I've spent 30 years in the computer industry (hardware and software) and didn't think of it in these terms.
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Ron
Panascape
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 04:23:15 PM »
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The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.

hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Jim, but  my print is already 150 ppi which lets you go to 277.68 so I guess there is another bug which would not surprise me. I also have a software background and all I can say is that if my engineers released the amount of buggy code that HP's do then  either they would have been fired or we would have very annoyed customers.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 04:26:26 PM by Panascape » Logged
rdonson
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2007, 04:52:04 PM »
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I also have a software background and all I can say is that if my engineers released the amount of buggy code that HP's do then  either they would have been fired or we would have very annoyed customers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Its rarely the software engineers totally at fault.  I suspect their test harness and procedures and more than likely their management.
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Ron
Panascape
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2007, 04:57:54 PM »
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Its rarely the software engineers totally at fault.  I suspect their test harness and procedures and more than likely their management.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Test harness, I though that is what we are paying to do?
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rdonson
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2007, 06:14:58 PM »
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Test harness, I though that is what we are paying to do?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127674\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 
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Regards,
Ron
dvedve
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 08:10:09 PM »
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier.  The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.

A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years.  I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.

The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print.  An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536.  Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535.  A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.

So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches

In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters

The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver.  The workaround is to lower your printing resolution.  Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.

hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On page 58 of the Z3100 Quick Reference Guide, HP briefly covers this topic and offer a few suggestions.  Their explaination seems to imply that it is not a printer driver issue, but a application one.  In any case, good explaination.

David
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Lije
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 01:39:39 PM »
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Hi All

Our company have recently aquired a Z3100 44 inch. We are fairly beginners at using this machine and on an attempt to print a banner 12 feet metres long @ 300dpi, the job in the print queue would delete itself. We are not software engineers but humble graphic designers. We were so frustrated and spent hours trying every permutaion in the printer menu to get this damn banner to print.
Are you saying that our printer won't print anything longer than 108 inches.
I did call the HP support line, they tell me I may have to upgrade to HP-GL2,and as a throw away line, "Oh yes we have had comments about printing banners over 8 feet in length have been a problem" There latest driver was supposed to cure that but it didn't.
In the end I had to reduce the banner to 8 feet in length and at 150 dpi, that seemed to work, But when you've got clients who want 12 feet and nothing shorter, what do you do?
Any Suggestions Guys.
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rdonson
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 02:08:17 PM »
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I'm not a graphics designer, I don't even play one on TV     my question is to ask how you're printing.  Are you printing from an application?  If so, what application?  I'm trying to figure out if this is an application or driver problem.  If you're using vector graphics and printing from a vector graphics app it may lead us to thinking its a driver problem.  If you're printing from an Adobe app.... well, I still think they're suspect.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 02:09:53 PM by rdonson » Logged

Regards,
Ron
Lije
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 03:42:59 PM »
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I'm not a graphics designer, I don't even play one on TV     my question is to ask how you're printing.  Are you printing from an application?  If so, what application?  I'm trying to figure out if this is an application or driver problem.  If you're using vector graphics and printing from a vector graphics app it may lead us to thinking its a driver problem.  If you're printing from an Adobe app.... well, I still think they're suspect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
I'm trying to print from photoshop & illustrator CS2 and acrobat. I've printed off other items less than 8 feet with no problem, but go over it and it's a nightmare. I tend not use any other apps for printing other than adobe.
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Lije
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2007, 08:12:09 AM »
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Hi
I'm trying to print from photoshop & illustrator CS2 and acrobat. I've printed off other items less than 8 feet with no problem, but go over it and it's a nightmare. I tend not use any other apps for printing other than adobe.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Does anyone know if upgrading to the GL2 will solve this problem?

cheers
Lije
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felix5616
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 02:38:51 PM »
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Does anyone know if upgrading to the GL2 will solve this problem?

