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Author Topic: Square digital backs  (Read 10482 times)
william
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« on: July 22, 2007, 03:03:54 PM »
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I realize this is idle speculation, but I'm wondering if there is any reliable word of forthcoming square medium format sensors for cameras like the Hassy V, Rollei or Hy6?  I was out shooting film with my Hassy 203 FE today for the first time in a long time and realized I'd forgotten how much I like shooting square with a waist level finder.  I'm less interested in absolute megapixel count (16 or so would be fine with me) and more interested in a physically larger sensor than what's currently available (I believe all the square sensors that currently exist have a 1.5 crop, which I just wouldn't be able to live with).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not morally opposed to film or anything and since I'm now only shooting for personal work, I can use film when using the Hassy.  But it would be nice to have a full format (or closer to full format) digital option.  I'd imagine there has to be not-insignificant demand for such a sensor, especially in the price range of the P20 and CFV backs (which I believe are less than $10K).

I should add that I'm aware that Sinar is marketing the Hy6 with speculation about there "one day" being full frame 6x6 sensors.  But I don't know how realistic or imminent that is thought to be, or whether it's just marketing hype.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 03:06:17 PM by william » Logged
uaiomex
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 06:01:35 PM »
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I do too miss a lot shooting with my 50CM. Love the square for a lot of things.
Equally I care more for larger sensors than more megapixels. My minimun count would be 22, so when I crop to rectangular I couls still have 16mp or so. My minimun personal crop factor is around 1.25X, larger than that, doesn't cut it for me.

I do believe that larger sensors will eventually come. Just think abou it. If you come with a multi-million development like the Hy6/AFi, why make it 56X56mm if commercial sensors had topped their in size?
By all counts, designing from scratch an only-digital 48X48mm sensor digital MF system would be a lot easier and optimized from birth to this size.
It doesn't  make sense to me they went to all that trouble just for film.
In my particular case, I would go into a only-digital system even with a reduced (from 120 film sizes) sensor. if it meant a better price.
Best
Eduardo

Quote
I realize this is idle speculation, but I'm wondering if there is any reliable word of forthcoming square medium format sensors for cameras like the Hassy V, Rollei or Hy6?  I was out shooting film with my Hassy 203 FE today for the first time in a long time and realized I'd forgotten how much I like shooting square with a waist level finder.  I'm less interested in absolute megapixel count (16 or so would be fine with me) and more interested in a physically larger sensor than what's currently available (I believe all the square sensors that currently exist have a 1.5 crop, which I just wouldn't be able to live with).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not morally opposed to film or anything and since I'm now only shooting for personal work, I can use film when using the Hassy.  But it would be nice to have a full format (or closer to full format) digital option.  I'd imagine there has to be not-insignificant demand for such a sensor, especially in the price range of the P20 and CFV backs (which I believe are less than $10K).

I should add that I'm aware that Sinar is marketing the Hy6 with speculation about there "one day" being full frame 6x6 sensors.  But I don't know how realistic or imminent that is thought to be, or whether it's just marketing hype.
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narikin
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 06:11:27 PM »
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never going to happen.

HY6 kept it so that the last few MF film users felt comfortable, as they could use both.
and the marketing BS merchants took over to pump this 'feature'

there will not be a decent 6x6 sensor for at least a decade.
forget about it.
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jimgolden
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 06:17:26 PM »
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I think we'll see a larger SQ sensor in the not too distant future, I dont think it's really that much of a stretch, but it'll probably be a fortune...$35k+, 50+MP, 48x48mm
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 06:19:17 PM by jimgolden » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 07:01:11 PM »
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I don't who are the marketing BS merchants meant here, and how much of a marketing hype it is to mention that the Hy6 system is open for possible larger sensors?

I simply remind and refer to my own posts here, in many different treads and when asked about this: don't speculate on something which is not here and which, if decided, may take years to hit the market.

Best regards,
Thierry

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and the marketing BS merchants took over to pump this 'feature'

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Quote
I should add that I'm aware that Sinar is marketing the Hy6 with speculation about there "one day" being full frame 6x6 sensors.  But I don't know how realistic or imminent that is thought to be, or whether it's just marketing hype.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 11:45:25 PM »
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Eleven years from now is no "never going to happen"
Anyway, I believe it's going to happen in only 4-5 years time.
Maybe not 56X56 but a 42X56 sensor.

I remember 7 years ago, I said I was expecting for a full-frame digital EOS. Someone replied it was never going to happen because a telecentric new line of lenses should be needed. Now we have 2 full-frames cameras working with the non telecentric line of glass. More coming.
Should we close the patent office now?

Best
Eduardo



Quote
never going to happen.

