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Author Topic: Z3100 Matte Red Problem  (Read 8481 times)
alanmcf
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« on: September 02, 2007, 08:52:52 PM »
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I bought my z3100 24" printer in May and updated to 5.0.0.4 with HP help. After a bunch of struggle I gave up for the summer hoping for new energy and maybe a firmware update by fall. I print landscapes from PS CS3 onto Epson Enhanced Matte and HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art paper. I also print to my Epson 2200 (and have to a university 9600). So this weekend I got back into it. Results are disappointing, but I think now I have some understanding. Sorry for the length of this -- I have read previous post about this problem.

I download the modified Atkinson test image from www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html. On the z3100 with HP Instant Dry Gloss and the 2200 with Epson Matte the strawberries are bright red with a beautiful vibrant reflection that makes me want to eat one. The Epson on matte is surprisingly/amazingly close to the HP on gloss.The GretagMacbeth ColorChecker matches correctly to my eye and the four kids have good skin color. They both match my screen well.

However printing with the z3100 onto both the Epson Matte (my z3100 profile) and the Hanemuhle (HP's profile) creates strawberries with dull red color and no reflective vibrancy. They look like they need go be eaten quickly for tomorrow they will be rotten -- the result totally unacceptable.

Turns out also that the Epson Matte with my z3100 profile is in general on this and other photos way to red producing sunburned looking faces, and blue shirts that look violet. The supplied HP Hahnemuhle profile works better on the Epson Matte -- meaning the profiling system is also unacceptable (though I have only profiled once). And just in general changes the look of many of my photos.

I would love some help!!! Does anyone printing on matte not have these problems? Does anyone have profiles that fix any of this? I suspect it requires new firmware -- any idea when this might be coming? Any help would be most appreciated. I will call HP soon.

Thank you, Alan
Spokane

P.S. I am printing having PS CS3 manage the colors and telling the HP driver to let the application manage the colors. I am on Windows XP. I do have QImage which works the same.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 09:09:27 PM by alanmcf » Logged
thierryd
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 03:14:00 AM »
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The supplied HP Hahnemuhle profile works better on the Epson Matte -- meaning the profiling system is also unacceptable (though I have only profiled once). And just in general changes the look of many of my photos.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Surprising. Did you make a calibration with the Epson matte paper before the profiling ?
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Christopher
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 04:24:31 AM »
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Surprising. Did you make a calibration with the Epson matte paper before the profiling ?
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Ntohing new at all. Myself and quite a few otheres were talking about this problem for over 3 months now.... Nobody reall listened and nothing really happy. I can only tell you the follwoing.

1. Sell the printer and buy something else.
2. Buy a profiling solution like Monaco Profiler, which works better, but still the z3100 is no match for any Epson on Matt paper.
3. Stop printing on Matt with strong red colors ans switch to Glossy or Satin instaed.


Sorry, but right now these are the only options, there is NO REAL fix for this problem and I don't expect one before a new HP series ( z3300 ?) is launched.

Edit:
Yes it's also true, that the profiling solution provided with the printer is OK for Glossy media but really sucks at matt.

Edit 2:
I worked close with HP on these issues and THEY KNOW that they are pretty bad, but I have the feeling they already gave up on the color mixing.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 04:26:16 AM by Christopher » Logged

thierryd
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 07:20:02 AM »
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1. Sell the printer and buy something else.
2. Buy a profiling solution like Monaco Profiler, which works better, but still the z3100 is no match for any Epson on Matt paper.
3. Stop printing on Matt with strong red colors ans switch to Glossy or Satin instead.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1. Your choice  
2. You are speaking a lot about profiling. But you have two steps with the Z3100: the calibrating / the profiling.  A good profil is always better than a bad one of course, but with this printer, the calibration target is the most important step to have proper red.  If your paper choice for the calibration is not appropriate, any profile will be disappointing. I don't have  Epson mat paper so I can't help you. But if you really want to use the Z3100 with Epson paper, did you try the calibration as if it was a photo mat paper, a fine art paper or a fine art paper >250g/m2 ?
3. Now I'm happy on mat paper with HP Hanhemuhle Fine Art Paper and Moab entrada fine art natural.
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alanmcf
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2007, 12:02:16 PM »
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I was pretty bumbed last night when I wrote my original post -- it is not often that an amateur (meaning me  spends $3000 on a printer.

