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Author Topic: Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???  (Read 20550 times)
PeterDendrinos
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« on: August 15, 2007, 06:34:59 AM »
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Has there been any credible word from hasselblad on a tilt or tilt/shift lens for the H series?

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michael
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 07:56:49 AM »
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Nothing official yet, but there's every indication that Hasselblad will have a T/S lens available in the near future.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it will be designed to ONLY be usable with an H3D, In other words, if you own and use an H1 or H2, and don't use a Hasselblad digital back, you're out of luck.

The reason for this is that the lens will reply on optical corrections done in software. That software will be built into their digital backs, rather than made available as part of their raw processing software.

One can ask oneself why Hasselblad has taken this route. If one were to be cynical it would be easy to assume that it is an attempt to force photographers to use Hasselblad backs rather than those from Leaf, Phase or Sinar. Because, if Hasselblad really wanted to serve the interests of their camera owners, past and future, they would make the lens work with all models of the H series cameras, and make the software component part of the raw processor, something like what DXO does.

Simple business logic then requires one to speculate will Hasselblad make more money providing a lens which can be used by all H series owners, or by making a desirable lens that forces users to buy their expensive (high margin) backs? The same goes for their 28mm ultra-wide lens, which only works on the H3D.

I suppose that Hasselblad's management thought that this was an approach that would yield strong sales among new H series buyers because a line of lenses that require the use of a Hasselblad back might force more back purchases. Existing H series owners moving to digital, likewise. Those that already have another brand of digital back; the hell with them. They're almost certainly lost as potential Hasselblad digital back owners anyhow.

But that was before the Hy6 camera and a resurgent Mamiya. Hasselblad is no longer the only game in town. I therefore believe that this might well prove to be a business decision that Hasselblad's management comes to regret.

Sorry to hijack your question with my little soapbox speech, but as a Hasselblad owner (two H bodies, 5 lenses and a non-Hasselblad digital back (and a film back), I am a stakeholder in the company, and am incensed by this flawed buiness strategy. I hope that exposing it to as many people as possible can do something to bring the company to its senses.

Michael
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MarkKay
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 12:04:44 PM »
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I support your logic and might add that I too am extremely disappointed in this decision if indeed this is what is going to happen.  I really would love to have T/S options for my MF setup and have been waiting to see what Hasselblad comes up with. At one point I thought i was going to be stuck when Hasselblad was the only player.  However, if Hasselblad does what you state below, I am going to reconsider my options at that time and re-evaluate the Hy6 and Mamiya options. The H1/2 system is fairly new and to basically abandon this line for those of us who made the investment -- in part due to stability, is really not a good business practice (at least in my mind)  in the long-term.

I am curious how other Hasselblad owners or folks considering making the move feel about this. Mark

Quote
Nothing official yet, but there's every indication that Hasselblad will have a T/S lens available in the near future.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it will be designed to ONLY be usable with an H3D, In other words, if you own and use an H1 or H2, and don't use a Hasselblad digital back, you're out of luck.

The reason for this is that the lens will reply on optical corrections done in software. That software will be built into their digital backs, rather than made available as part of their raw processing software.

One can ask oneself why Hasselblad has taken this route. If one were to be cynical it would be easy to assume that it is an attempt to force photographers to use Hasselblad backs rather than those from Leaf, Phase or Sinar. Because, if Hasselblad really wanted to serve the interests of their camera owners, past and future, they would make the lens work with all models of the H series cameras, and make the software component part of the raw processor, something like what DXO does.

Simple business logic then requires one to speculate will Hasselblad make more money providing a lens which can be used by all H series owners, or by making a desirable lens that forces users to buy their expensive (high margin) backs? The same goes for their 28mm ultra-wide lens, which only works on the H3D.

I suppose that Hasselblad's management thought that this was an approach that would yield strong sales among new H series buyers because a line of lenses that require the use of a Hasselblad back might force more back purchases. Existing H series owners moving to digital, likewise. Those that already have another brand of digital back; the hell with them. They're almost certainly lost as potential Hasselblad digital back owners anyhow.

But that was before the Hy6 camera and a resurgent Mamiya. Hasselblad is no longer the only game in town. I therefore believe that this might well prove to be a business decision that Hasselblad's management comes to regret.

Sorry to hijack your question with my little soapbox speech, but as a Hasselblad owner (two H bodies, 5 lenses and a non-Hasselblad digital back (and a film back), I am a stakeholder in the company, and am incensed by this flawed buiness strategy. I hope that exposing it to as many people as possible can do something to bring the company to its senses.

