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Author Topic: we want white ink !!!  (Read 8557 times)
Happyfish
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 03:11:47 PM »
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not woth it  

sorry I wanted to make some people think and just wanted to hear what others though
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 08:45:27 AM by Happyfish » Logged
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2007, 04:14:40 PM »
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If you profile a printer properly, the paper color under the ink is accounted for and isn't really an issue. You're tilting at windmills with a "solution" in search of a problem. With a good printer profiling tool and technique you can print the same image on multiple paper stocks without significant differences from paper to paper.

The suggestion of printing the image on a white paper stock with a slightly warm extended canvas border/frame is an excellent solution to what you're asking for; try it before knocking it.
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Happyfish
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2007, 05:39:23 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 08:49:18 AM by Happyfish » Logged
SeanPuckett
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 06:40:22 PM »
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Look, seriously, if you want to print on transparencies or socks or doors or linen or cheesecake or aluminum siding or your hamster, white ink is necessary because those items don't naturally come in "white."  But if you're feeding paper or indeed almost anything opaque less than 20 mils thick through a photo inkjet printer, chances are excellent that it is already white, and such a white that there's no reason in the world to try and improve on it.  And if there's parts of it you don't want to be white -- you print on them so they are some other colour!  

White ink isn't needed for fine art printing on paper or canvas.  
I'd take a high gloss coating before I took white, any day -- oh, wait, my HP has that.

Now I'll eat my words and say that if I want to print bright white highlights on real hand-made paper, I'm SOL.  But -- and read carefully -- that isn't what these printers are for.  They're designed to print on white or near-white media.  They're subtractive colour mixers.  You're looking for a full spectrum printer; that's down the hall.

Don't be complaining because your horse doesn't climb mountains.  But neither does a goat carry you and a hundred pounds of gear all day across the pampas.  Hammers don't drive screws well, either.  Wrenches can open beer bottles but you don't want to drink from them once you've done so.  Understanding the intentions and purposes of the equipment is how you learn to master it; not by ragging on what it doesn't do.  There's stuff out there that does do what you want; it weighs five tonnes, is bigger than a shed and costs more than a Porsche.  Maybe Epson or HP or Canon are planning a white ink.  But I really really doubt it will be available anytime soon, for all the reasons explained to you already.

Keep dreaming, please.  But realize the practical limitations of what there is, and use those to your advantage.  Or, find another route to the solution entirely.  There's money to be made, no doubt about it.  Find out how!
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Happyfish
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 08:46:30 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 08:49:41 AM by Happyfish » Logged
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2007, 03:10:58 PM »
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Profiling does nothing for white since it does not exist

Actually you are the clueless one. While what you say is true where no ink is being laid down, but it is only true where no ink is being laid down. No ink at all is generally a bad thing, especially if you like keeping any detail in your highlights. By keeping your highlights at 250 or so instead of 255, and printing with Relative Colorimetric rendering intent and black point compensation on, you can print warm toned highlights on cool paper and vice versa. Ever notice people printing sepia tone prints on white paper?

The tools you already have can do the job just fine if you learn to use them effectively.
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Ray
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2007, 09:58:05 PM »
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I wonder would it have to be pure thick white ? or just whiter or enough to help lighten the part ? I dont know its kind of out past what we have thought of ?

but to say its not needed ? I dont know I think is short sited really we have white in this world !!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

White and black are really misnomers or metaphors. They are relative terms. Everything is either a color or a shade of gray. A pale shade of grey next to a dark shade of grey can appear white. That same pale shade of grey next to an even paler shade of grey will appear grey and the paler shade of grey will then appear white. I think this is probably why we have 'matte black' ink for matte papers. The whites are not as white as in gloss papers so we have to increase the intensity of the blacks to compensate.

For printing on 'greyish' paper, 'white' ink would appear to me to be useful as long as the 'white' ink is a paler shade of grey than the paper. The Dmax of the print would then be increased.

The questions that arise in my mind are this. Is it easier to produce a white ink than a white paper? Is it possible to produce an ink which is whiter than the whitest paper? Is it possible to produce a white ink which has greater longevity than an equally white paper?