There are two problems: 1) the red problem matte in my case on HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art paper and 2) the profiling on matte in my case on Epson Matte. Only the first problem really bothers me as I would be quick to get my profiles made some other way.

But I figure (and I may be wrong which is why I am writing) that the red problem is in the firmware and no amount of profiling will solve it. A RIP of course would solve it, but waiting for ImagePrint 7.0 at $1500 is not attractive.

Initially the printer calibrated doing its thing with the HP Instant Dry Gloss. Then when I profiled the Epson Matte it calibrated then profiled. But again, if the HP canned profile on HP Hahnemuhle is not working... does that not say the problem is in the firmware?

Thierryd, you say that you are happy with your two matte papers... might you print the test image I linked to above and tell me how the reds look?

Thanks for your responses, Alan
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thierryd
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2007, 12:40:13 PM »
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Initially the printer calibrated doing its thing with the HP Instant Dry Gloss. Then when I profiled the Epson Matte it calibrated then profiled. But again, if the HP canned profile on HP Hahnemuhle is not working... does that not say the problem is in the firmware?
Thanks for your responses, Alan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not sure I understand well your workflow.
You must do a calibration for all papers. The calibration process works for your printer and a specific paper. If you have done the calibration only for HP Dry Gloss and Epson Matte, you can't use properly HP Hahnemuhle until you calibrate this paper too.
You do a calibration for the HP Hahnemuhle first, then you can use either the HP canned profile or, if you want, do your own profile on your printer. But the HP canned profile can work well (as well as your own profile), only if you have calibrated first the HP Hahnemuhle paper on your printer. In fact with all canned profile, you can avoid the profile process, but not the calibrating process.
And each time you change the paper you choose a paper (the one you calibrated) and a profile (the profile working with this paper if the printer is calibrated for this paper).
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Thierryd, you say that you are happy with your two matte papers... might you print the test image I linked to above and tell me how the reds look?
Of course but not before next week, I have an assignement outside.
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thierryd
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2007, 12:46:26 PM »
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Thierryd, you say that you are happy with your two matte papers... might you print the test image I linked to above and tell me how the reds look?
I already printed this test. My opinion could differ from yours.
Send me an adress by "personnal message" and I could send you the print     (but only next week)
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alanmcf
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2007, 01:00:42 PM »
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Not sure I understand well your workflow.
You must do a calibration for all papers.

Oops... figured the calibration and profile went together... so I have never calibrated for the HP Hahnemuhle Smooth  . I hope to get to it a bit later today. Sounds also like I need to revisit the manual . I get so in a grove thinking I am doing "it" right.

Thanks, Alan
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alanmcf
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2007, 05:47:03 PM »
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The calibration helped quite a bit on the HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art. The red strawberries are a titch better (not up to the 2200 but getting there), and the extra red disappeared from the midtones (meaning the kids are not sunburned and the sky is blue not purple). More on the Epson Matte tomorrow. Thanks for getting me one big step, Alan
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rdonson
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 08:58:11 PM »
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Alan,  the strawberries printed on the Z3100 with Epson Enhanced Matte will NOT look as good as they do on the Epson 2200 or the 9600 on the same paper.  It may be the HP red pigment, the way HP mixes colors or that the HP pigments simply don't work well on the coatings of some Epson papers.  The Epson papers are obviously optimized for their inkset.  

The profile I made for EEM with the APS TC9.18 target produces better results but does NOT fix the reds.

The reds on the HP HSFA paper shouldn't be much of an issue though.  Are you using the HP supplied profile for that paper?
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Christopher
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 05:06:16 AM »
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Alan,  the strawberries printed on the Z3100 with Epson Enhanced Matte will NOT look as good as they do on the Epson 2200 or the 9600 on the same paper.  It may be the HP red pigment, the way HP mixes colors or that the HP pigments simply don't work well on the coatings of some Epson papers.  The Epson papers are obviously optimized for their inkset. 

The profile I made for EEM with the APS TC9.18 target produces better results but does NOT fix the reds.

The reds on the HP HSFA paper shouldn't be much of an issue though.  Are you using the HP supplied profile for that paper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's funny how people always defend their own printer. Yes I have that dawm thing for 7000EUR here to, but do I have to defend it ? NO. It is a fact that the z3100 series can't handle red on matt papers. Yes they are better on some than on others, but compared to a Epson 4800, they just SUCK.

