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Author Topic: z3100ps software update in mid-Sept  (Read 18767 times)
thierryd
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 07:19:14 AM »
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Does someone know why do they call it "Litho-Realistic paper" ? It looks like something very specific. A bit frightening for someone who doesn't speak a good english.
And not so easy to find at least here in France.
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deelight
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 08:06:13 AM »
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Clem,

I finally got back to my invoice and the APS cost me $732.43.  Not a huge savings but enough to pay for a 24" roll of HP Matte Litho-Realistic.   

Speaking of the Litho-Realistic, my roll came yesterday and I bit the bullet and profiled it with APS 1.3.1 using a TC9.18 target.  My initial impressions are that its significantly heavier (13 mil vs 10.3 mil) than Epson Enhanced Matte and that the reds are excellent.  It seems to handle a lot of ink.  Detail seems quite good.  For those who hate OBAs it is noticeably less bright than Enhanced Matte.

I think I'm really going to like the Litho-Realistic paper a lot and I'll probably not order any more Epson Enhanced Matte to use on the Z3100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you for this information. In Germany the price is 760 Euro excl. VAT.

I find it very interesting, that you do not have problems with the reds. With my red ink I am still on the 60ml ink cartridge, maybe I should change? I was one of the first in Germany to buy the Z3100 (Dez. 2006), maybe there has changed something. That possible?

What is the difference between the PS and the non-PS Version?

I read that with the next firmware upgrade Version 6 these PS and non-PS will become the same (PS)? Anybody to confirm this?

Thanks,

Clem
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rdonson
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 08:24:46 AM »
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Thank you for this information. In Germany the price is 760 Euro excl. VAT.

I find it very interesting, that you do not have problems with the reds. With my red ink I am still on the 60ml ink cartridge, maybe I should change? I was one of the first in Germany to buy the Z3100 (Dez. 2006), maybe there has changed something. That possible?

What is the difference between the PS and the non-PS Version?

I read that with the next firmware upgrade Version 6 these PS and non-PS will become the same (PS)? Anybody to confirm this?

Thanks,

Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil Snape provided a good synopis on PS vs. non-PS in another thread.

Reds were initially disappointing on a wider range of media than today.  On my Z3100 there were firmware changes that made a significant difference in the reds.  Are you up to date with the firmware and drivers?  

Today the reds may not be perfect in all circumstances but my only challenges have been on papers that may not have coatings optimized for the Vivera inks and when I don't select the right paper type for the 3rd party papers when profiling.  There is some experimentation required to select the paper type that produces the best results on non-HP paper.  Some papers may never perform well on the Z.

Others may have more critical color requirements in their prints than I do.  Generally speaking I'm happy with the reds I get now.  I'm learning to stay away from some papers to get the results I want.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
deelight
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 08:56:35 AM »
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Neil Snape provided a good synopis on PS vs. non-PS in another thread.

Reds were initially disappointing on a wider range of media than today. On my Z3100 there were firmware changes that made a significant difference in the reds. Are you up to date with the firmware and drivers?

Today the reds may not be perfect in all circumstances but my only challenges have been on papers that may not have coatings optimized for the Vivera inks and when I don't select the right paper type for the 3rd party papers when profiling. There is some experimentation required to select the paper type that produces the best results on non-HP paper. Some papers may never perform well on the Z.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did not get the latest firmware update as it were only improvements stated by HP that were not important for me. I am on driver version 5.0.2 and firmware version 5.0.0.4 Nevertheless I am waiting for the new Version 6 and I will install it. Maybe they did improvements on the reds in the latest Version 5 but did not say?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 08:57:16 AM by deelight » Logged

rdonson
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 09:23:15 AM »
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I did not get the latest firmware update as it were only improvements stated by HP that were not important for me. I am on driver version 5.0.2 and firmware version 5.0.0.4 Nevertheless I am waiting for the new Version 6 and I will install it. Maybe they did improvements on the reds in the latest Version 5 but did not say?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148580\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Firmware 5.0.0.4 was the key for me so you're already there.

What problems are you seeing with reds?  I may not be as critical as you in my printing.   For my work, the reds are acceptable on the papers I've chosen.  Even mattes.  The exception is Epson Enhanced Matte which I think I can improve by chosing a different paper type.   It may never equal the reds acheived on that paper with the Epson ink sets.  Neil Snape has provided better comments on reds in another thread.

The next firmware may improve things by allowing us to lay down more or less ink without resorting to testing a lot of different paper types to get acceptable results.  We'll find out more when the new firmware arrives.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
deelight
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2007, 10:00:43 AM »
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Firmware 5.0.0.4 was the key for me so you're already there.

What problems are you seeing with reds? I may not be as critical as you in my printing. For my work, the reds are acceptable on the papers I've chosen. Even mattes. The exception is Epson Enhanced Matte which I think I can improve by chosing a different paper type. It may never equal the reds acheived on that paper with the Epson ink sets. Neil Snape has provided better comments on reds in another thread.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I attached 2 pictures with this post, I hope it works.

For the record: I am on MAC OSX and print from PSCS3.