HY6 kept it so that the last few MF film users felt comfortable, as they could use both.
and the marketing BS merchants took over to pump this 'feature'

there will not be a decent 6x6 sensor for at least a decade.
forget about it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Khun_K
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2007, 02:03:47 AM »
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Eleven years from now is no "never going to happen"
Anyway, I believe it's going to happen in only 4-5 years time.
Maybe not 56X56 but a 42X56 sensor.

I remember 7 years ago, I said I was expecting for a full-frame digital EOS. Someone replied it was never going to happen because a telecentric new line of lenses should be needed. Now we have 2 full-frames cameras working with the non telecentric line of glass. More coming.
Should we close the patent office now?

Best
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Although most magazine is more or less to the proportion of 6X4.5 but there are a lot of coffee table book and art book is square format, as well as the fine art reproduction side may also prefer the square format.
Rather than speculate, I suppose we, the photogrpahers, should welcome such a format to be available, it will be fine if we don't use them, but we shall not disguise those who wished it. The format has its functional purpose but also inspirational purpose.  We should be thankful that a company like Sinar/F&H has such endeavor to develop and refine a proven platform and include such possibility in offering.
The fact is, the Hy6 works just fine with the current sensor as everyone else, doing so at compact size and light-weight package and suppose in competitive cost, no bigger and heavier than what are available in the market that is confined to 36X48mm (or around) size sensor. It provides a room for perhaps future sensor and what's wrong about it? Even the larger, square snesor never come (I hope it will), the square format Hy6 at least offer the rotable function that itself is already a very good solution for almost all the photographers wants to qucik switch between orientations.
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stuartr
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 06:44:37 AM »
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I think you all are probably underestimating the number of MF users still interested in using film. Certainly the number of people using MF cameras with film is greater than the numbers using them with digital backs. There are a lot of 6000 series users with a number of lenses who are interested in the Hy6, and interested in it primarily as a film camera. The Rollei system of lenses was designed for 6x6, so it makes sense to have that size available for film or future larger sensors. All the moreso considering it has not increased the size of the camera much if at all. It is still the same size (if not smaller) than the 645 competitors like the Contax 645, H1/2/3, AFD and so on.

Stuart
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wolfnowl
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 01:36:14 PM »
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I for one have always appreciated the square format.  In addition to it's native size, there is also a built-in horizontal and vertical crop automatically available.  If/when a square sensor becomes available, I'd certainly consider it...

Mike.
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2007, 04:24:52 AM »
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I for one have always appreciated the square format.  In addition to it's native size, there is also a built-in horizontal and vertical crop automatically available.  If/when a square sensor becomes available, I'd certainly consider it...

Mike.
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Well I hope Sinar et al, all make an acessory for their backs which mean that the back can be rotated 90 deg. without detaching the back. As this arragement will add depth to teh back, to maintain proper focusing, the back will have to be verry highly engineered and the Hy6 may have to take this into account from day one of the design. With a rotiating back we can use a WLF and not worry about 6X6 sized sensors at all.

Someone tell me there is a rotating back option for the Hy6!
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stuartr
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2007, 05:13:00 AM »
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I am pretty sure they already do that with the emotion backs on the Rollei 6008 AF. The Rollei film back does it, but you have to pop the back out and pop it back in (it takes barely any time, but for a digital sensor there might be the possibility of getting dust on it, so perhaps they have figured out a different way to do it).
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Dustbak
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2007, 05:53:53 AM »
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Well I hope Sinar et al, all make an acessory for their backs which mean that the back can be rotated 90 deg. without detaching the back. As this arragement will add depth to teh back, to maintain proper focusing, the back will have to be verry highly engineered and the Hy6 may have to take this into account from day one of the design. With a rotiating back we can use a WLF and not worry about 6X6 sized sensors at all.

Someone tell me there is a rotating back option for the Hy6!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In another thread a while ago Thierry (THSinar) mentioned they were developing it at this momen.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2007, 06:11:13 AM »
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Well not wanting to be picky, but I wonder if someone still remembers Dicomeds Bigshot ? ;-)

Folks 12 Years ago I happened to use such a beast with 55x55mm for 2 years, and indeed I liked it quite well (as I  knew how to handle it). The price tag was hefty (about 50 around 65k $ at that time for the color version) but too few people bought it and Dicomed disappeared into the dust of History.

At that time the quality was superior to my Leaf DCB II Life, but the handling and support were definitely poor (I only say SCSI III-Jack Hammer the disappearing back game - there you see it, next you dont...........0-((((((  )

So I really ask: who would buy this now ?
Be honest with a price tag of lets say 40000 $ and a net file size of 50MP would you buy it ?
Who would really need it Huh?

Id say very few people !