Michael
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 12:05:59 PM by MarkKay » Logged
BJNY
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 12:19:50 PM »
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IMO, What would be more useful is IF Hasselblad were to offer an H-series FlexBody usable with the entire range of HC lenses.  Unknown is what size image circles for coverage with movements applied.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 01:00:25 PM »
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Nothing official yet, but there's every indication that Hasselblad will have a T/S lens available in the near future.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it will be designed to ONLY be usable with an H3D, In other words, if you own and use an H1 or H2, and don't use a Hasselblad digital back, you're out of luck.

The reason for this is that the lens will reply on optical corrections done in software. That software will be built into their digital backs, rather than made available as part of their raw processing software.

One can ask oneself why Hasselblad has taken this route. If one were to be cynical it would be easy to assume that it is an attempt to force photographers to use Hasselblad backs rather than those from Leaf, Phase or Sinar. Because, if Hasselblad really wanted to serve the interests of their camera owners, past and future, they would make the lens work with all models of the H series cameras, and make the software component part of the raw processor, something like what DXO does.

Simple business logic then requires one to speculate will Hasselblad make more money providing a lens which can be used by all H series owners, or by making a desirable lens that forces users to buy their expensive (high margin) backs? The same goes for their 28mm ultra-wide lens, which only works on the H3D.

I suppose that Hasselblad's management thought that this was an approach that would yield strong sales among new H series buyers because a line of lenses that require the use of a Hasselblad back might force more back purchases. Existing H series owners moving to digital, likewise. Those that already have another brand of digital back; the hell with them. They're almost certainly lost as potential Hasselblad digital back owners anyhow.

But that was before the Hy6 camera and a resurgent Mamiya. Hasselblad is no longer the only game in town. I therefore believe that this might well prove to be a business decision that Hasselblad's management comes to regret.

Sorry to hijack your question with my little soapbox speech, but as a Hasselblad owner (two H bodies, 5 lenses and a non-Hasselblad digital back (and a film back), I am a stakeholder in the company, and am incensed by this flawed buiness strategy. I hope that exposing it to as many people as possible can do something to bring the company to its senses.

Michael
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You know I've often wondered why Hasselblad took the route they did with the 28mm. Does anyone know why they cannot correct the 28mm lens in the raw processor ? Am I right in thinking this lens will only work on the H3D because the lens will not transmit the data to another body, i.e. H2 ? It's pretty obvious now why this route was taken.

As Michael pointed out, there are and will soon be other alternatives to choose from. Upsetting loyal customers is not a sensible thing to do when there's competition around.

Barrie Watts
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Dustbak
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 01:06:44 PM »
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IMO, What would be more useful is IF Hasselblad were to offer an H-series FlexBody usable with the entire range of HC lenses. Unknown is what size image circles for coverage with movements applied.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now that would be really nice. It should not be too difficult to rebuild the Flexbody towards H and HC. I would definitely be swapping my V-CF Flexbody. I just wish they would check out the 'Bendyblad' design and implement it that way.

On the part of the image corrections, I agree that it would be much more sensible to integrate the lens corrections of the new lenses in a separate plug-in or develop a SDK for parties like Iridient and Adobe.

It will bring back a lot of goodwill towards Hasselblad and probably add more sales of the 28 and possible T&S (or other software corrected lenses). On the part of digital back sales, my guess is it will make no difference. I doubt they sell more digital backs because of the corrections but I am sure they sell less 28mm's because of it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 01:21:50 PM by Dustbak » Logged
pixelpro
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 02:32:15 PM »
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The Hassy tilt/shift is already out, I had a demo and this was part of the interesting and new innovations wriiten into the software.
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MarkKay
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 03:03:50 PM »
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Can you elaborate on what was out?  Focal range?  I assume the innovations in the software were related to the H3D closed system and not the after image processing software?

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The Hassy tilt/shift is already out, I had a demo and this was part of the interesting and new innovations wriiten into the software.
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hcubell
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 04:00:39 PM »
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As Michael pointed out, there are and will soon be other alternatives to choose from. Upsetting loyal customers is not a sensible thing to do when there's competition around.

Barrie Watts
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Whether Hasselblad's decision to make the H3D series of cameras a "closed system" with the 28mm lens and presumably the forthcoming T/S lens(es)  is wise or foolish is not one that any of us can effectively judge.  The wisdom of that decision will be rendered in the marketplace by people voting with their wallets. None of us is privy to that type of sales information. It is entirely possible that Hasselblad is selling 2x or 3x or 4x more digital backs now than last year, and whatever it might be losing in camera and lens sales is more than made up by the profits from the digital back sales. Moreover, this is not a business decision that can be evaluated in the short term. Over the past 12 months, there has been a convergence in the quality of the digital backs and the raw processing software that is used with them(ACR and Lightroom). This is accelerating. Each back has its slight advantages and foibles, but they are all amazing tools. If Hasselblad can leverage a unique lens offering(e.g., a T/S) to "force" you to buy its back and camera if you want to use that lens, I can understand why it would. (It's not personal, Michael, it's strictly business.)
As for brand "loyalty", come on. We are talking about tools here, not spouses. If you can get a better tool, you do it. Anyone who goes out and buys a Hy6 and a full complement of lenses because he is "mad" at Hasselblad is out of his mind. He may buy the Hy6, but I hope it is because he is satisfied after careful research that the Hy6 is a better tool for his specific needs all things considered(including software, warranty and service).
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pixjohn
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 04:16:04 PM »
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I was ready to buy an H body for my aptus 75 and put it hold to test the Hy6. If everything is equal I will skip Hasselblad because of the closed system.  

