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Author Topic: Hassie Tile/Shift Lens Talk???  (Read 20542 times)
MarkKay
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2007, 01:46:12 AM »
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Well the difference between the fact that Canon upgrades its high end models every couple of years is different compared to the  Hasselblad strategy. Unlike Hasselblad, Canon's new lenses (with the exception of the EF-S)  are compatible with all of their SLR (EOS-EF mount) cameras regardless of if it is the 1D, IDII, IDs, IDsII, IDIIN, IDIII, D30, D60,10D-30D, digital rebel series, and even their film cameras.    I would have no issue if Hasselblad upgraded their backs every 2 years based on improved technology.

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Hasselbald wishes to capture the back buyers from Phase and Leaf and lock them into a Hassleblad upgrade cycle which would yield $10K per user every two years like the Canon upgrade cycle for the 1Ds.

Is this good ? Is it bad ? The company will get more solid, yielding more flexible pricing and more lenses and accessories.  It has advantages for the dealer network, and so users will be able to get on with their jobs with more solid support. Photographers gain peace of mind about where their next piece of kit comes from. There will be a thriving used market with obsolete models.

On the other hand, this is just a commercial strategy and so the squeeze on the current owners (eg. Michael) by denying them access to  new lenses is no fun and not really technically grounded. A strong financial incentive would have done the job equally well, and maybe avoided bitterness from the existing userbase.

Edmund
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bwpuk
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2007, 02:15:38 AM »
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Then, why did you make an accusation that was not founded on anything other than a personal agenda? How do you think Victor Hasselblad would feel about THAT?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Wow, don't some people get touchy over somebody expressing a personal point of view! I don't have an 'agenda' of any kind I can assure you. Just a personal point of view, and this is a forum where people can air them.

I've never criticised anybody for using any item of equipment if it suits their needs. It's their money and they spend it on what they want. I know the new 28mm lens is great because I've seen it in action. I just don't believe much of the marketing bull that we are fed these days.
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eronald
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2007, 02:15:50 AM »
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Yes, this is exactly the difference between H and C.

Canon sells the new model camera based on its increased capabilities compared to the old one.

On the other hand Hassleblad is selling $5K bodies and $3K lenses, while Phase and Leaf are selling $20K backs for those Hasselblad bodies and lenses, so a feeling of jealousy and greed is understandable

The right way for H to do it would be to provide a better back and financial incentives to move to an H back (eg. competitive upgrades). But they still cannot make much better backs than Leaf or Phase (in fact some would say they're less good, which is why photographers are using Leaf and Phase). And they cannot provide the financial incentives because they don't have the necessary cash flow.

All these problems will go away when Fuji finally buys out Shiro. At that point they will have access to much greater technical and financial resources, and proprietary sensor design and fabrication.

Edmund


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Well the difference between the fact that Canon upgrades its high end models every couple of years is different compared to the  Hasselblad strategy. Unlike Hasselblad, Canon's new lenses (with the exception of the EF-S)  are compatible with all of their SLR (EOS-EF mount) cameras regardless of if it is the 1D, IDII, IDs, IDsII, IDIIN, IDIII, D30, D60,10D-30D, digital rebel series, and even their film cameras.    I would have no issue if Hasselblad upgraded their backs every 2 years based on improved technology.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 02:17:56 AM by eronald » Logged
michael
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2007, 05:38:45 AM »
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Michael,

Come on Michael... give it a rest already. Closed system? You can still acquire 6 types of Hasselblad backs for use on many medium and view cameras. How is that closed? The 28mm lens is presently proprietary to the H3D. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that Hasselblad is now a closed system because of one lens. You really need that lens? Then buy it and the camera that works with it.

If you were a little less critical of Hasselblad (still trying to figure out your MO on this one) you might be privy to information concerning the the status of the tilt/shift lens. But publicly bashing any company won't make you and friends there.

And as a bitter and unhappy stake-holder, why not demonstrate your displeasure and divest of your Hasselblad holdings? That should really 'teach' Hasselblad, eh?!

Alternatively, you can put your bitterness aside and buy the 28mm and the HD3 and get on with it. Because quite frankly, being bitter and trying to tell anyone how to run their business is in no one's best interest.

Of course, just my opinion.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have no intention of "giving it a rest". I have no idea of who you are or what your agenda is, but I can tell you that I am not alone in my displeasure with Hasselblad's flawed new marketing approach.