If the answers are in the affirmative, then I think a white ink could offer an improvement over the exisiting system.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:05:09 PM by Ray » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2007, 03:05:18 AM »
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The questions that arise in my mind are this. Is it easier to produce a white ink than a white paper? Is it possible to produce an ink which is whiter than the whitest paper? Is it possible to produce a white ink which has greater longevity than an equally white paper?


[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The answers are: No ..... No ..... No.....

And the best question would have been: Can a water based inkjet printer lay down a white ink on the whitest paper available and make that spot more white than the unprinted white paper ? And the answer is NO. And have that white ink run with the rest of the inks at the same time ? NO, NO, NO.

Is there a solution, Yes and it has been spelled out many times already.

That it must be frustrating to have such an enlightened idea answered with practical problems and the actual need answered with a simple practical solution must be the key of this continuing thread. In other cases one would be happy with the answer and start printing.

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Happyfish
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2007, 03:36:48 AM »
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Actually you are the clueless one.


from a guy who does not know me  

NICE
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 08:50:32 AM by Happyfish » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2007, 04:56:27 AM »
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The answers are: No ..... No ..... No.....

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well if that's the case, there's not much more to be said, is there?  

It would clearly be more expensive to lay an additional ink on the paper. If it's not going to be whiter than the whitest paper, it's difficult to see what purpose could be served. Is it possible that the gamut of the inks could be extended through the availability of a white pigment? I often have trouble with out-of-gamut colors when softproofing images with 'simulate paper white' turned on.
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Happyfish
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2007, 04:58:56 AM »
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« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 08:51:09 AM by Happyfish » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2007, 06:02:21 AM »
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funny how some people are taking this  hehehhehe
I did not ask for a solution yet people want to give one
I did not seek a answer but boy some of you sure have one !
I did not say prove it cant be done but many of you want to show your brain off  
I did not say it could be done but again many of you are going to say it cant
the artists types start to think and think and then say yeah I could try this or that with it wow that would be cool
yet the engineer type like to prove or say it cant be done
I do love how threads go in directions they do  you learn a lot about people  

man this would be a good psychology experiment
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have worked for artists for more than thirty years and both sides were satisfied 90% of the time when the work was done. In silkscreen and digital printing + access to more printing methods. Found solutions for the weirdest ideas and concepts which didn't always end as printed products either. It happens that what looks like the hard to achieve, ultimate concept in the eye of the artist gets more impact in the end with down to earth solutions. It has to do with the experience of the printer and his knowledge of the media he uses. For the artist that is often unknown territory where he can imagine all things possible that that uninspired down to earth printshop owner never thought off. What I have learned of artists in the past is that they are human beings like we all are. Human beings have expectations that are not always realistic.

This was the most concrete vision you presented in your first message:

>>I have always thought how cool to print on nice warm all natural paper but have the white of the ocean waves or white of the snow etc.. on nice warm paper <<

We thought it would help you to make it possible by telling you how we do that in the best way possible, many artists like that solution but we understand now that you rather keep things in the air and shout that it is so cool up there.

I add a new experience to my list: an artist can become a troll on the web like all human beings can. I have met human beings, artists among them, that were trolls in real life so it isn't a surprise.

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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SeanPuckett
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2007, 06:13:56 AM »
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Artists and engineers are both creative people; they simply create in different realms.  Photographers often must be both, because the purely visual aspects of photography have to be committed to paper or screen through the use of large number of machines and specialized techniques.  I might say that the fine art photographer is the bastard child of the artist and engineer, and as such has both the best and worst traits of the two of them.  If you ask me how to make highlights brighter, I ask the artist and engineer both in me how to do it.  I don't predispose my answer to an impractical suggestion of adding white ink to printers and media that can't make use of it.

If you want some Do It Today solutions to the highlight problem, consider ....

... buy a little tube of titanium white and a 000 camelhair brush and paint the highlights on the prints yourself.  It won't be whiter than the paper -- probably -- but it will certainly stand out.

... highlights are only as bright as the illumination provided. Get a few 400 watt solar spectrum metal halide lamps to illuminate your work.  With the right photo paper, careful contrast mapping and good mounting techniques you'll have blinding highlights without ruining the rest of the image

... backlighting is also very popular for high contrast images.  Translucent white film is available from graphic arts suppliers.  You may need to overprint the black to get decent apparent DMAX, but this will certainly provide a pop.  Give it a try!