cheers
Lije
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ImagePrint 7.0 availbale for Windows and MAC operating system will be available shortly(about 30 days) and will allow printing over 12 feet. I called today because i also own an HP Z3100 and want to print 10 foot images @ 300dpi. A technical support member told me that prints over 12 feet are able to be made using their ImagePrint 7.0 RIP.
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rdonson
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 04:26:13 PM »
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ImagePrint 7.0 availbale for Windows and MAC operating system will be available shortly(about 30 days) ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ahem...... we've been hearing that for months...
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Regards,
Ron
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2007, 01:31:02 AM »
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A friend of mine had the exact same problem trying to print images longer than 108"' on his Epson 9800. He was told by Epson that Photoshop was the problem. Whether or not that is the problem I don't know. He now runs through a Colorbyte rip  and  can print over 108". I'm assuming a rip would solve this problem as well.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 01:31:55 AM by dkeyes » Logged

neil snape
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 03:45:41 AM »
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I don't think upgrading to PLG will change print length. I had problems with max print length before, the only solution was or is to cut the doc res to 150 dpi. Not ideal , but all I can say that works.
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alanmcf
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 08:46:48 PM »
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Does not QImage get around this? Alan
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2007, 06:42:30 AM »
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Does not QImage get around this? Alan
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If you mean the "poster" "stitched tile" for single image print on roll there's the nasty habit of the Z3100 driver to keep the 5 mm margins between tiles that normally stitch with Qimage. Depending on the "margins lay-out" settings in the driver you end up with missing 10 mm image between tiles (becomes white) or 10 mm white added between tiles. Maybe borderless could solve that issue but that's gloss only and I think warping the conditions that much if you actually print matte or canvas isn't a solution. I have not yet finished the trials in between jobs but so far it isn't encouraging.

Edit: I have checked all the Z3100 driver choices to take out the white intersections with Qimage's poster - tile stitching feature but there's no solution.

Qimage usually could cope better than other Windows applications when long prints were needed, even without the poster tile function. For a single print page, so not in poster/stitched tile mode, there's a 500 inch limit in Qimage it seems as the print job goes on Print to File mode when longer jobs start processing. Still 5x the Z3100 limit and by that not the first one to deal with..

Edit: with a max print page length of 12,3 meter = 484 inch set in the driver I can print a 600 MB, 8 bit RGB, Tiff file of 99999 pixel length = 207 PPI input resolution through the Z3100 driver. It will print the full length (made a 2 meter paper loop that runs through several times) but the width is cropped to approx 21 cm = 8" for an unknown reason. Could be the memory in my system so I have to check whether using a lower  input resolution may widen the resulting print page  The 99999 pixel length is a Qimage limitation, Mike limited image input to 100K x 100K pixels. The 484 inches length is also a Qimage limitation. Anyway it is nice to know that it will run that length. Somthing to build on.

I think there are some solutions possible but it would have to be added/changed in the Z3100 driver. One way would be to add another margin choice that copes with stitched tile functions in Qimage, Illustrator, etc. Another one could be a stitched tile function in the driver itself. Or just let the driver really deliver the optimistic 91 meters choice in the page size menu.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:12:14 PM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2007, 11:04:03 AM »
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So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches

In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters

The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver.  The workaround is to lower your printing resolution.  Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.

hope this helps
Jim
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As written in my last message I can get 12.3 meter length printed on the Z3100 with Qimage but the width gets cropped to something around 20 cm where Qimage says it  should become 63 cm (for example). It doesn't matter what input PPI is used 207 PPI to 34 PPI it always results in the approx 20 cm crop and 12.3 M length. I really don't get it, there's no relation to PPI or width it should have. If I go below the 277 cm limit it will print the full width indicated, doesn't matter whether input is above or below 150 PPI. So there's more going on.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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dct123
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 04:21:41 PM »
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I'm using Qimage with a Z3100ps printer and recently printed a 600dpi at 122x24 inch photograph (10-foot panorama with a one-inch border). The TIFF file is 1.96GB!

This is the longest print I've attempted. (I have no idea how the recipient will mount it...it was my donation to a local fund raising auction for a historical landmark building).  So much for the pixel limit theory.

DC
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