As I wrote, with two H bodies and five lenses, and a $30,000 investment in an MF back in H mount, I am a stakeholder in the company. When that company does something which is against my interests I have every right to be pissed, especially when it is done not for technical reasons, but simply as a means of potentially boosting revenue at the expense of its installed customer base.

I will be pleased to debate Christian Poulsen on this matter publicly, and I offer him an open platform here to discuss his business strategy and help convince us that it is correct. I have a soapbox here, and don't hesitate to use it on issues which I regard as important, but I'll gladly share it in any way that he deems appropriate.

As for the rest of your argument, there's little by way of fact, only posturing. It's not just one lens, it's now two, and Poulsen has made it clear publicly (I was at the Photokina press conference and also interviewed him privately afterward) that building lenses with software control required in the back was the company's future direction.

Poulsen may see this approach, which includes not allowing any other backs to interface with new H series cameras, to be one which will maximize Hasselblad's margins, because clearly high margins are in the backs, not bodies and lenses (otherwise the company wouldn't have such a huge debt load). But, I maintain that it's a flawed strategy likely to disaffect a loyal user base built up over nearly sixty years. I've been using Hasselblads both professionally and personally for more than half that time, and I can tell you that I have never seen a user community as pissed off with a company as I do now with Hasselblad. And pissed off customers are definitely not good for business.

A closing thought. Hasselblad's situation is not analogous that of a Nikon or Canon. Hasselblad sells its products to an extremely small segment of the photographic market. This consists of a few tens of thousands of professional photographers around the world, and an even smaller number of well-heeled amateurs. The dealer network is tiny, and via the Internet and a handful of professional journals this small community is kept abreast of developments of interest. Punters may read the reviews superficially, but anyone spending north of $50,000 for a body, back and lenses tends to do their research, speak with their peers, and make an informed, well-researched decision. Their accountants won't let them do anything less.

That being the case, I am trying to do what I can to help people (such as the original poster in this thread) appreciate the pros and cons of Hasselblad's current business and marketing strategy at least as I see it. People are then free to make their own decisions. But when a company spouts nonsense like their "Full Frame" campaign, and cynically freeze their installed user base out of new product offerings, someone has to stand up and say that the emperor isn't very completely dressed today.

Michael

Ps: If you think that I will keep my mouth shut for the privilege of an early review of a lens, you obviously don't know anything about me.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2007, 05:52:56 AM »
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IMO the bad thing blad did was move the goalposts.

When I bought My H body and eyelike back - the whole system worked with that back

There was no hint of change - blad even waffled on their site about the whole 40 year system being compatible with the lense coulper thingy

They played on the safety of the investment

Then the position was moved so now I have two choices if I want to run a full system

Change system or change back.

No other manufactuer has ever done this to its client base as far as I am aware

No one ever thought a nikon lens would work on a canon etc (it does!)

For me however an incomplete H system is still the best system available.

It will become extra frustratin if a T>S lens is released - but the money in the back will not persuade me to change unless Blad offered an AMAZING trade in

IF another manufactuer brings out a decent system with Mams lens range (incliding a mover) , Hs brightnes and flash synch and multipoint AF I will drop blad as soon as I can afford to

The HY6 is a new system but fails on most counts in terms of what is missing from the blad semi system

S
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 05:55:40 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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josayeruk
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2007, 06:07:44 AM »
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especially when it is done not for technical reasons, but simply as a means of potentially boosting revenue at the expense of its installed customer base.

(otherwise the company wouldn't have such a huge debt load).

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At the risk of being flamed as usual...


I disagree with the first statement and I think other H2/3D users will as well.

If it is purely done to boost revenue then I am clearly stupid for buying into this system - is that what you are saying?

The integration and 'locked' nature of my H2D has provided a tighter camera with useful additions like the DAC (which is totally different to DXO, period) and simple benefits like having one set of batteries and chargers.  I could go on... but all of us H users have repeated the benefits many times over.

The Hy6 is pretty much as closed as the best deals are going to be found with the Leaf AFi or a Hy6 with Sinar back.  So changing from Sinar to Leaf on a Hy6 platform will be more costly than staying with the back (Sinar or Leaf) of your choice.

