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Author Topic: Valid MF criticism or not?  (Read 57039 times)
jonstewart
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 06:53:07 PM »
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As I look over my VAST canon Fd system I smile with great pain.
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That's a superb answer... I just about remember the transition from FD to...what's that new one?... oh yes, the EF mount!

You brightened my day! Thanks.
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Jon Stewart

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samuel_js
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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2007, 06:33:26 PM »
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Interesting that Canon are not playing the 'image quality' card  They know they are beaten in that respect. I think we all already know that Canon has some virtues, which makes them the camera of choice for many. Image quality isn't one of those virtues, so for people looking at max IQ they go for digital MF or large format film.
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Of course they're not playing. Just look at the famous Canon Mark III sample image:
[a href=\"http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/eos1dsm3_sample-e.html]http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/...3_sample-e.html[/url]


Everyone owning a DB will laught at this image. At least from my point of view is a disaster.... And I'm sure the MKIII can do better than this but... the way to MF quality is still very long for Canon...
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Jeffreytotaro
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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 08:35:28 PM »
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My cameras in order of use:

Phase One P45+ on a Cambo Wide DS with Schneider lenses

Leica M8 (very little distortion on a range finder camera)

Then the Canon 5D.

For me the Canon lenses are not up to the job when it comes to resolution or distortion.  11mp to 17mp now 22mp, who cares.  Those lenses cannot see even half of those pixels.  At least they boosted to 14bits.  Still a big difference between 16 and 14 though.

I shoot a lot of straight lines so I care about distortion.  We all use the best tool for the job.  For me it's not Canon.  Works for many others though.  MFDBs are not going anywhere soon.

In terms of workflow the Phase back means less work for me.  No distortion corrections, no color fringe corrections.
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Jeffrey Totaro
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phila
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 03:22:36 AM »
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Still a big difference between 16 and 14 though.
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Given Photoshop works in 15 bit, I wonder just how big the gap really is?
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rainer_v
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 03:43:53 AM »
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"Of course they're not playing. Just look at the famous Canon Mark III sample image:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/...3_sample-e.html
Everyone owning a DB will laught at this image. At least from my point of view is a disaster.... And I'm sure the MKIII can do better than this but... the way to MF quality is still very long for Canon..."


"For me the Canon lenses are not up to the job when it comes to resolution or distortion. 11mp to 17mp now 22mp, who cares. Those lenses cannot see even half of those pixels. At least they boosted to 14bits. Still a big difference between 16 and 14 though."

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in which respect this image is a desaster? just curious to know,- although i have mf backs in my bag.
and .... 16bit is much better than 14bit especially if these 2 additional bits just exist in your iimageination. no back use more than 14. the rest is "floor", same as in the canon.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 03:44:16 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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sundstei
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2007, 04:11:26 AM »
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Of course they're not playing. Just look at the famous Canon Mark III sample image:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/...3_sample-e.html
Everyone owning a DB will laught at this image. At least from my point of view is a disaster.... And I'm sure the MKIII can do better than this but... the way to MF quality is still very long for Canon...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You have to enlighten me here..in what way is this photo a disaster?

I use a A75 + H1 and am not really laughing. I have seen some sample files from Leaf and Phase that would make me laugh  

Svein Erik
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eronald
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2007, 04:32:16 AM »
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You have to enlighten me here..in what way is this photo a disaster?

I use a A75 + H1 and am not really laughing. I have seen some sample files from Leaf and Phase that would make me laugh  

Svein Erik
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It looks exactly like a 1Ds2 file for skin tone. I just sold my 1Ds2, haven't used it for months because of this skin tone.

Edmund
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josayeruk
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2007, 05:03:07 AM »
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You have to enlighten me here..in what way is this photo a disaster?

I use a A75 + H1 and am not really laughing. I have seen some sample files from Leaf and Phase that would make me laugh  

Svein Erik
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Wow, where would I start!!

- Skin tone
- Wierd CA on the out of focus areas (lens?)
- Noise
- Oh and none of it is in focus so hard to judge!  

Jo S. x
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samuel_js
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2007, 07:48:12 AM »
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You have to enlighten me here..in what way is this photo a disaster?

I use a A75 + H1 and am not really laughing. I have seen some sample files from Leaf and Phase that would make me laugh  

Svein Erik
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Wow, where would I start!!

- Skin tone
- Wierd CA on the out of focus areas (lens?)
- Noise
- Oh and none of it is in focus so hard to judge! biggrin.gif

Jo S. x


+Green cast on skin shadows.. etc.... etc...
Is not my intention to start a war here, but ... please don't tell me this compares to your H1.
I've taken portraits with a Ligtphase that are far better than this one... but again, not my point to make fuzz... it's just my opinion...
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Dustbak
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2007, 08:13:25 AM »
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Though I do not find it a really bad image, quite good for a DSLR actually, I agree with things found.

Besides that, it isn't really sharp in one place either. It is supposed to be on her right eye but it isn't really there. The so specific softness of DSLR is very visible.

