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Author Topic: New computer for Lightroom.  (Read 12470 times)
X-Re
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 07:26:52 PM »
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So please, do tell (one example will do) of what 'invasive' program will cause an unstable OS 'without the user requiring anything to allow it.'  Remember, that means it's 100% the OS' fault - that's what we are talking about.  So no browser or other internet app, no user loading of anything...just a computer sitting there being 'invaded' all by itself.

     The first easy Microsoft example that jumps to mind - because of all the stir it created when it occured - is right here: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/...n/MS01-033.mspx

     IIS was turned on - on every Win 2K machine - by default. You install the OS and you're vulnerable.

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Or perhaps you want to revise your claim...

     Or perhaps you want to change your snotty tone and go educate yourself on things like buffer overruns and other common hacking holes that occur without the user being involved.... Or STHU about things you truly don't understand.

     You might also explain to everyone why it is that cable/DSL routers with built in firewalls became so popular in the early part of the decade... and why they're actually necessary, if there's no way to attack a system without a stupid user doing something....

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Congrats on your BSod.  I never said it doesn't happen.  I said it happens on both platforms and it's no big deal - you proved my point.

     Never said you didn't. I did, however, point out that my experience has been different than yours. But... apparently that offends you, all knowing and all mightly Windows self-proclaimed expert, sir.

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I'm stating FAIR statements, to counter fan-boy ramblings.

     I'm wondering who's really the fan-boy....

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They both have their place - but it pays to be informed and not default to one or the other based on BS and myths, especcially those repeated daily on the internet by uninformed users.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

     I don't disagree - I do disagree with the absolute-ist statements made in your previous posts, and your tone throughout, though... You're being less than helpful, and your snide comments to opinions that differ even slightly from yours just appear to indicate that you have an axe to grind, and not that you have useful information to share...

     At least you seem to be a solid photographer...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 07:41:49 PM by X-Re » Logged

kaelaria
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 07:50:14 PM »
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LOL try again!  A problem that was fixed 6 years ago on the OS 2 generations ago (Windows 2000)  is all you can come up with?  Try to keep up with the conversation

Buffer overruns...oooh hey throw out some more tech terms to try and baffle everyone (else) with BS!  I said no browser or loading remember...we are talking about the OS, not the user or apps.  Buffer overrun attacks required user input to execute the bad program or code, remember   Programs don't run themselves

The loser of a debate is always the first one to call names and curse...sad, but predicted  

Is your dad going to beat up my dad now?  LOL
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X-Re
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 08:07:49 PM »
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LOL try again!  A problem that was fixed 6 years ago on the OS 2 generations ago (Windows 2000)  is all you can come up with?

     You wanted an example. You got one. The fact that its 6 years old does not at all change the fact that its an example of the very thing that you say doesn't ever exist. It also happens to be the starting point of a revelationary period where Microsoft realized that their flagship OS leaked like a sieve, and where all the whizbang stuff in place in XP and Vista now got their start. That's not exactly a "small" example.

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Buffer overruns...oooh hey throw out some more tech terms to try and baffle everyone (else) with BS!  I said no browser or loading remember...we are talking about the OS, not the user or apps.  Buffer overrun attacks required user input to execute the bad program or code, remember   Programs don't run themselves

     Sigh... I guess if you count turning on the power to the system as a stupid user move, then I have to concede... Otherwise.... programs most definitely "run themselves", and buffer overruns are quite useful things to exploit in attacking services/daemons that run on the system simply as part of starting the OS up. Now... to anyone that knows squat about how operating systems work, you've proven that you don't. To folks that don't, well... they're not reading this conversation anyhow.

     Didn't see you even take a pass at explaining firewalled routers being so common (and necessary). Or perhaps you can't? Or won't (since the answer is the very thing you're arguing against). You state a ways back:

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If you know very little about computers, how they work, and just like to propagate old myths to make yourself feel better...buy a mac wink.gif

     And yet you don't understand why we have firewalled cable/DSL routers, now, and have happily explained to us that you don't understand common mechanisms that worms propagate themselves. You only have a partial understanding of how things truly work - and seeing as you're living in a glass house, perhaps you ought not throw stones at others, accusing them of the same things....