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Hy6 and a full complement of lenses because he is "mad" at Hasselblad is out of his mind. He may buy the Hy6, but I hope it is because he is satisfied after careful research that the Hy6 is a better tool for his specific needs all things considered(including software, warranty and service).
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 04:30:12 PM »
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quoted to wrong poster... will re-post
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 06:07:20 AM by rsmphoto » Logged
bwpuk
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 04:50:38 PM »
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Whether Hasselblad's decision to make the H3D series of cameras a "closed system" with the 28mm lens and presumably the forthcoming T/S lens(es)  is wise or foolish is not one that any of us can effectively judge.  The wisdom of that decision will be rendered in the marketplace by people voting with their wallets. None of us is privy to that type of sales information. It is entirely possible that Hasselblad is selling 2x or 3x or 4x more digital backs now than last year, and whatever it might be losing in camera and lens sales is more than made up by the profits from the digital back sales. Moreover, this is not a business decision that can be evaluated in the short term. Over the past 12 months, there has been a convergence in the quality of the digital backs and the raw processing software that is used with them(ACR and Lightroom). This is accelerating. Each back has its slight advantages and foibles, but they are all amazing tools. If Hasselblad can leverage a unique lens offering(e.g., a T/S) to "force" you to buy its back and camera if you want to use that lens, I can understand why it would. (It's not personal, Michael, it's strictly business.)
As for brand "loyalty", come on. We are talking about tools here, not spouses. If you can get a better tool, you do it. Anyone who goes out and buys a Hy6 and a full complement of lenses because he is "mad" at Hasselblad is out of his mind. He may buy the Hy6, but I hope it is because he is satisfied after careful research that the Hy6 is a better tool for his specific needs all things considered(including software, warranty and service).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course Hasselblad have every right to make whatever product they want and market how they see fit to suit their own business model. I've personally been using their equipment to earn a living with for the last twenty five years and have invested a great deal of money in their products over this period. It's just that I don't like being manipulated into buying something because of their marketing strategy. I mean 'Full Frame' and 'DAC' come on, it might impress some people but not me.  I bet Victor Hasselblad is turning in his grave. Some of my Hasselblad gear is over forty years old and still working fine, and is made of metal too.

Hasselblad or whoever owns them these days have got a business to run and have every right to do it their way. On the other hand I've got every right to buy the equipment that feels right for my needs.  As long as we've all got a choice that's all that matters.

Photography for me is more than just a business, the equipment more than just tools.

My own two cents of course.
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hcubell
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2007, 05:02:37 PM »
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I was ready to buy an H body for my aptus 75 and put it hold to test the Hy6. If everything is equal I will skip Hasselblad because of the closed system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not sure I follow the logic of rejecting the H system as a "closed" system so that you can buy into another closed system, the Hy6. Nonetheless, if you don't need a wide angle lens, the Hy6 may be a fine choice.
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hcubell
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2007, 05:16:25 PM »
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Of course Hasselblad have every right to make whatever product they want and  I mean 'Full Frame' and 'DAC' come on, it might impress some people but not me.  I bet Victor Hasselblad is turning in his grave.
My own two cents of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Have you tried DAC with the H3D and the 28mm lens? Did you compare it to the Mamiya 28mm lens with no DAC?
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bwpuk
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 05:31:01 PM »
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Have you tried DAC with the H3D and the 28mm lens? Did you compare it to the Mamiya 28mm lens with no DAC?
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No I haven't. Thankfully for the sort of work I do I don't need to!  I don't use Mamiya either. But DAC isn't anything new is it.?  I've been using DxO for my Nikon lenses for some time, and it would seem to me to do the same sort of thing. Although I stand to be corrected on this assumption. If Mamiya got DxO to plot their 28mm and support it I'm sure it could be as impressive as the Hasselblad version.
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David WM
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 06:02:08 PM »
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I think one of the reasons is that you have a more finished image coming from the camera with less demanding processing, letting photographers be photographers not computer operators. And maybe its part a marketing issue as they don't want the world seeing uncorrected images on a regular basis and that leading to criticism of the brand.
As for me the new system is unsuitable as I  need a back to use on other cameras anyway. Being invested in the H system, changing brands is a big decision which I would be unlikely to make without a good financial reason, especially at the same time as I update the DB, which is a finance stretching event without contemplating a complete outfit change.
David

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You know I've often wondered why Hasselblad took the route they did with the 28mm. Does anyone know why they cannot correct the 28mm lens in the raw processor ? Am I right in thinking this lens will only work on the H3D because the lens will not transmit the data to another body, i.e. H2 ? It's pretty obvious now why this route was taken.