Yes calibrating is a thing, but not important, because so many paper setting works exaclty the same. Also they don't change anything in the colour mixing.

The whole problem has just to do with ink mixing and YES it would be possible to mix a fantastic red. ( I'm talking just about the inks, get them out mix them out them on a matt paper, and you will be amazed what is possible) Now why doesn't HP do it ? I don't know perhaps they can't or they would change something else to worse.

Also the discussion about HM PhotoRag and HP HSFA is totally a waste of time. I have both papers in a 36 in rolls here and the difference is meaningless. Both are not great and yes a print seen by it's own looks still fine. But it besides a Epson print on either paper and you will be shocked.

The whole problem is also deeper problem. Don't you think there is a reason, why there is still no good RIP for the rpinter ? Or some RIPS drive the printer without the additional colours ? Or why ImagePrint still hasn't relaesed a support ? They know how f***ed up the colour mixing in that printer is.


IF YOU ARE really a person how knows about colours and has a good colour sense, YOU will be never happy with the output from the z3100 series on Matt paper.


One last statement. Was the printer ready for the market then HP shipped them ? No
Would I ever buy that printer again ? NO
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rdonson
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 08:44:30 AM »
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It's funny how people always defend their own printer.
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Christopher you are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I don't see where I was defending the printer.  I admitted the reds on some matte papers weren't up to those produced on the Epson printers.  I haven't tested all matte papers so I stick with those I have.  I've not seen a huge problem with reds on HP HFSA or even HPR Satin.  I guess I'm not the color expert you are.

I have Epson printers in addition to the Z3100 and I'm not about to defend Epson either.  Each printer is what it is.  Each company's printers have strength's and weaknesses.  

If the Epson printers were perfect I wonder why you ever bought the Z3100.

Colorbyte says they're working on supporting the Z3100 and all we can do is wait.  When it does support it then you can complain about how much ImagePrint 7 costs.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 08:46:39 AM by rdonson » Logged

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Christopher
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 12:33:13 PM »
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Christopher you are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I don't see where I was defending the printer.  I admitted the reds on some matte papers weren't up to those produced on the Epson printers.  I haven't tested all matte papers so I stick with those I have.  I've not seen a huge problem with reds on HP HFSA or even HPR Satin.  I guess I'm not the color expert you are.

I have Epson printers in addition to the Z3100 and I'm not about to defend Epson either.  Each printer is what it is.  Each company's printers have strength's and weaknesses. 

If the Epson printers were perfect I wonder why you ever bought the Z3100.

Colorbyte says they're working on supporting the Z3100 and all we can do is wait.  When it does support it then you can complain about how much ImagePrint 7 costs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My post really wasn't about you. It was more a general thing.

The Epsons have a great colour rendering on Matt and Glossy media, BUT the ink changing is just plain stupid. So Epson ios out of the question, because I have to print on both media types pretty often.

The last thing, yes I know, that Colorbyte is working on it and I also know why it takes so long, but that's not for this discussion.

I know I kinda sound pissed, but I really AM. What HP is doing here is just plain wrong. They are selling a product which isn't ready and we are paying a lot of money to be beta testers. HP also has a deadline, to finally come up with a real solution, after that they will get their printer back.
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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 03:25:20 PM »
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Seems like any post that centers around an "issue" will always turn negative. First let me say that I resent the statement that anybody who owns a printer will automatically defend it. I think there are enough other posts to contradict that. Of course cognitive dissonance drives a lot of irrational behavior, but I would like to add that many people have perspective enough to comment on their own purchases in a positive manner without being naive.

Here are a few simple rules of the road when driving a Z printer.

1. Calibration does make a difference. It is much like setting the total inklimit for a paper, when using a rip. The calibration will affect the maximum ink allowed on paper, but not the inkmixing. There is a correlation between maximum ink and gamut, however "more is more" will only take you so far, at which point more can mean less. This also functions very differently on matte vs glossy papers. So the calibration is an important step.

2. Papers that work well for the Epson may not work as well on the HP. All the BS about different coating is actually not as much BS as one would imagine. Epson papers are in fact tuned to Epson ink and, this should come as no surpries, HP papers are tuned to HP inks. Your mileage with third party papers will vary.

