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Author Topic: IMAGE QUALITY: D3, D300 vs. 1D/1Ds Mk III vs. ZD  (Read 27993 times)
Anders_HK
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« on: August 23, 2007, 12:05:25 AM »
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With 1Ds Mk III 21MP announced the other day, there was discussions of image quality compared to Mamiya ZD.  Now... just now... Nikon today just announced:

D3 12MP - http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/eight_ye...hanging_pro.php
D300 12MP - http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/nikon_in...he_new_d300.php
14-24, 24-70 f2.8 - http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/professi...enses_enter.php
400 f2.8 VR, 500, 600 f4 VR - http://press.nikonusa.com/2007/08/nikon_ad...w_supertele.php


Above Nikon announcements are high tech featured, but what about image quality? There seem nothing in the writing that speaks of much improvements (except at high ISO). I dare say that in image quality, the Mamiya ZD will win hands down to above Canon and Nikons (excluding at high ISO). What about Nikon's rumored upcoming larger MP in six months? Quote from http://bythom.com/2007comments.htm

"Unfortunately, if I'm right about which prototype is being introduced this week, the Canon/Nikon pro user debates will continue unfettered. That's because Canon will up the 1DsII from 16mp to 21mp this week, and Nikon will be once again stuck facing the "fewer pixels" complaint from some users (because they're comparing the wrong camera with the wrong camera). But if you go back and read my roadmap, the high resolution follow up camera from Nikon isn't expected until the middle of next year (and the about-to-be-announced high-speed pro camera is following at about the predicted interval, especially if it doesn't ship until later this fall). Thus, the fireworks are probably not over yet--Nikon appears to be about six months behind Canon in announcing new pro cameras this time, but appears also to be clearly matching or exceeding them this time around (again, making some assumptions about image quality). I can wait six months."

There have been some rumors of a RGB sensor, yet that is in speculations. New technology could potentially improve image quality of DSRL, but... could it by much?

Any thoughts?  

Regards
Anders
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mcfoto
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 12:26:39 AM »
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Hi
The D3 will be priced at $5000.00 USD, not bad!
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KenRexach
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 10:23:45 AM »
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The Nikon D3 is basically exactly what the Canon 1Dmk3 should have been. 12mp, full frame with nice features like crop modes and features like this "The D3 also features a unique Virtual Horizon digital level sensor that indicates the camera’s alignment relative to the true horizon on the rear LCD screen or in the viewfinder" very very usefull and cool! Also, Nikons lcd on paper at least seems amazing.

Naturally lots of tests are in order before any conclussions are made but things look very very promising and dont forget a high resolution D3x is to be released next year posibly by spring with 20+ MP, maybe up to 24mp...

But man, GAME ON!!!

Thanks Nikon!

Lets see if Canon finally is forced to lower the 1Ds price from $8,000!
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paulnorheim
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 10:30:40 AM »
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The Nikon D3 is basically exactly what the Canon 1Dmk3 should have been. 12mp, full frame with nice features like crop modes and features like this "The D3 also features a unique Virtual Horizon digital level sensor that indicates the camera’s alignment relative to the true horizon on the rear LCD screen or in the viewfinder" very very usefull and cool! Also, Nikons lcd on paper at least seems amazing.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135040\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Perhaps this will force Canon to give up the 1.3x crop factor sensor, and only keep the full frame & the 1.6x crop sensor?
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paul norheim
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 10:33:19 AM »
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Perhaps this will force Canon to give up the 1.3x crop factor sensor, and only keep the full frame & the 1.6x crop sensor?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135042\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Canon will show us a 1DMk3N before the olyimpics next year.
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trigeek
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 10:44:11 AM »
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I would love to find a way to do a blind test of several cameras... put an identical scene from several cameras out there and have people vote on which is best... after voting, then reveal the camera. Analogous to what audiophiles do. I say this because Digital Outback posted 3 raw files... 1DmkIII, 5D and Fuji dSLR... I looked at the three raw photos and could not walk away with one I thought was better... each had good/bad points buy a clear winner?... nah (IMHO)

Anyway, with all of the opinion on IQ, I would love to see this test happen...

Any clever individuals out there?
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KenRexach
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 02:09:21 PM »
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I would love to find a way to do a blind test of several cameras... put an identical scene from several cameras out there and have people vote on which is best... after voting, then reveal the camera. Analogous to what audiophiles do. I say this because Digital Outback posted 3 raw files... 1DmkIII, 5D and Fuji dSLR... I looked at the three raw photos and could not walk away with one I thought was better... each had good/bad points buy a clear winner?... nah (IMHO)

Anyway, with all of the opinion on IQ, I would love to see this test happen...

Any clever individuals out there?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Camera choice is quite a personal thing and determining a favorite by IQ alone is really tough since there area lot other factors to consider most of which can only be compared while using the cameras for a while. IMHO most current DSLRs offer really good IQ at reasonable ISOs (100-400) provided one has good technique.