Just my 10 cents

Greetings from Munich

Stefan
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 06:13:18 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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Dustbak
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2007, 06:52:18 AM »
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Well not wanting to be picky, but I wonder if someone still remembers Dicomeds Bigshot ? ;-)

Folks 12 Years ago I happened to use such a beast with 55x55mm for 2 years, and indeed I liked it quite well (as I  knew how to handle it). The price tag was hefty (about 50 € around 65k $ at that time for the color version) but too few people bought it and Dicomed disappeared into the dust of History.

At that time the quality was superior to my Leaf DCB II Life, but the handling and support were definitely poor (I only say SCSI III-Jack Hammer the disappearing back game - there you see it, next you dont...........0-((((((  )

So I really ask: who would buy this now ?
Be honest with a price tag of lets say 40000 $ and a net file size of 50MP would you buy it ?
Who would really need it Huh?

Id say very few people !

Just my 10 cents

Greetings from Munich

Stefan
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I still remember the bigshot. Sofar the only '6x6' sensor I am aware of. No, I would not be willing to put down that amount of cash for a back. 22K USD already was a big stretch. I still like to pick my assignments and see & raise my kids instead of working my ass off to cover depreciation (don't finance anything so no interest burden fortunately)
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2007, 09:20:21 AM »
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For the manufacturer's of the Hy6/AFI the question of when they will produce a 6x6 digital version is of less relavance than at what price point photographers would buy the square format. Since most of the new iterations of digital MF are in the $30k range, it is not unreasonable that a 6x6 digital Hy6/AFI would also be in that range. The idle speculation is probably less idle than the need for Hy6/AFI manufacturers to sell in the 645 version first.
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thsinar
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2007, 05:28:50 PM »
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Dear Ed,

I had informed some time ago that Sinar is manufacturing rotatable adapters allowing to rotate the backs WITHOUT having to take them away: studies have been made and it is mechaniclly possible. Adapters are in production.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Well I hope Sinar et al, all make an acessory for their backs which mean that the back can be rotated 90 deg. without detaching the back. As this arragement will add depth to teh back, to maintain proper focusing, the back will have to be verry highly engineered and the Hy6 may have to take this into account from day one of the design. With a rotiating back we can use a WLF and not worry about 6X6 sized sensors at all.

Someone tell me there is a rotating back option for the Hy6!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2007, 09:30:40 PM »
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Really?!!!    Fantastic!    Awsome!!

Now I'm sure there is a Sinar in my future.
Just don't know when.

Eduardo  


Quote
Dear Ed,

I had informed some time ago that Sinar is manufacturing rotatable adapters allowing to rotate the backs WITHOUT having to take them away: studies have been made and it is mechaniclly possible. Adapters are in production.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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vandevanterSH
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 11:10:59 PM »
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I realize this is idle speculation, but I'm wondering if there is any reliable word of forthcoming square medium format sensors for cameras like the Hassy V, Rollei or Hy6?  I was out shooting film with my Hassy 203 FE today for the first time in a long time and realized I'd forgotten how much I like shooting square with a waist level finder.  I'm less interested in absolute megapixel count (16 or so would be fine with me) and more interested in a physically larger sensor than what's currently available (I believe all the square sensors that currently exist have a 1.5 crop, which I just wouldn't be able to live with).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not morally opposed to film or anything and since I'm now only shooting for personal work, I can use film when using the Hassy.  But it would be nice to have a full format (or closer to full format) digital option.  I'd imagine there has to be not-insignificant demand for such a sensor, especially in the price range of the P20 and CFV backs (which I believe are less than $10K).

I should add that I'm aware that Sinar is marketing the Hy6 with speculation about there "one day" being full frame 6x6 sensors.  But I don't know how realistic or imminent that is thought to be, or whether it's just marketing hype.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I bought a CFV back for my 503 and it renewed by interest in MF.  If you haven't tried it may be you could rent one.  Unless you have an absolute need for wide angle, the 50 or 40mm is probably satisfactory with the CFV.

Steve
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levinson
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2007, 01:20:13 AM »
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Dear Ed,

I had informed some time ago that Sinar is manufacturing rotatable adapters allowing to rotate the backs WITHOUT having to take them away: studies have been made and it is mechaniclly possible. Adapters are in production.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi thierry,

that's music to my ears. finally. i'll follow it up with allen.

regards,
jeanne
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william
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2007, 08:37:47 AM »
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I doubt I'd be shooting really wide all that often with the Hassy, so yes, the 40mm might just barely be doable for me with a 1.5x crop.  But then there's also the fact of losing all that real estate in the viewfinder, which is one of the things I love about shooting 6x6.  A 1.5x viewfinder mask is cropping off a lot of the viewable area.


Quote
I bought a CFV back for my 503 and it renewed by interest in MF.  If you haven't tried it may be you could rent one.  Unless you have an absolute need for wide angle, the 50 or 40mm is probably satisfactory with the CFV.

Steve
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