... gloss also enhances the appearance of highlights.  Consider using a glossier media than you would otherwise.  The increased apparent DMAX over many matte surfaces can also provide a contrast pop.

... digitally alter the image to add a halo or glowing effect to the superhighlight areas.  Even a subtle amount of visual blooming can make things seem much brighter.

... display your images on a modern high definition LCD screen.  For tear-your-face-off highlights, it's hard to beat a 400cd/m2 backlight.

... fiber-optic lighting has mostly been used to make cheesy elvis posters, but you can also use it for fine arts work.  Careful enhancement of specular highlights via fiber-optic inserts could result in amazing results.

That's just five minutes of thought.  There's more possibilities, hundreds more.


Here's my point: if you ask the right question -- "how do I get whiter whites" -- you'll get a variety of answers tapping the artists and engineers alike.  If you ask the wrong question -- "can white ink make my cheap inkjet printer produce whiter whites" -- the answer will be "no, no, a thousand times no."

What do you want?  An argument, or an answer?
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2007, 09:13:35 AM »
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I see Happyfish has edited and changed every single one of his/her posts in this thread which destroys the progression of discussion for future viewers. If only we could take back what we've said in real life...
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T_om
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2007, 11:05:36 AM »
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I see Happyfish has edited and changed every single one of his/her posts in this thread which destroys the progression of discussion ...


The "discussion" was destroyed when the name calling began... and it was not Chad (Happyfish) that started down THAT infantile road.

Tom
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Ray
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2007, 10:36:22 PM »
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If you want some Do It Today solutions to the highlight problem, consider ....

... buy a little tube of titanium white and a 000 camelhair brush and paint the highlights on the prints yourself.  It won't be whiter than the paper -- probably -- but it will certainly stand out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
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neil snape
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2007, 11:24:00 PM »
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Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To have the ink print down thick enough to actually coat the paper would require a paintbrush type of head or a ribbon type like the Kodak. To use the white in a way that it is screened with the other colors, it has to be somewhat thin for the writing system. Maybe it is possible to have both in the same printer, but it's highly unlikely that the demand would ever reach a level where any printer manufacturer would do so.

As others have suggested in the thread, there are two types of white ink, and two very distinct and separate ways of application of each. Neither correspond to a current methodology. The closest to being used as a supplement is to write pigmented white ink with a fine drop yet large (why not 6-20?) pL which would enhance an image but not coat it. Hence the thin inks would not coat even at a 100% dot, and be weaker in screened areas.
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Ray
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2007, 12:55:29 AM »
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To have the ink print down thick enough to actually coat the paper would require a paintbrush type of head or a ribbon type like the Kodak. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not saying you're wrong but this is not my experience with the existing ink colors. Sometimes I have cyan contamination of the yellows from my Epson 7600, resulting in yellows that have a distinct green cast (something to do with oversaturated capping sponges apparently, and probably also due to irregular and infrequent use of the printer).

When this first occurred and no amount of nozzle cleaning seemed to fix the problem, I replaced the yellow cartride which was almost due for replacement anyway, smashed open the old cartridge and lightly painted, with a broad brush, pure yellow ink on a scrap of Premium Lustre paper.

I then created a pure yellow square in Phoshop (255,255,0) and printed it, comparing the results with the painted effect. Eventually the problem cleared up as the contaminated ink got exhausted and I discovered by accident, in the process of experimentation, that ProPhoto RGB could produce a noticeably yellower yellow than Adobe RGB.

But the fact is, whilst it was difficult to paint that yellow ink in a completley even manner, which resulted in the thicker parts appearing a slightly duller yellow causing hints of brush strokes, the general solidity and saturation of the printed yellow was very close indeed to the painted yellow. I didn't have a microscope handy, but there was no hint that the printed yellow square was not a complete cover.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2007, 02:12:54 AM »
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I had one card in my sleeve for a possible solution: printing pure Optical Brighteners on the paper. With the right light one could achieve a gain there. Not a real solution as the stuff will fade fast, needs short wave light to function, pulls the paper color to the blue-green, and will show a lot of metamerism in changing light conditions.


Ernst Dinkla
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SeanPuckett
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« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2007, 06:31:16 AM »
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Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray,

Little raised droplets of glossy paint grab illumination in the room and scatter it as specular highlights.  A great effect if you're willing to invest the time in manual application.
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