I find Nikon's attention to detail amazing in the new cameras really surprising. Features like integrated "virtual horizon level" in the viewfinder and lcd, dx and 4x5 crop modes including proper viewfinder masking and af during live view are just awesome and thing I really wish my Canons had. Just last week I couldve used that for several architectural shoots I had. Also the high resolution lcd seems awesome (at least on paper) and finally high end DSLRs get an lcd worthy of the cameras.

Also, Nikons new 24-70 2.8 and 14-24 2.8 zooms look awesome.

I think Canon was really caught sleeping on this one IMHO.

So where does that leave the Mamiya ZD? Well, like I said months ago, just too little too dang late. The Canon is a third generation model so its extremely well sorted out a reliable integrated image capture device that works reliably under an extremely wide variety of conditions and situations. Its raw files can be read and processed by basically all leading converters and image manipulation software. I can only afford one camera system so the choice is easy for me.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 02:13:24 PM by KenRexach » Logged
wilburdl
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 02:15:11 PM »
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It's funny how the Canon and Nikon announced at the same time when the 1DsII and D2X came out.  They must have spies in each respective camp or maybe they just go to lunch together...
At any rate, this once very lopsided race has gotten significantly more interesting. I can see Nikon following up with a 21+ MP camera sometime next year. I think it's safe to say that film's demise has gotten that much closer. Interesting times indeed.
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Roskav
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 02:17:58 PM »
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Are the new Nikons using 8 bit sensors?
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Leping
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 02:22:46 PM »
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14 bit (12 bit by option), just like the new Canons.

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Are the new Nikons using 8 bit sensors?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135096\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Snook
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 05:45:29 PM »
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MAN I Love this stuff....  
They are indeed good times... And I agree that the ZD was a little too late.
But definitely the ZD made Canon come out with an announcement for sure.
Snook
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thewanderer
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 06:01:54 PM »
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my camera choice is now guided by lens ownership,, i have a 600, 300, assorted other L stuff,,, flashes,, ,, no way i would take that beating,,,,
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2007, 07:13:22 PM »
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But definitely the ZD made Canon come out with an announcement for sure.
Snook
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I don't believe so. My guess is that the 1ds3 announcement is mostly driven by Nikon.

My guess is that, having realized that the upper hand had probably been lost technically in the prosumer and PJ/Sport, they had no choice but to react with a communication of whatever was available, and better yet to anticipate the press release by a few days. This looks like it comes from "damage control for dummies".

Whether the D3 will actually impact Canon sales remains to be seen, but the problem is that the whole marketing strategy of Canon has been based on a very clear implicit message "being better than Nikon". That's why they kept using these images of sport events with many white lenses etc... Based on the current specs, the D3 has clearly the potential to reverse this trend.

The people inside Canon marketing who believe that they got where they are thanks to the - then - smart marketing leveraging of their actual pro dominance in some geos/fields can only reach the conclusion that the Nikon D3 announcement is a very significant threat. Not an immediate one, but a clear and present one.

My, again, guess is that Canon marketing has sort of lost the influence it used to have on engineering and finance. Those 2 dpts have clearly decided to limit the investements since market share was good. Now Canon marketing is facing a situation where they don't have the right tools anymore to maintain the idea that Canon is the technological leader in photography.

Regards,
Bernard
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mcfoto
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2007, 07:16:39 PM »
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Hi
For those questioning the ZD which I think is very well priced considering you can pick up a bunch of prime lenses on ebay for a bargain. Have you looked at the price of the Hy6 camera. I will still continue to use both the ZD & the new Canon 1Ds MKIII.
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KenRexach
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2007, 09:16:54 PM »
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I don't believe so. My guess is that the 1ds3 announcement is mostly driven by Nikon.

My guess is that, having realized that the upper hand had probably been lost technically in the prosumer and PJ/Sport, they had no choice but to react with a communication of whatever was available, and better yet to anticipate the press release by a few days. This looks like it comes from "damage control for dummies".
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree.

Ive known for a while that the Canon 40d and 1Ds mk3 have been ready for a long while, close to one year. Canon just didnt have any pressure to release them so cant blame them to milk the current models for as long as they could. In fact the new Nikons look good on paper but they have yet to be widely used and tested obviously so they are unproven.

Canon released the 1Dmk3 first in anticipation of the D3 no question but its basically the first time ever that Nikon has released a camera, well 2 this time, that beat recently released Canon counterparts in sensor size, MP count and features. It has always been the other way around. Remember when Nikon came out with the D2h, 4MP and sketchy at high iso, BAM! Canon released the 1D mk2 with DOUBLE the MP and great high iso performance. In the low end there was the digital rebel, bam! first DSLR under $1k...and so on. Now they go on and release the 40d which is basically what the 30d should have been in the first place and a 1D mk3 that is 10MP (a hard sell marketing wise in a market flooded w/ 10mp dslrs) and has focusing issues. The 1DsMk3 does remain at the top and its the first DSLR to break the 20 MP barrier, well heck, the 1Dsmk2 is still unbeaten in MP by anything but the mk3. BUT Nikon has yet to release the D3x, which might have over 20mp also.