Plus the comment of Hasselblad having a huge debt load keeps popping up and is based on what???  There is no evidence I can find googling the net and one of H's dealers (pprhendrix I think) also strongly disagrees with you on this statement.  If you have evidence then please show it, as I would like to see it as I am too a 'stakeholder'   in the company.

I must be a stakeholder in lots of companies.  Lucky me!  Ill start asking them for dividend payments.    

Jo S.x
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2007, 06:08:34 AM »
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The Hassy tilt/shift is already out, I had a demo and this was part of the interesting and new innovations wriiten into the software.
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Could you elaborate as to details on this lens and the demo, please....?
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josayeruk
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2007, 06:09:54 AM »
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Could you elaborate as to details on this lens and the demo, please....?
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Yes please!!  I haven't seen news of one anywhere?Huh
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2007, 06:31:53 AM »
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I have no intention of "giving it a rest". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think this is all getting to be a bit tiresome and seems only to serve in getting peoples hackles up. This debate has been rehashed up, down, left, right, -  since the H3D and 28 were introduced. All the points have been made over and over, ad nauseum. Each camp has it's valid points - each it's very definite biases. We're talking about tools here and we each make our own decision as to which to use regardless of what's said here, I suspect. There's really nothing new here in this thread that I haven't read in previous discussion except that NOW there may be a new T/S lens. That in itself IS worth discussion (wasn't that the original poster's request?) - personally I'm ecstatic that someone, anyone, has actually invested the time and money to bring one to market. So, shall we all agree to disagree and move on?

Richard
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josayeruk
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2007, 06:35:19 AM »
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That in itself IS worth discussion (wasn't that the original poster's request?) - personally I'm ecstatic that someone, anyone, has actually invested the time and money to bring one to market. So, shall we all agree to disagree and move on?

Richard
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Yes!
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2007, 06:45:45 AM »
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The integration and 'locked' nature of my H2D has provided a tighter camera with useful additions like the DAC [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont see why these great things are connected to locking the system

A Nikon TTL flash  may work better than a vivitar but a vivitar still works on a nikon

Nikon sell more flashes becuase it offers a better product than vivitar

BLad should sell more back than phase on simlar grounds

Of course they are free to do as they please

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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psp
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 07:21:24 AM »
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PSP = 1 post with no info about him? Makes you wonder what kind of job he has during the day?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wonder no more John....

[a href=\"http://peterschafrick.com/]http://peterschafrick.com/[/url]

Anything else I can help you out with today John?
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godtfred
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2007, 07:35:45 AM »
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Wonder no more John....

http://peterschafrick.com/

Anything else I can help you out with today John?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Threadjack:

On another note Peter, your photography of liquids is in a league of its own, you are truly a master of your art. Thanks for sharing your website with us.

-Axel Bauer
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 07:42:53 AM by godtfred » Logged

Axel Bauer
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michael
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2007, 08:22:56 AM »
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At the risk of being flamed as usual...
I disagree with the first statement and I think other H2/3D users will as well.

If it is purely done to boost revenue then I am clearly stupid for buying into this system - is that what you are saying?

The integration and 'locked' nature of my H2D has provided a tighter camera with useful additions like the DAC (which is totally different to DXO, period) and simple benefits like having one set of batteries and chargers.  I could go on... but all of us H users have repeated the benefits many times over.

The Hy6 is pretty much as closed as the best deals are going to be found with the Leaf AFi or a Hy6 with Sinar back.  So changing from Sinar to Leaf on a Hy6 platform will be more costly than staying with the back (Sinar or Leaf) of your choice.

Plus the comment of Hasselblad having a huge debt load keeps popping up and is based on what???  There is no evidence I can find googling the net and one of H's dealers (pprhendrix I think) also strongly disagrees with you on this statement.  If you have evidence then please show it, as I would like to see it as I am too a 'stakeholder'   in the company.

I must be a stakeholder in lots of companies.  Lucky me!  Ill start asking them for dividend payments.   

Jo S.x
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No flaming, just, hopefully, reasoned discussion. Addressing your points....

The only substantive difference between between what DAC does and what DxO does is that DxO does it go correct residual optical defects in lenses. DAC is intended to correct optical deficiencies that were intentionally left in the lens so as to reduce manufacturing and design costs. Source publicly made statements by Hasselblad at Photokina.