The ca under her arms, weird magenta/green reflections in the pearls. The Magenta/Green line on the left side of her dress.

For a shot to advertise the quality of the flagship product it is not good. Have a look at the floating thumb on the right side.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 08:25:42 AM by Dustbak » Logged
AndreNapier
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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2007, 08:28:45 AM »
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I just came back from 2 weeks Euro trip where we were testing some models. Through the west countries I was using A75/RZ but on my last leg to Tirana Albania because of harsh economic situation I decided to leave the camera in Milano hotel and take only 1DsII with me.
This was the very last time I did it. In my opinion files are like beautiful girls. A lot of them look great by itself, but when you put a pretty street girl on stage with real beauty contestants you can't hold your smile.
This is the laughing that we are talking about.  
Canon files make a great life companion, reliable, pretty, dependable and ready whenever you are. Do not put them against MF and you are set for life.

http://AndreNapier.com
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2007, 09:23:01 AM »
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"but when you put a pretty street girl on stage with real beauty you can't hold your smile."

I like that. Well done, Andre.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2007, 09:35:43 AM »
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"but when you put a pretty street girl on stage with real beauty you can't hold your smile."

I like that. Well done, Andre.
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My wife just noted that the difference between 12bit and 16bit is pretty much the same as between 24 inch waist and 32 inch waist on a model. It is hard to see! Isn't it?
Andre
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thsinar
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2007, 09:40:00 AM »
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I'd like to "reorientate" the discussion.

The initial statement and claim from this published statement/announcement was:

"... today’s medium format digital backs often do not fit even recent products from the same manufacturer. Will a newly-purchased component be compatible with same-brand software and hardware in the not-too-distant future? Betting on, and investing in, the EOS-1DsMarkIII isa sure thing."

It was less a question about quality comparison than to put in doubt the compatibility of products (and also the "survva" of) from MFDB manufacturer in the near future ("not-to-distant").

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2007, 10:26:44 AM »
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Sometimes my mind goes to sleep while reading some of these seemingly non-sense threads. If one has doubts about compatibility of products in the future or near term the answer is simple - Don't Buy. I'll try and stay awake in the future.
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thsinar
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2007, 10:54:44 AM »
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Excatly.

Thierry

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Sometimes my mind goes to sleep while reading some of these seemingly non-sense threads. If one has doubts about compatibility of products in the future or near term the answer is simple - Don't Buy. I'll try and stay awake in the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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jonstewart
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2007, 11:24:16 AM »
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Through the west countries I was using A75/RZ ...

http://AndreNapier.com
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How do you find the crop factor with that combination, if you don't mind me asking? (I'm thinking of use in interior, btw)

TIA
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Jon Stewart

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sundstei
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2007, 11:34:40 AM »
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+Green cast on skin shadows.. etc.... etc...
Is not my intention to start a war here, but ... please don't tell me this compares to your H1.
I've taken portraits with a Ligtphase that are far better than this one... but again, not my point to make fuzz... it's just my opinion...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136542\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was not stating that the photo was perfect, simply that I see just as much trouble in my Aptus files hence not making the file "laughable". There are strange noise areas even in ISO 50, CA all over from most H1 lenses, sensor blooming in highlight, colors off, wb off, weird tonalities, frame vignetting and Leaf is still not able to make the left and right side of the frame the same brightness  I have shot with PhaseOne since the H10 to P45 and Leaf since A22 to A75. MF is not immune to all the problems mentioned above.

Skintone is not the effect of equipment.. i hear that so often its getting ridicules..

The photo is not terrible. Its weak in some technical areas, but what do you expect at f1.8? And its just a JPEG.. what can you judge from a simple JPEG?

As far as 14 vs 16 bits.. I doubt there is anyone alive that can see the difference in a blind test. If you work the file really hard.. you can have the advantage of having more RAW data, but usually it will just be "more of the same".

SveinErik
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 05:20:37 PM by sundstei » Logged
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2007, 02:21:19 PM »
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Hi,
Try to shoot a graybackground with a spot, in other words a gradiant.

I bet everyone will see the difference in 12-14-16 bits.

I have switched from the 5D to the Mamiya ZD back and now the leaf and the gradiants are stunning with the Leaf (16 bits) were ALL other solutions did not did very well

Also in skintones the 16 bits is clearly seen, the skin is much smoother and more detailed.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2007, 02:28:14 PM »
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How do you find the crop factor with that combination, if you don't mind me asking? (I'm thinking of use in interior, btw)

TIA
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I use it for a full year now and find it a very workable solution. It will all depend on your needs.
For people shooting it works perfect. 110mm is an amazing lens with a beautiful drawing. If you need very wide angles 50mm is limiting. You get a great look of Rz 50mm wide but not that much coverage. My back is dedicated to H mount but once I tried the Rz I never looked back.
I blacked out the rest of the screen and by now I do not even think about it.
Andre
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