One ist the original (sundried peppers) and the other is a shot of the print (due to open aperture not totally in focus!).

Dark reds in the print are muddy and not as contrasty as the file and in certain areas became more kind of green/yellow and the worst are highlights that turn into pink in an abrupt step.

See yourself. Although I want to state, that this does not occur on all pictures with red, only with certain red tones. I also have pictures where red is no problem.

Could also be a profile mistake, but I calibrated everything properly, I am professional photographer and know what I am doing (at least mostly ;-)

Other question: will the APS software work with an basic color squid 2 (which is in fact an Gretag EyeOne2)?  Is it possible to get the APS software seperately?

Thanks,

Clem
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:18:10 AM by deelight » Logged

rdonson
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2007, 10:18:00 AM »
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Wow, that's a pretty dramatic difference, Clem.  I would be upset as well if I saw that kind of result.  I don't doubt your abilities.  Was this print on the Matte Litho-Realistic?  What are you doing with regards to soft-proofing?  I find I have to tweak all matte papers in either Photoshop or Qimage to get good results.

APS is available as a separate purchase.  As best I can tell it works only with the spectro built into the Z.  Its incredibly easy to use as a result.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
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deelight
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2007, 10:22:57 AM »
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Wow, that's a pretty dramatic difference, Clem. I would be upset as well if I saw that kind of result. I don't doubt your abilities. Was this print on the Matte Litho-Realistic? What are you doing with regards to soft-proofing? I find I have to tweak all matte papers in either Photoshop or Qimage to get good results.

APS is available as a separate purchase. As best I can tell it works only with the spectro built into the Z. Its incredibly easy to use as a result.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


But the APS is a package and the I1D2 is included, isnt it? So I only would need the software, and could save the money for a second I1D2...

Please note: I did a shot of the print under low light, so please dont judge the blacks, only how the different reds correspond to each other on the print vs. on the file. Thanks.

It is on Litho-Matte. When I look at the preview the reds are okay, although the whole print seems to be a little too saturated but it wont come out oversaturated.

From which program do you print? On which platform?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:27:19 AM by deelight » Logged

rdonson
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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2007, 10:29:23 AM »
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But the APS is a package and the I1D2 is included, isnt it? So I only would need the software, and could save the money for a second I1D2...

It is on Litho-Matte. When I look at the preview the reds are okay, although the whole print seems to be a little too saturated but it wont come out oversaturated.

From which program do you print? On which platform?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148604\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


There's no way to acquire APS without getting another I1D2.  I wish I could.  I feel like a hockey player with all the pucks I've managed to acquire over the last few years.

Almost all of my printing is through Qimage on Windows.  I do occasionally print from Photoshop CS3.  

When time permits I'll experiment further with the Litho-Matte and provide a before/after image like you have.  I've not experienced a dramatic difference in the reds yet like you show.  Then again, I've got one whole day of experience with the paper so far.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
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neil snape
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« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2007, 10:29:49 AM »
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Here's a general outlook from soft proofing relative with BPC, and white and black of paper on as the jpg header shows, Epson 4800 PR308, HP FA smooth Easy, HP FA smooth, APS, Canon 5000 PR308.
I also did a check for monitor out of gamut and you certainly have some in the peppers in the regions that are going greenish on the print.
I have to say there is a pinkish cast in the white wall but I don't know exactly what you are seeing as pink without having the print in front of me.
For me the clear winner is the Canon as expected as it is highly saturated reds in the above L40, next to that I prefer the Z with the APS.
What I cannot fathom is the need for these rich reds that lend themselves to a photo paper over matte. This very image on Satin would be a perfect fit. To each his own....
Hmm forgot the image
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:34:40 AM by neil snape » Logged
rdonson
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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2007, 10:44:35 AM »
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Good point, Neil.  When I have an image where reds are critical its generally one I'm going to print on a satin or gloss with a great gamut.
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deelight
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2007, 10:51:33 AM »
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Here's a general outlook from soft proofing relative with BPC, and white and black of paper on as the jpg header shows, Epson 4800 PR308, HP FA smooth Easy, HP FA smooth, APS, Canon 5000 PR308.
I also did a check for monitor out of gamut and you certainly have some in the peppers in the regions that are going greenish on the print.
I have to say there is a pinkish cast in the white wall but I don't know exactly what you are seeing as pink without having the print in front of me.
For me the clear winner is the Canon as expected as it is highly saturated reds in the above L40, next to that I prefer the Z with the APS.
What I cannot fathom is the need for these rich reds that lend themselves to a photo paper over matte. This very image on Satin would be a perfect fit. To each his own....
Hmm forgot the image
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil, thanks for your help, we really appreciate that!

Looking on your proofs the pink highlights on the peppers are also very visible, though the contrast is not as strong as in my printshot, but that may partly come from the automatic of the camera when shooting the print.

So this is an out of gamut problem and not a printer problem with my personal Z3100?

BTW, the pinkish cast in the wall is not the thing I see as a problem.