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The loser of a debate is always the first one to call names and curse...sad, but predicted  

     Did I call a name?? Or did I just reuse a term that you've already used (making you the first to use it, BTW...)
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John.Murray
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 10:20:54 PM »
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I am going to build myself a new computer to use for Lightroom and Adobe Creative Suite (I'll be getting CS3), plus general use.

What sould I be looking for in a CPU, RAM, Video, Scrach Disk, Hard Drive, Motherboard? Any other thought?

I have ideas of what I want to go with but wanted to see what other people would do. My plan was double monitors but after playing with LR I think a widescreen would be best, 26" or larger. Is that right?

I have about 2K to spend without monitor.

Any ideas? I'll wait untill the July 22 prive drop from Intel, but would like to start getting the other parts soon.

Thanks
Todd
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Todd:  You've probably noticed that current CPU's tend to have more cores as opposed to higher clock-speeds.  I'm runming LR and CS2 on a (fairly) new Dual Core Intel 955 Chipset mainboard.  Although the clockspeed is significantly less than my main P4-3Ghz (prescott) - it runs LR more efficiently.  I believe this is mainly due to 2 factors:

The 955 Chipset support the faster DDR2-667 Memory (1033 Front Side Bus Speed).  The P4 supports DDR-400.

Lightroom definately takes advantage of the additional cores.

Finally, the power equirements of the newer Dual Core Procs are significantly less, resulting in a cooler running, quieter machine.  Once you work without the steady drone of noisy cooling fans you'll never look back . . .

Don't worry too much about the video subsystem - ATI seems to be a bit ahead of NVidea for Vista driver support - 256MB seems to be a nice cost/value point -personally I favor nVidea

I'm running a 27" Dell - thanks to some input on this forum, It's no longer too bright - in fact, I love it!

Don't forget to budget $200-300 for some form of display color management.  Note that Vista's UAC (user account control) will nail any loaded display profile, forcing you to reload it.  There *are* alternatives to disabling UAC.

I'd recommend a 64-bit O/S XP or Vista *only* if you are *sure* your peripherals have WHCL (hardware compatibility lab) or "signed" driver support - in fact if you choose Vista, it's required.  I personally have *never* accepted anything less than signed drivers for years now, and as a result have never had a "blue screen".

You'll probably be budgeting an office application as well - I'd strongly recommend MS-Office 2007 basic; it's E-Mail client no longer relies on the system bowser to render HTML - reducing probably the single most exploited inroad to system security; email and it's ever-present spam / malicious attachments / bogus website links.

Finally - security / bug fixes for *all* operating systems is a continuing process, not an end achievement - keep it patched and updated!

2K is a nice budget!  Have fun!

-John
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 10:39:11 PM by Joh.Murray » Logged

kaelaria
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« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2007, 08:01:09 AM »
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Dave, Dave, Dave...you *still* don't get it.  We are in 2007 now, Dave.  We aren't talking about what was a problem in 'the early part of the decade'.  You can rant about past problems, old versions of windows, attacks that have been thwarted years ago...irrelavent - no point even bringing it up.  If you want to go that way, let's be fair and talk about all the old bugs in the past versions of MacOS...hmmmmm?  Didn't think so.

You still have'nt given one example of a *current* problem as you described.  Is the sky falling on all us PC users yet Dave?  

Looking forward to your next blowup session, Dave
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X-Re
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« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2007, 08:10:02 AM »
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Dave, Dave, Dave...you *still* don't get it.

     You're funny, man  Typical tactics of the man proven wrong - dodge and reflect...


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We aren't talking about what was a problem in 'the early part of the decade'. 

      You seem to miss the point - or you can't handle being proven wrong. Either way, doesn't matter. You wanted an example of a way that a machine could be infected with a virus that didn't involve user action - because you claimed it couldn't happen. I showed you one. You lose. Sorry your ego can't handle that  You can't beat facts, bub. Simple fact - programmers writing sucky code leaves holes that can be exploited - and with no action of the user, other than turning the machine on and connecting it to a network.

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If you want to go that way, let's be fair and talk about all the old bugs in the past versions of MacOS...hmmmmm?  Didn't think so.

     Please do, if you feel the need. Like I said before, I don't run MacOS, so its irrelevant to me. In fact, why don't you show us where a Mac has been infected without user action. Surely you're expert enough to dredge that sort of info up, huh? I mean, now that I've proven to you that it can happen and all...

