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Author Topic: Advantages of Leaf, Phase One vs Mamiya ZD  (Read 14707 times)
Anthony R
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« on: July 31, 2007, 10:41:41 AM »
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What might be the advantages/disadvantages beyond personal bias (ie. I own the Leaf 65, etc) of using one or the other of these backs. Obviously the ZD has caused quite a stir with it's relatively low entry point. I shoot with a Contax 645 and enjoy it very much and would rather not switch my kit if possible but...

I've been pro Leaf for the most part until Phase One's recent products. Of course there is always the proprietary Capture One issue as well. What would I give up if I were to switch to the ZD?

Any commentary, spec list, etc would be appreciated. I primarily shoot people: beauty, fashion, portrait.
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clawery
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2007, 12:54:19 PM »
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I think that the biggest issue would be shoot speed.  The ZD is priced right, but would have a hard time keeping up with the newer Phase One P+s and the S series from Leaf.

Chris Lawery
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thsinar
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2007, 01:00:58 PM »
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... and the LV's from Sinar!

 

Thierry

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I think that the biggest issue would be shoot speed.  The ZD is priced right, but would have a hard time keeping up with the newer Phase One P+s and the S series from Leaf.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 01:04:14 PM »
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... and the LV's from Sinar!

 

Thierry
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Didn't mean to leave you our Thierry.  Sorry about that.

Chris Lawery
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clawery
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 01:05:40 PM »
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Leave you out .. not our.

Chris Lawery
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Snook
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 01:33:59 PM »
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Hello anthony and thanks for the post.
I am in the same boat as you but have the problem that where I live I can test nor even see anything. Just have to trust in these types of forums which stinks.
I am thinking about going with the Mamiya 645AFDII with a P30+ or P25+ back.
The AFDII with a P30+ back is around 15,990 w/ 1 year warranty and 17,990 w/ 3 year warranty.
I have been using the Canon 1DsMII or 1Ds series for the last 5 years more or less and have always missed the Medium format as I started photography with medium format and love it. Just the price range was way out of the park until the last 6months more or less.

I am think about getting the 645AFD and the ZD back until the P30+ delivers which might be a while.
I appreciate your post and was wondering many of the same things as you.

Apart from speed are the files actually MUCH different.
I would like to add that I never really shoot above 100 asa even with the 1DsMII which is quite capable.
 I am drawn more and more to the 3D look medium format digital has.
Hope some real users post here b/c I would like to know also.
Snook
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Anthony R
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 02:02:57 PM »
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Thanks for the replies thus far. Shoot speed is a consideration, but not the only. I have an extensive digital background when it comes to the files from Phase One and Leaf as I am a high end retoucher in NYC.  As such I am very particular and have continued the use of film for my work when it comes to capture. However, as I am only just starting to make a living shooting, film costs, processing, turnaround time and scanning is getting to be a bother and I believe that digital is finally up to par with film or near enough. I'm not a fan of Mamiya per se, nor the H1 for that matter and have really become quite enamored with the Contax and of course I've kitted myself out quite a bit with it. I see quite a bit more Phase One taking over NY in my world when a few years back it was a Leaf town. I rarely need to shoot above 200 iso myself, but I do shoot people and having to wait for a buffer isn't going to fly. I remember when Leaf first introduced non tethered backs and they were pretty unusable due to the wait. Anyway, what gets me most about even the highest end digital is the low light absence of information in the shadows, color, noise, etc. I do shoot low light scenes. Then there are highlight issues...