Your statement that "changing from Sinar to Leaf on a Hy6 platform will be more costly than staying with the back (Sinar or Leaf) of your choice" is factually incorrect. A Hy6 body will not cost $30,000. And, unlike in the Hasselblad situation, Hy6 prisms, lenses, and accessories will not be rendered unusable if one changes between Leaf and Sinar backs (or possibly others as yet unannounced).

Hasselblad is a private company (owned by Shiro Group) and thus their finances are not public. But, from a press presentation made by Poulsen at Photokina it was clear that though things seem to be improving, there is still substantial headway to be made to turn Hasselblad around financially.

I get your jibe about "stakeholder", but possibly you are unaware of the usage of the term in financial circles. It refers to those that who, though not shareholders, have a stake in the success or failure of the company. This includes company workers as well as those with a strong vested interest in the company's products.

I'll also take the opportunity to address the point made by another poster that this issue has been rehashed many times.  I've hardly mentioned it once since reporting on it nearly a year ago, after Photokina. But it does come up whenever new lenses are discussed, and that was the case when someone posted a question about the new T/S lens, which started this thread.

It seems to me fair game to bring to the attention of anyone interested in this new lens that only those with an H3D will be able to use it, and that the tens of thousands of photographers with H1 and H2 Hasselblad have been frozen out, unless, of course, they decide to sell their Phase, Leaf or Sinar backs and purchase a new body and back from Hasselblad.

Not a closed system huh?
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psp
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2007, 08:36:06 AM »
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PSP = 1 post with no info about him? Makes you wonder what kind of job he has during the day?
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John,

Wonder no more... my day job:
[a href=\"http://www.peterschafrick.com/]http://www.peterschafrick.com/[/url]

Anything else I can help you out with today?


Best.


Peter.
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BJNY
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2007, 08:57:42 AM »
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Yes, please help us with information of Hasselblad's tilt/shift solution.  Thank you.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2007, 11:45:23 AM »
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Yes, please help us with information of Hasselblad's tilt/shift solution.  Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not on this foum I won't.

What I will say is that I don't believe there is the perfect camera. Presently, if you need movements on medium formant, you need a view camera. If you need the H 28mm lens, then make the investment.

Hasselblad has decided to offer some pretty neat fatures with the incorporation of camera and back... and I'm sure more will follow.... how they do it and the decisions they make are entirely up to them.

It's quite laughable that Michael wants to debate Poulsen... debate what? If Michael wants so desperately to use the 28mm lens, then he should get the H3D. Simple really. He went from the Contax 645 to the H series. So what's so wrong with having an H3D in his camara bag?
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hcubell
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2007, 11:54:09 AM »
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It seems to me fair game to bring to the attention of anyone interested in this new lens that only those with an H3D will be able to use it, and that the tens of thousands of photographers with H1 and H2 Hasselblad have been frozen out, unless, of course, they decide to sell their Phase, Leaf or Sinar backs and purchase a new body and back from Hasselblad.

Not a closed system huh?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you could approach this with an open mind at this point(sure!), I think you would find that you actually have an excellent option.  If the new 28mm lens and T/S lens are really that critical to your style of shooting, why not consider selling your P45+ and trading in your H2 body for an H3D. You might actually make money in the process. I firmly believe that you would find that the H3D-39 produces digital files that are the equal of the P45+. There are many who have done the comparison and reached that conclusion.
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pixjohn
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2007, 12:43:27 PM »
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This LINK (PDN) is a good example why I would not consider shooting Hasselblad at this time. I still have issue's with my Leaf aptus, but I can make it work in the long run. Until Hasselblad can fix the issues I would not even consider them. I shoot both architecture and people and need one back to handle both.

P.S. Thanks PSP for the link.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 12:44:11 PM by pixjohn » Logged
psp
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 01:03:07 PM »
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This LINK (PDN) is a good example why I would not consider shooting Hasselblad at this time. I still have issue's with my Leaf aptus, but I can make it work in the long run. Until Hasselblad can fix the issues I would not even consider them. I shoot both architecture and people and need one back to handle both.

P.S. Thanks PSP for the link.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=133661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh please don't bring that guy into this... there's nothg wrong or needs to be fixed with Hassleblad backs or lenses. I've heard his story and also heard Hasselblad's end of it as well. Until you hear both sides, please don't base your decision on one's persons bitterness.....

Respectfully,


P.
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