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You still have'nt given one example of a *current* problem as you described.

     And I won't. Until you answer the questions in my previous posts, you're not worth the effort  Your avoidance shows you don't know, and you're afraid you're wrong. Like I said, you're funny. Are you truly an expert, or just another "I thump my chest on Internet forums and shout down people who disagree" bully? Come on, man, prove it  Or can't you?

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Looking forward to your next blowup session, Dave
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     I'm totally ROTFLMAO... you haven't even raised my blood pressure one bit. In return, I'm looking forward to your next weaseling away from the issue you brought up in the first place. I need a good laugh!

     ETA: I'm tired of polluting this thread, going nowhere. If you decided you'd like to actually respond, instead of dodge, and show that you do know about that which you speak, I might listen. Otherwise, I'm done talking to a brick wall  
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 08:15:19 AM by X-Re » Logged

kaelaria
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« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2007, 08:18:02 AM »
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Whatever you say Dave - you win!  Your internet schlong is bigger than mine!  LOL

I'll leave you to tout how you are right, I'm wrong, the sky is falling and PCs all around the world are crashing from just sitting there, because the OS is soooo full of holes, and everyone should buy a Mac

Noooooot!
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X-Re
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2007, 08:34:33 AM »
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This was far easier than I thought it might be - simple Google search turns this up. http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/...n/ms06-040.mspx - from August last year, vulnerability in RPC, affects any running system at the time. Their workaround was to disable RPC ports on the firewall (which kaelaria doesn't understand - I guess that word's too big for him) until a fix was available. Its a good bet that more of these are hiding in the code. Its also a good bet that there are several of these vulnerabilities in MacOS X.

Suffice it to say, holes have existed, and will still exist, that can be exploited with no user action. Its the nature of software development.

For comparison's sake, Secunia tracks vulnerabilities for just about anything out there. Windows XP has 185 vulnerabilities tracked against it  - http://secunia.com/product/22/?task=advisories (17 reported this year). MacOS X has 104 vulnerabilities reported against it - http://secunia.com/product/22/?task=advisories (also 17 against it this year). I'd say they both have their issues, and are under a roughly equal amount of pressure from hackers. If anything, that disproves your point about MacOS X not being adopted enough to raise the interest of hackers...

And, I am right, and its just killing you....  
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ToddT
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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2007, 07:52:58 PM »
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Thanks for all the in put.

I looked more into the Macs and I donít think it is for me. I like the Mac Pros but canít justify the money. I donít get the IMac. I can see the Mini for an all in one, but $2400 for an IMac? What do you do if you need to upgrade/replace the monitor? How about adding another hard drive? The guy at the Apple store said you can add as many USB drives you want, like I want my hard drives running at USB speeds. Some one said that PC people tend to upgrade their computers more than Mac people, and I can see why. Because they can!

I think I am going to stick with the PC and go with Vista 64. I am waiting to see what the new prices from Intel will be (lower prices around the 22nd I hear) and maybe go with a quad core.

Thanks again.

PS Someone said that I might be able to get a Dell for less than I can build and in a lot of cases that is true. But when there a things that you know you want like fast hard drives (10K RPM) for the OS and a large drive for data, more memory, certain video card, things like that and you can save a lot of money to build. And I like doing it too.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2007, 08:03:15 PM »
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Todd:

If you're "rolling your own", check out Antec's Sonata enclosure:

Large Diameter Cooling Fan
Shock Mounted Drive Cage and Mounts
Piano Black Finish
Front Panel Audio / USB / Firewire Access

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15138

Have Fun
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allan67
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2007, 09:15:23 PM »
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Hello,

There was a series of articles on Tom's Hardware site about building different configuration systems: from low to high end. And then they overclocked the high and low end system.
The builds were mostly games oriented, but some good ideas on the best price/perfomance components.

Tom's Hardware Build Marathon

Tom's Hardware Overclocking Marathon

Hope this will help.

Allan
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 09:17:45 PM by allan67 » Logged
wtlloyd
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2007, 07:20:14 PM »
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Jeez, 2007 and fan-boy flame wars are still going strong...some people never catch on.