What does all this mean? Well mostly, the damage was done with the 1Dmk2, lots of people changed over to Canon and have heavily invested in Canon glass. BUT Nikon finally offers some competition after close to 4 years of Canon dominance. We might see more agressive specs and features in Canon products and lower prices. Would be nice to see the 1DsMk3 at $6000 or less...
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2007, 09:27:10 PM »
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What does all this mean? Well mostly, the damage was done with the 1Dmk2, lots of people changed over to Canon and have heavily invested in Canon glass. BUT Nikon finally offers some competition after close to 4 years of Canon dominance. We might see more agressive specs and features in Canon products and lower prices. Would be nice to see the 1DsMk3 at $6000 or less...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep, that's also how I see it.

Nikon has finally released something that the market at large sees as being probably competitive, and this will overall drive the prices of both Nikon and Canon down a little bit.

Regards,
Bernard
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2007, 09:43:05 PM »
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Most replies to my original post is not addressing what I asked of: IMAGE QUALITY. Yes, the D3 has impressive features, but ultimately what matters to us is the IMAGE QUALITY that the sensor can capture.

There is no question that the ZD beats 1Ds Mk III and D3 in image quality hands down (low ISO).  My BIG question is in relating to the high resolution Nikon version of D3 to be released in perhaps six months:

1) Can a 24MP Bayer 36 x 24mm sensor come near the ZD. I do not think so because smaller photosites, or, can they... if similar like Phase One 39MP but on the smaller sensor area?

2) Can a 36 x 24mm RGB Foveon type sensor make much improvement over a Bayer sensor as in 1)?

3) How near the ZD in image quality could Nikon reach with above?

   Regards
Anders
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phila
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2007, 09:58:12 PM »
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"There is no question that the ZD beats 1Ds Mk III and D3 in image quality hands down (low ISO)."  


Bold statement to make given both the Canon & Nikon are still months away from being released!
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2007, 11:23:14 PM »
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There is no question that the ZD beats 1Ds Mk III and D3 in image quality hands down (low ISO).  My BIG question is in relating to the high resolution Nikon version of D3 to be released in perhaps six months:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nodoby knows the exact gap between the 1ds3 and the ZD, and we have zero information today about the D3x.

I agree with you that there will most probably still be a significant gap between the ZD and the 1ds3, but are we talking detail, DR,... it is simply too early to tell.

Quote
1) Can a 24MP Bayer 36 x 24mm sensor come near the ZD. I do not think so because smaller photosites, or, can they... if similar like Phase One 39MP but on the smaller sensor area?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

- detail: probably not since I assume that the D3X will have an AA filter, while the ZD doesn't. On the other hand, the pixels of the D2x were very sharp considering the presence of the AA filter, so the gap might not be huge.

- DR: this would be surprising.

Quote
2) Can a 36 x 24mm RGB Foveon type sensor make much improvement over a Bayer sensor as in 1)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, it definitely can. The main value will be in color definition and color has always been one of Nikon's priorities.

Quote
3) How near the ZD in image quality could Nikon reach with above?

   Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No idea whatsoever.

The best thing today is to use your ZD and take sellable images with it. You will only know if it was worth the money of not the day you retire by computing how much money these images will have contributed vs how much money you would have made by either not having a camera at all, or a lesser one.

The market value of the ZD will be decreasing in the coming months, no doubt.

Regards,
Bernard
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2007, 11:37:50 PM »
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Bernard, your post makes sense, saw it after posting this...

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"There is no question that the ZD beats 1Ds Mk III and D3 in image quality hands down (low ISO)." 
Bold statement to make given both the Canon & Nikon are still months away from being released!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not at all bold   :
We know....
1) Image quality of the 1D Mk III seem like a crop of 1Ds Mk III.
2) There is nothing in the D3 that speaks of a very significant imrovement in image quality over other DSLRs.
3) The image quality of the ZD or any medium format digital is a very significant improvement in image quality of any DSLR.

With the D3 Nikon has presented a 36 x 24 mm sensor based DSLR with what sonds like highly competitive image quality compared to other DSLRs. The D3 has high ISO capabilities. The sensor in D3 is unlike medium format sensors such as the ZD not focused on ISO 50-400. Nikon seem serious in going after the sports and PJ market with what they need. Assumably since they have done their homework on doing so, one could speculate that what is rumored that they will present in six months is something serious for higher MP in high image quality at perhaps lower ISO.

Canon simply took the 1D Mk III's 1.3x crop sensor and made it 36 x 24mm 1.0x. Nikon cannot do that. They need to use a higher MPand high quality 36 x 24mm sensor, or else their upcoming camera may not have image quality to compete with the now announced D3. My thinking is thus on what sensor could do such a task?

Assumably that sensor/camera will have less image quality than my one month old Mamiya ZD camera.... or else slight dissappointment since I am in process of selling all my Nikon gear. Of course... what matters is images... and my ZD will still help me capture nice images.    If I am not misstaken, no DSLR (except ZD) has yet been built with a quality sensor from Dalsa or Kodak, or could that be up for a change? Or could a 36 x 24mm sensor from other sensor fabricator do the task, perhaps Foveon or Fuji type???

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 11:39:40 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
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