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Author Topic: HP APS... plea for clarity  (Read 7660 times)
claskin
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2007, 02:16:25 PM »
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So far IP7 for this printer is working well. The transitions are smoother, quite a bit more shadow detail. Yet there are things in the color maps that are not correct for the version and profile (s) I have. I suppose Colorbyte are farther along now, and I'm confident they will deliver a sound , solid performer for the Z. BTW IP7 also works on the 9180!
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Neil,
I appreciate your input here. I am considering the z3100ps but have all of the concerns and questions others have raised regarding the APS. My question is if IP7 might be sufficient rather than going for the APS?

 I already have IP6 for an Epson 4000 so the upgrade to the z3100 will be the same or likely less than the cost for the APS.

Lastly, I own a B9180 currently. Frankly, I'm rather disappointed in its handling of Hahn FA Pearl due to unacceptable bronzing and gloss differential. It may be the paper or profile BUT I am very interested in your comment regarding IP7 working with the B9180. Is it the same version as the one for the z3100?

Carl
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Carl Laskin
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2007, 02:24:49 PM »
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Neil,
I appreciate your input here. I am considering the z3100ps but have all of the concerns and questions others have raised regarding the APS. My question is if IP7 might be sufficient rather than going for the APS?

 I already have IP6 for an Epson 4000 so the upgrade to the z3100 will be the same or likely less than the cost for the APS.

Lastly, I own a B9180 currently. Frankly, I'm rather disappointed in its handling of Hahn FA Pearl due to unacceptable bronzing and gloss differential. It may be the paper or profile BUT I am very interested in your comment regarding IP7 working with the B9180. Is it the same version as the one for the z3100?

Carl
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One thing to note about the z3100 ps version of HP's printer is that it comes with 256mb of ram installed instead of the standard 128mb. Found this out from a rep. Not sure how important that is.
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neil snape
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2007, 02:35:45 PM »
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Neil,
I appreciate your input here. I am considering the z3100ps but have all of the concerns and questions others have raised regarding the APS. My question is if IP7 might be sufficient rather than going for the APS?

 I already have IP6 for an Epson 4000 so the upgrade to the z3100 will be the same or likely less than the cost for the APS.

Lastly, I own a B9180 currently. Frankly, I'm rather disappointed in its handling of Hahn FA Pearl due to unacceptable bronzing and gloss differential. It may be the paper or profile BUT I am very interested in your comment regarding IP7 working with the B9180. Is it the same version as the one for the z3100?



Carl
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Yes or at least my version of IP7 runs all my printers from 44" down, including the 130 and 9180.
Yes FA pearl on the 9180 can have too much gloss differential.
The test version I have of IP7 has only two profiles, so I can't say how many they will have.
If you are to use IP exclusively then APS would allow you to build your profiles for IP7 from APS plots , read and calculate profiles and further apply them in IP7. If you were to use IP7 profiles and if they have all the media profiles you need then the calibration routines in IP7 are much more substantial than the stock HP calibrations. Hence , if IP has the media types you need , then the canned profiles will do everything you need.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 06:11:07 AM by neil snape » Logged
John Hollenberg
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2007, 03:44:42 PM »
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I have a couple of questions on APS, as I am considering purchasing the Z3100:

1) Can APS use a target like the 1728 patch Atkinson target?  If not, what is the largest target that can be used?  I have found (for other printers) that best results seem to be with a moderately large number of patches.  I thought 1728 was better than 918, but the 4096 patch target didn't produce a profile that was any better as far as I could tell.

2) I don't care for the Logo Colorful perceptual intent of Profilemaker, as I have found that it squashes the saturated colors too much.  Prefer the Logo Chroma Plus.  Would there be any problem using a profile created with the APS and reading the data from the profile into Profilemaker to regenerate the profile with my preferred rendering intent?

Thanks.

--John
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Jon Abbott
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2007, 04:55:07 AM »
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I have a couple of questions on APS, as I am considering purchasing the Z3100:

1) Can APS use a target like the 1728 patch Atkinson target?  If not, what is the largest target that can be used?  I have found (for other printers) that best results seem to be with a moderately large number of patches.  I thought 1728 was better than 918, but the 4096 patch target didn't produce a profile that was any better as far as I could tell.

2) I don't care for the Logo Colorful perceptual intent of Profilemaker, as I have found that it squashes the saturated colors too much.  Prefer the Logo Chroma Plus.  Would there be any problem using a profile created with the APS and reading the data from the profile into Profilemaker to regenerate the profile with my preferred rendering intent?

Thanks.