Hey, there's a pretty darn good thread over at DPreview, of all places, regarding current configurations and hardware for photo use machines -

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=23680115

My two cents - I don't think Vista is ready to play nice entirely - YMMV. I would not look at 64 bit OS at this time, my preference (I'm building a new system next month) will be to stay with the fully mature WinXP - I use BreezeBrowser, which doesn't run on Apple (don't talk to me about BootCamp) and other such misc photo programs. You can get 3GB to run on a WinXP platform, that and a speedy cache drive are really very, very adequate.

Good luck, and remember - the sweet spot is one step below the current ultimate high end technology.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2007, 12:16:45 AM »
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Hi!

I don't know if this helps but it seems that Lightroom does not use multiple CPU:s very efficiently. It can use multiple CPUs for background tasks, like generating slide shows. The foreground task seems not utilizing multiple CPUs. For instance it doesn't seem to create more than one preview at a time. Having more than 3 GByte of memory may be helpful.

To me it seems that Lightroom is quite fast, once it has generated all it's previews. To me it seems considerably more stable and responsive on my iMac than om my Windows box. The Windows machine is on Athlon (dual core) while the iMac is Intel Core dual. The AMD is a bit faster, both in benchmarks and on real applications. I have seen that most times Lightroom is sluggish it depends  on lack of free memory and swapping.

That said I have seen very few programs that actually are using both cores of a dual CPU.

Best regards

Erik

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I wonder if the new set of iMacs are good enough to a workable speed in Lightroom, or if one should aim higher, at a Mac Pro...
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ToddT
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2007, 05:29:50 PM »
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Hey, there's a pretty darn good thread over at DPreview, of all places, regarding current configurations and hardware for photo use machines -

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=23680115

My two cents - I don't think Vista is ready to play nice entirely - YMMV. I would not look at 64 bit OS at this time, my preference (I'm building a new system next month) will be to stay with the fully mature WinXP - I use BreezeBrowser, which doesn't run on Apple (don't talk to me about BootCamp) and other such misc photo programs. You can get 3GB to run on a WinXP platform, that and a speedy cache drive are really very, very adequate.

Good luck, and remember - the sweet spot is one step below the current ultimate high end technology.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is a good thread at DPR. The computer that is being talked about is very close to what I was planning on building. I think I'll go with XP Pro and 3gigs of RAM, and the same drive setup.

Thanks again
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theophilus
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2007, 07:23:52 PM »
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Todd,

I suggest not asking how to build a computer in photography forums, I would venture over to Ars Technica.

They put together a great system building guide every 3 months or so:
Ars Technica system building guide

There are also many people in their forums who use photoshop and lightroom to process RAW images.

Some of the greatest speed gains that you will see are based on proper partitioning and usage of your hard drives.  It's especially important to get the Windows and Photoshop scratch disks onto separate hard drives, with all of your photos onto a 3rd drive.
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budjames
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2007, 06:46:40 AM »
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Buy a Mac so that you can spend time using your computer instead of tinkering with it to get the OS to behave and play nice with your hardware.
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Bud James
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« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2007, 08:50:28 AM »
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Hi -
I just finished building a core2 duo machine. It has 2G of DDR2 800mhz ram, a 10,000k raptor SATA HD for the OS (XP 2nd edition), CS3, and LR, and 2 - 7200k SATA HD's (one for images, one for scratch drive. It also has a Geforce 8800 GTS video card (completely over the top for photo editing, but essential for relaxing with your favorite 1st person shooter game   )

Lightroom loads in about 4 seconds, CS3 in about 9 seconds. Filters that used to take MINUTES to apply in Photoshop, now take less than 30 seconds. I haven't had a single lock up, BSOD or any other problem whatsoever.

I couldn't be happier with this setup; there were zero software compatibility issues when installing all my print drivers, Photoshop plug ins, monitor profiling software, and Colorbyte RIP software - mainly because I chose to avoid VISTA.  Maybe after a service pack or two, I'll switch operating systems, but for now XP is a mature product and I know my way around it.

With the exception of the video card, the system cost about $1300; add a more reasonable video card (ATI radeon PCI express, for example), and you're looking at $1650 or so. Well within the $2000 budget of the original poster.

Check out www.newegg.com They supplied me with most of my parts.

-E
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