As Michael pointed out, there are and will soon be other alternatives to choose from. Upsetting loyal customers is not a sensible thing to do when there's competition around.

Barrie Watts
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hcubell
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2007, 09:28:05 PM »
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No I haven't. Thankfully for the sort of work I do I don't need to! [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Then, why did you make an accusation that was not founded on anything other than a personal agenda? How do you think Victor Hasselblad would feel about THAT?
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psp
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2007, 09:57:03 PM »
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Nothing official yet, but there's every indication that Hasselblad will have a T/S lens available in the near future.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it will be designed to ONLY be usable with an H3D, In other words, if you own and use an H1 or H2, and don't use a Hasselblad digital back, you're out of luck.

The reason for this is that the lens will reply on optical corrections done in software. That software will be built into their digital backs, rather than made available as part of their raw processing software.

One can ask oneself why Hasselblad has taken this route. If one were to be cynical it would be easy to assume that it is an attempt to force photographers to use Hasselblad backs rather than those from Leaf, Phase or Sinar. Because, if Hasselblad really wanted to serve the interests of their camera owners, past and future, they would make the lens work with all models of the H series cameras, and make the software component part of the raw processor, something like what DXO does.

Simple business logic then requires one to speculate will Hasselblad make more money providing a lens which can be used by all H series owners, or by making a desirable lens that forces users to buy their expensive (high margin) backs? The same goes for their 28mm ultra-wide lens, which only works on the H3D.

I suppose that Hasselblad's management thought that this was an approach that would yield strong sales among new H series buyers because a line of lenses that require the use of a Hasselblad back might force more back purchases. Existing H series owners moving to digital, likewise. Those that already have another brand of digital back; the hell with them. They're almost certainly lost as potential Hasselblad digital back owners anyhow.

But that was before the Hy6 camera and a resurgent Mamiya. Hasselblad is no longer the only game in town. I therefore believe that this might well prove to be a business decision that Hasselblad's management comes to regret.

Sorry to hijack your question with my little soapbox speech, but as a Hasselblad owner (two H bodies, 5 lenses and a non-Hasselblad digital back (and a film back), I am a stakeholder in the company, and am incensed by this flawed buiness strategy. I hope that exposing it to as many people as possible can do something to bring the company to its senses.

Michael
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Michael,

Come on Michael... give it a rest already. Closed system? You can still acquire 6 types of Hasselblad backs for use on many medium and view cameras. How is that closed? The 28mm lens is presently proprietary to the H3D. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that Hasselblad is now a closed system because of one lens. You really need that lens? Then buy it and the camera that works with it.

If you were a little less critical of Hasselblad (still trying to figure out your MO on this one) you might be privy to information concerning the the status of the tilt/shift lens. But publicly bashing any company won't make you and friends there.

And as a bitter and unhappy stake-holder, why not demonstrate your displeasure and divest of your Hasselblad holdings? That should really 'teach' Hasselblad, eh?!

Alternatively, you can put your bitterness aside and buy the 28mm and the HD3 and get on with it. Because quite frankly, being bitter and trying to tell anyone how to run their business is in no one's best interest.

Of course, just my opinion.....
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eronald
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2007, 01:19:18 AM »
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Hasselbald wishes to capture the back buyers from Phase and Leaf and lock them into a Hassleblad upgrade cycle which would yield $10K per user every two years like the Canon upgrade cycle for the 1Ds.

Is this good ? Is it bad ? The company will get more solid, yielding more flexible pricing and more lenses and accessories.  It has advantages for the dealer network, and so users will be able to get on with their jobs with more solid support. Photographers gain peace of mind about where their next piece of kit comes from. There will be a thriving used market with obsolete models.

On the other hand, this is just a commercial strategy and so the squeeze on the current owners (eg. Michael) by denying them access to  new lenses is no fun and not really technically grounded. A strong financial incentive would have done the job equally well, and maybe avoided bitterness from the existing userbase.

Edmund
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pixjohn
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2007, 01:41:39 AM »
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PSP = 1 post with no info about him? Makes you wonder what kind of job he has during the day?

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Michael,

Come on Michael... give it a rest already. Closed system?
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 01:42:31 AM by pixjohn » Logged
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