--John
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1) I don't think so. At least that is what I was told by HP and GM; APS is a HP product and not supported by GM. I hope they change their mind on that, or maybe I won't upgrade to the next version of Profiler Pro. As others have mentioned, the z3100 test chart is a series of large hexagon patchs; since the spectro rides above the surface of the paper, the patches need to be larger than in other charts. I don't know how GM/Xrite generated the chart, but it is not an option in Profiler Pro's test Chart Generator to generate a hex patch shape. Anybody know how it was done, or how to generate a larger hex patch chart from a reference file?

1a) This isn't exactly what you were asking, and is obvious, but one can print any standard chart that you have a reference file for (like the Atkinson charts have for i1, Spectrolino, i/o, etc) and read it on a separate spectro. That is what I do when I have the time or inclination (I use a iccolor210,no uv cut filter). But I've really been quite happy with the standard TC918 rgb chart.

2) You can load the reference file and profile made from APS into ProfileMaker 5.0.8, and generate a new profile using any setting you desire. I tried it; it works. The profiles also open in Measure Tool for comparing and averaging. I didn't try Editor, but they will open there too.

BTW, I had a rather interesting visit at the Gretag booth at PhotoExpo a couple of shows ago. In discussing with a GM engineer about the soon to be released i/o, we got on the topic of optimum patch numbers for charts. He said it was the opinion of some at GM that less was better. And he meant way less; but not less than 64! What? Yeah, he explained that the curve was smoother, and that too many patches could create 'choppy' results. Just to prove his point, he pulled out a binder with the same images printed using profiles created from different patch amounts. And then proceeded to show how much more shadow detail was visible in the print made from a profile created using 64 patches. It was true about the shadow detail; but the print was flat, dead and lifeless; no snap. My wife has a more sensitive eye than I, and she couldn't believe it. The larger patch profile print was so much better, and the shadow detail was still there, but more compressed. It was hard to believer we were all looking at the same prints at the same time. So it just goes to show that different people have different tastes. Profiling seems not to be an exact science, but also an (improving) art at this stage. For example, you like ChromaPlus, and so did I after Classic. But now I prefer the newest, Colorful. Theoretically, only the Perceptual rendering intent should have been effected, but I think there are other differences.

Does one need APS for quality prints? Not if one only uses HP papers. Since the printer can be calibrated to a known state (less than one delta E), the HP canned profiles (or other's custom profiles) should work fine. i'd bet the differences between the HP canned profile and a custom APS are going to be very small. And after all, if it is a critical photo, aren't you going to print a proof first anyway and then make fine adjustments in Photoshop? I wish I could generate a custom profile on HP media (but the free paper hasn't arrived) and compare the results to the HP APS TC918 canned profile in Measure tool.  I did do a comparison between a TC918 chart, APS custom profile from the z3100, and one printed and generated by Profiler Pro (on Epson Premium Semimatte Paper), using D50-Large-Neutral Grey-Colorful settings, and got a delta2000 E of under 1 (I think it was under .6, actually), which really suprised me. And, if the calibration between printers is not consistent enough (my Epsons are not), even the ImagePrint Rip canned profiles are not going to be the ultimate, no matter how many patches or special spectros are used. But the z3100 CAN be calibrated for a paper accurately and easily; which takes into account ink density and color changes, humidity, temp, paper batch variations, head wear, and on and on. So you don't have to make large new profiles when something changes (like for my Epsons), just do a re-calibration. Wonderful.
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neil snape
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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2007, 06:32:52 AM »
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1) I don't think so. At least that is what I was told by HP and GM; APS is a HP product and not supported by GM. I hope they change their mind on that, or maybe I won't upgrade to the next version of Profiler Pro. As others have mentioned, the z3100 test chart is a series of large hexagon patchs; since the spectro rides above the surface of the paper, the patches need to be larger than in other charts.

. But I've really been quite happy with the standard TC918 rgb chart.

2) You can load the reference file and profile made from APS into ProfileMaker 5.0.8, and generate a new profile using any setting you desire. I tried it; it works. The profiles also open in Measure Tool for comparing and averaging.