How far ahead of a 5d/MK II is the Mamiya back going to be, not close enough to a p30 or 65? Think they will ever make a ZD back to fit my Contax? Should I even care and just go with a P30or +?
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Snook
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 03:35:40 PM »
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One thing I have noticed just from spec but I might be wrong is that the ZD shoots RAW and Jpeg together which is Plus for me. I would hate to have to change all the days shoot into small jpegs as with the 1DsMII flow right now I shoot RAW+jpegs and love the easy editing. Edit select with jpegs and only use raw when I know what I need. I also burn a Jpeg only cd for the client then the ask for the RAWs.
Very convienant.
I thought I saw some where that Phase one only shoot one or the other.. Not both.
What a pain to ripp the jpegs I think. Kind of stupid if it is that way..?
I see you like contax but I have heard from several buddies that the Contax (autofocus) camera has always had all kinds of problems. Yeh the optics are great but the camera itself kind of has problems. Cannot confirm this nor how the AFDII Mamiya is b/c I used the Pro Tl for many years...
In any case what ever your comfortable with I guess..:+}
I also heard the speed of the ZD is quite slow and the p+ series is lightning fast. Again hearsay...
Looking forward to this post.
I was actually thinking about trying out the ZD for a while as it is really cheap compared to other backs. I am not a speed freak but would hate to wait for buffering to long.
Battery life on the ZD would be  nice to know about also I guess.
Well hope some people ring in here to tell us their side.
I doubt Mmaiya will make a Contax ZD back but you never know. Some one might make an adapter if there is much of a demand.?
Snook
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 03:37:15 PM by Snook » Logged
Eric Zepeda
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007, 04:45:04 PM »
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I thought I saw some where that Phase one only shoot one or the other.. Not both.
What a pain to ripp the jpegs I think. Kind of stupid if it is that way..?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

C1 Pro rips quickproofs pretty fast,  plus you have jpegs that more closely resemble the hi-res file. I've never liked Canon's in camera jpegs for the 1Ds and 1DsMkII. Phase also has a preview converter that blazes low quality jpegs, but I don't think it's compatible w/Plus series yet.

LC11 automatically generates jpegs on the fly...comes in handy for the impatinet AD who wants to send off something asap to the magazine staff at home.
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Snook
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2007, 05:10:50 PM »
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Eric you hit the nail on the head. All my Art directors want things yesterday. I do not have a full time staff working for me so it is a pain for me to convert. Your right though C-1 is blazing fast.
But when I shoot I only use C-1 to convert my final images that are selected.
I do not want to load 1000 images from a days shoot that are in all different kinds of folders depending on the days shoot. Fashion shoots are a dfifferent story, but I shoot a lot of Catalogue and there is no better way than to down load the cards with a firewire 400 reader and store them to desk top and external HD at the same time. The I burn all Jpegs for clients. Cannot get an easier than that. But I do agree that C-1 Rips them fast. Even on my new MacPro the C-1 Rips full 16bit tiff amazing fast!
No need to import all to C-1. That would be a waste of time.
My workflow is Preview Low jpegs in either Iview media or Aperture and then use C-1 for final conversion only.
You cannot get faster than that.
ZD wins for me in that aspect.. too bad I think it is way slower buffering to card... I guess you have to wait somewhere along the line.
Snook
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mcfoto
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 05:38:16 PM »
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Hi
I own a ZD camera & use it like a DSLR. For example on a plane trip I will shoot out the window with the ZD/55-110 zoom lens. It is not much bigger than my Canon 5D but the DR is way better. As far as speed goes it shoots @ 1.2 f/s for 11 frames. When it comes to studio shooting I prefer renting the Aptus 22 about the same speed but I don't have to worry about the buffer. Software Leaf is better however I have heard that LR will be available for tethered shooting with the ZD about a month ago from Foto Care NYC. I am always shooting clouds & other details for backgrounds for future jobs & personal work & the ZD camera is the best camera I have ever used for that purpose. It is light weight & less awkward that a DB. I generally shoot @ iso 50-100. It seems the latest firmware upgrade for the zd has improved the iso range. Cost wise the Mamiya lenses are a deal, except for the 75-150 & 28 mm. At $7000.00 USD with LR I think the ZD back is a deal & lets you into the MF world with an open camera system for Leaf, Sinar, Phase & Imacon digital backs.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Snook
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2007, 06:05:17 PM »
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I agree 100% mcfoto..
6,999.00 is still way cheaper than film for the same process by far if you think about it. A while back my initial plan was to get the AFDII and ZD back to "try" Medium format until my P+30 would come in, then I could sell off the ZD if I wanted to and felt the P+30 was better or more for me.
Poroblem now is I have been offered a new AFDII kit if I purchase a P30+..
When you say the buffer. how long is the buffer wait. I have heard this several times now. You said you bang off 11 frames at 1.2 fps then how long do you have to wait for that to buffer?
I many times on my 1DsMII fire off so many shots that I have to wait for it... When referring to the Film days that is not long at all. I could always repack a 120 back quite fast but not that fast I think... use to have contest with my assistant when bored...:+]
In anycase could you please let me know how long you have to wait to buffer the full 11 frames that you shot at 1.2 fps please.
I'd appreciate it and any input.
Also is it like Canon Primes.. the Primes on Mmaiya are better than the Zoom like with the Pro tl. In other words are the zooms still producing lower IQ than the Primes in the auto focus range of zooms of course?
Thanks so much
Snook
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mcfoto
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2007, 07:01:23 PM »
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Hi
When the buffer fills up that is when the ZD slows down. Lets put it this way it is not a fast camera any more. But this depends on how fast you shoot. For example if you shoot lets say 7-8 frames then change your composition or change what you are shooting then the buffer will clear while you do this. If you are a fashion shooter who shoots fast then the ZD will not work for you. But at the same time 1.2 f/s is faster than some current digital backs on the market.

Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Snook
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2007, 07:11:10 PM »
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Thank you Denis...
That change of composition you spoke of is that like a minute or so.. I used to shoot really slow but got really spoiled with the 1DsMII firing off so fast and the buffer is fast!
I know there is no comparison. A friend just got a P45+ and the first thing he told me was man it is fast, He said he can just fire and fire and the back keeps right up no problem. I am sure in any case I will have to get used to shooting that way again. I have always complained about the focus on the 1dsMII and how DARK the viewfinder is. So I will look forward to a brighter viewing screen which I prefer.
I am a fashion photographer and not a sports or wedding , firing off a million shots. I usually know when I want to fire but got lazy with the canon to capture also that un expected moment as well.
I will definetly have to change my shooting style a bit.
Thank you very much for you inf..
Snook
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 07:13:24 PM by Snook » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2007, 01:02:56 AM »
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no problem Chris!  

Best regards,
Thierry

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Didn't mean to leave you our Thierry.  Sorry about that.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2007, 02:18:21 AM »
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Only when working with wind and smoke the buffer can be a problem because there is so much going on.

I shoot tethered to LR by running the Mamiya software in the background, but I'm leaning more and more towards the Mamiya software because it turns the pictures to portrait for me and I love to see where I stand buffer wise.
Today I will experiment with the dual monitor setup which I loved with C1 and with my post workflow (studio and post are two seperate locations here, I love to do my work at home which is 50mtrs from the studio).

On one monitor the mamiya software will run showing the buffer etc.
On the other one lightroom with the hotfolder.

The mamiya software has some serious flaws to be the perfect studio software, with the biggest being not able to browse without opening windows all over the place.

In normal work the buffer never was a real problem for me, I shot faster on the 5D, but most of the time I was wondering myself why, because it was not really necessary.
1.2fps is more than adequate and 11 frames is also alot when you think about it.
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frankric
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2007, 04:20:47 AM »
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Once you fill the buffer on the ZD camera it takes just over 100 seconds to fully clear. You can of course take a shot as soon as one of those 11 is written to the card, which is about 10 seconds. I assume the ZD back would have the same or similar performance.

A Sandisk Extreme lll 8gb and an Extreme lV 4gb gave the same times.

So you can shoot at 1 frame per 1.2 seconds for 11 shots, then approximately one shot every 10 seconds.

Regards

Frank
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clawery
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2007, 08:51:30 AM »
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Eric was correct that the Preview Converter is very fast, but it does not work on P+ files.
QuickProofs are also a good way to make a quick and easy Jpeg.

As far as Contax goes, they seem to be a pretty solid camera.  They are a bit slow on the focus side compared to a H1 or H2.  The biggest issue with Contax is that they aren't being manufactured any more.  That being said, you are fighting for unique lenses or odd parts on EBay with other shooters.

Chris Lawery
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Snook
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2007, 05:43:33 PM »
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Thanks a lot Frank for your Comments..
And Sorry for any hard feelings.. Had a bad day..
Hope you can get over it.
Thanks again for all your information.
Snook
PS. Anybody notice that Adorama List them as in stock.. ?
Wierd?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 08:01:13 PM by Snook » Logged
Anthony R
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2007, 09:13:28 PM »
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Alright.

Again, thanks for the replies. Thierry, you want to talk about the sinar backs? I'm quite curious about what kinds of quality I can expect for the expenditure of say 15k (new or used) with any of these backs.

Quote
Thanks a lot Frank for your Comments..
And Sorry for any hard feelings.. Had a bad day..
Hope you can get over it.
Thanks again for all your information.
Snook
PS. Anybody notice that Adorama List them as in stock.. ?
Wierd?
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« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 09:16:27 PM by Anthony R » Logged
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