Also it is not the question, if a satin paper would be a better choice for exactly this picture, as I like to have a working printer under all circumstances. That the satin print quality is better than the matte is wellknown.

Would I get improved print quality with a RIP or APS in THIS image on matte paper?

Best,

Clem
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neil snape
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2007, 11:05:44 AM »
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Well unfortunately get used to the fact that the Z's weak point is saturated reds on matte media. It is lessened by using more coated matte paper as Epson enhanced matte or HP Smooth FA.
I'm still divided on which reds are better APS or Easy. In this case APS is by far better. Yet in the subjective sense as I think these peppers should be a more magenta blue red than Epson's yellow reds. The new Vivid Magenta will surely pull the reds in favour of Canon and HP with APS . I wouldn't do without APS as a photographer with a Z 3100.
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deelight
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2007, 11:10:07 AM »
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I wouldn't do without APS as a photographer with a Z 3100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks, Neil!

This is a very clear statement.

@all: have a nice evening!

Kind regards,

Clem
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dhoelscher
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« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2007, 12:12:12 PM »
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For the record: I am on MAC OSX and print from PSCS3.

One ist the original (sundried peppers) and the other is a shot of the print (due to open aperture not totally in focus!).

Dark reds in the print are muddy and not as contrasty as the file and in certain areas became more kind of green/yellow and the worst are highlights that turn into pink in an abrupt step.


[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Also for the record:  something that I had NEVER heard of until surfing yesterday.  There is a bug apparently in OS X when printing from CS3 that mis-applies the wrong profile if the printer is not set to be the "default" printer in OS X print center.

See the following Pixelgenius page (look down towards the bottom) for an explanation/ what to do about this.

Apparently this is only on OS X 10.4 and CS3 on the Mac.

[a href=\"http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html]http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html[/url]

DDH
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neil snape
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2007, 01:41:28 PM »
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Also for the record:  something that I had NEVER heard of until surfing yesterday.  There is a bug apparently in OS X when printing from CS3 that mis-applies the wrong profile if the printer is not set to be the "default" printer in OS X print center.

See the following Pixelgenius page (look down towards the bottom) for an explanation/ what to do about this.

Apparently this is only on OS X 10.4 and CS3 on the Mac.

http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html

DDH
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just tried switching the default printers and this doesn't necessarily apply to all printers or drivers then. On the HP I can find no differences, although you'll have to test this yourself.
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dandeliondigital
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2007, 02:31:25 PM »
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snip>> I have a hunch we are all going to be very happy with this update when it is finished.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148537\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Jon,
Glad to hear HP is getting feedback on the HP Printer Utility. Can't wait for those improvements!

When it comes to the firmware....I keep checking every day.

Been looking forward to it since mid August.

So long for now, TOM
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2007, 05:39:45 PM »
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I thought it might be worthwhile to show what reds really do with matte and satin paper on the Z and how they look with softproofing and gamut warning.  Profiles for both Litho-Realistic and ID Satin were created in APS with TC9.18 targets.

Softproofing:
Rendering intent:  Perceptual (would have been better to use relative)
Black point compensation
Simulate Paper Color

The image as worked in CS3


The image softproofed with Litho-Realistic profile - (no corrections)


The image softproofed with Litho-Realistic profile w/gamut warning (no corrections)


The image softproofed with ID Satin profile (no corrections - gamut warning showed nothing)


These reds are an extreme example for sure but should give some idea why paper choice is critical.  Neil has been preaching this for a long time.

I wish Jeff Schewe had demo'd softproofing with a matte paper in Camera to Print instead of Epson Premium luster.  His techniques are still work great but this kind of shows the points in the extreme.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 05:44:02 PM by rdonson » Logged

[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
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neil snape
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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2007, 12:50:08 AM »
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Yes the paper choice is critical for problematic reds for sure.

Did I say that for HP's media the highest gamut media is the High Gloss Contract Proofing? It has a higher gloss than the ID Gloss, no HP logo on it, is thinner and less robust, but the white of the paper is better than ID, and the gamut extraordinary. I sent off a copy of the profile to Joseph Holmes and he returned the gamut volume as being higher by far than Epson and still a fair edge higher than Canon  both on their respective premium papers. So if you want a paper for colour that has no rival, that should have you getting out the sheets in the sample pack. I have an APS profile of HGProof if you need it.

Off topic . Now that I'm obliged to get back to  printing on the 9180, I immediately see the strength in the B&W on the Z. The Z is so neutral, yet brilliant, full of life. The 9180 just doesn't cut it with too much bronzing, coloration. I did cook up a Photoshop curve for printing B&W images via Photoshop handles color, with custom profiles that come closer. Write me if you're interested.
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deelight
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« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2007, 07:19:45 AM »
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I thought it might be worthwhile to show what reds really do with matte and satin paper on the Z and how they look with softproofing and gamut warning.  Profiles for both Litho-Realistic and ID Satin were created in APS with TC9.18 targets.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow, thats interesting, Ron!

How would the Epson Matte softproof with out of garmut warning look like with the same picture?

Anybody who could do a comparison?
Clem
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