BTW, I had a rather interesting visit at the Gretag booth at PhotoExpo a couple of shows ago. In discussing with a GM engineer about the soon to be released i/o, we got on the topic of optimum patch numbers for charts. He said it was the opinion of some at GM that less was better.
Does one need APS for quality prints?t, APS custom profile from the z3100, and one printed and generated by Profiler Pro (on Epson Premium Semimatte Paper), using D50-Large-Neutral Grey-Colorful settings, and got a delta2000 E of under 1 (I think it was under .6, actually), which really suprised me. And, if the calibration between printers is not consistent enough (my Epsons are not), even the ImagePrint Rip canned profiles are not going to be the ultimate, no matter how many patches or special spectros are used. But the z3100 CAN be calibrated for a paper accurately and easily; which takes into account ink density and color changes, humidity, temp, paper batch variations, head wear, and on and on. So you don't have to make large new profiles when something changes (like for my Epsons), just do a re-calibration. Wonderful.
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APS is a module made by GMB/XRite for HP. They have worked together on this and many other projects  for a long time. I'm not sure who or how they said what they did, but it is not really the way it is. APS is and will continue, and GMB is as involved as ever.
That's not to say that GMB will open up the the HP world of their internal spectro for all. The SDK is available but conditions apply. I have tools to use the internal data however I like, but they will not become public. APS is a hybrid of i1 Match and Profile Maker using elements from the latest LED spectro technology. The libraries for example are from Profile Maker 6 if you look at the profiles created from APS.
The patches are actually in a folder in the the applications easy enough to find and examin.
Considering you can output these charts on any printer you like and read them into the Z nothing stops you from using the Z printers from serving as an iSiS/ProfileMaker combo.
Hence I still think APS is an incredible value.
I have always used the Tc9.18 charts, maybe I should use the more recent Bill's large patch charts, but not too sure if it is really necessary. I have requested HP to implement this, so we'll see what happens in future releases of APS. For the time being , and the current HP inkset the 918 charts are a good compromise.
Yes I often use the profiles created by APS to further tune in PM with drag and drop ease of use.
You can recreate the profiles for custom white points etc this way.
Use of small patch charts is only feasible on some devices. There is no way to generalise in this respect, and in many cases inksets aare not linear enough for this to work.
I think you'll want to use paper grey for Z profiles BTW, and try some profiles with F8 illum rather than D50 if you proof i light boxes....
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kers
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2007, 03:15:34 PM »
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1)
Does one need APS for quality prints? Not if one only uses HP papers. Since the printer can be calibrated to a known state (less than one delta E), the HP canned profiles (or other's custom profiles) should work fine.
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I see in the profiles that the canned profiles are made with 780 patches whereas the APS I believe uses over 1100 patches to make a profile-if I am correct.

will this make a lot of difference? would you say?

regards

Kers
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Pieter Kers
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neil snape
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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2007, 04:12:42 PM »
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I see in the profiles that the canned profiles are made with 780 patches whereas the APS I believe uses over 1100 patches to make a profile-if I am correct.

will this make a lot of difference? would you say?

regards

Kers
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I think there are 463 usable patches with Easy profiles and the max number of usable patches for rgb in APS is the Tc 9.18 chart which is in fact 918 patches outside of control bars. The Eci 2002 CMYK is more than 1100 though. The ECI chart is useful in doing delta E comparisons for contract proofing. The Tc9.18 charts are very useful for photo printing, or any high gamut printing. That's not to say a full CMYK profile is very capable of surpassing the offset press limited gamut.
I'm just working on the latest EFI EDE and I see that for the Z 3100 one can use N-device profiles .  It would be an interesting adventure to try some multi channel profiles through the rip.....
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rdonson
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2007, 05:58:46 PM »
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Yes I often use the profiles created by APS to further tune in PM with drag and drop ease of use.
You can recreate the profiles for custom white points etc this way.
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Neal, I took your advice and bought APS.  I'm currently running APS 1.3 and I'm very happy with the TC9.18 results.  For me its like having an i1 spectro and iO.  

I'm curious about what you're doing with PM on the profiles created from the TC9.18 targets.  Would you be willing to go into greater detail?
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2007, 01:00:21 AM »
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Neal, I took your advice and bought APS.  I'm currently running APS 1.3 and I'm very happy with the TC9.18 results.  For me its like having an i1 spectro and iO. 

I'm curious about what you're doing with PM on the profiles created from the TC9.18 targets.  Would you be willing to go into greater detail?
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Just drag and drop your profiles on ProfileMaker, and recreate the profiles from the measurement data to whatever standard you like. I almost always make one for Tungsten 3200 K, and or 2880 K for galleries. Also F8 illuminant works better for Vivera pigments for light box proofing for critical prepress evaluation. You can also change color mapping which is sometimes surprisingly different between Colorful (default of APS) and Chroma+. Those are just some of the things to be done in PM, yet I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these things included in future versions of APS.
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rdonson
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2007, 11:51:24 AM »
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Those are just some of the things to be done in PM, yet I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these things included in future versions of APS.
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Thanks, Neal.  I hope they do include this in future versions of APS.  In the meantime I'll probably go to my friend's place and use his copy of PM. I'm not in the position right now to shell out another $2K+ for PM.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
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