3. The media type that you choose when creating a custom paper loads an ink mixing formula that more or less controls how ink is mixed and how much to use. There is not always a logical correlation between the Hp media types and a third party paper. Selecting HP Super HW coated paper, which is very similar to the Epson Enhanced mate, seems like a good choice for profiling enhanced matte. However you will find that if you use the matte litho setting, or the HW fine art paper setting you will increase your gamut. Go figure. In the next firmware there will be an option for fine tuning the amount of ink used for each of these media settings, allowing you to better fine tune the ink limiting for finicky 3rd party papers. The correct setting here makes a huge difference.

4. ImagePrint is not magic. I owned and used a 9800 powered by IP for some time and while they make very good software for photographers, they do not have a unicorn locked in the basement that can grant them powers from which to modify the proprieties of the inkís interaction with the paper to perform better then the multi billion dollar resources of HP. BTW there are a few good RIPs for working with the HP. EFI(not designer edition), CGS Oris, and Onyx. Onyx also allows for overriding the HP ink limiting, and the results are good, but not leaps and bounds better. Also I donít know if anyone has ever tried to perform their own ink limiting for 11 color channels, but itís a tinsy bit tricky. The reason Onyx offer a bit better results, in terms of gamut, is that the linearization and profile are fine tuned to a specific paper. IP produces does the same thing for you, (they also use their own screening) and sell it as a complete turn key package, which is very appealing. I doubt that you will see significantly expanded gamut on HP specific papers. But surprise me.

5. So after taking everything else into account, the profiling parameters and software make a huge difference. I can generate a profile on the Pro satin that ranges from 740,000 total volume to over 850,000. All of the profiles produce ďgoodĒ results, and all are different. Some deliver better shadow detail, some are more saturated in the red but produce a more purple blue.  Itís a balancing act. The easy color profile are good. Iíll stand by that. However different targets and different software does impact how the red is rendered. I think right now Monaco is producing the best results on matte paper. Sorry to say it but the 5k software package actually ears itís money.

6. PerspectiveÖ. I refuse to post more gamut comparisons, Iíve beat that horse to glue. Here is the bottom line- The gamuts are DIFFERENT.  If the Hp had been out for years and Epson had released the 9800ís in the last year we would have people up in arms about the Epson blue issue. Look the HP red is not going to be as vibrant as the Epson red on matte papersÖ.DONE. however it will be quite close if done right. On the other hand Epson Blues, and Greens will not be as saturated as the HP on any media. Let me make a bold statement. If I were to buy one printer for only printing on matte paper it would probably buy an Epson. The HP looses a lot of its advantages if the criteria are reduced to this one type of output. If I was going to buy a printer that printed on both media in equal parts it would be the Z3100. If I was only going to print black and white, on matte media it would be the Z3100. If I was only going to print on Photo Paper it would be the Z3100. If I was looking for a SWOP proofing printer it would probably be and EpsonÖ..See where Iím going with this? The printers have their strengths and weaknesses. If you buy a tool and it doesnít suit your needs even after you learn how to use it so that are milking every bit of performance from it and doing everything correctly then you made the wrong decision in purchasing it. Doesnít mean the product is defective or that you are a beta tester, just means that itís the wrong product for your needs. The iPhone is great for calling people, looking at lewd sites on the internet, and seeing what the whether is like in Meford, Oregon (its hot). If you want to be able to sync up all your exchange calendars, while voice dialing from Barcelona (it also canít cook an egg, however that would have been useful) then itís the wrong product for you.
   But I digressÖ..
The printer is capable of producing an acceptable red to my eyes(and many others). It takes some work to get there however. You need to play around with different media types when using a third party paper. I would also suggest checking out the HP matte-litho and Smooth FA papers they are actually quite nice. (The SFA is PhotoRag but with an HP coating) The new FW in a few weeks will help this. You need to calibrate that media set. The new FW will also allow you to export your paper types to share with others. If that still doesnít get you where you want to be then I would be happy to help in any way I can. I think that you will be able to get the printer to a happy place.


Good Luck
Julian Mussi

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Color Workflow Solutions
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 04:14:56 PM »
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3. The media type that you choose when creating a custom paper loads an ink mixing formula that more or less controls how ink is mixed and how much to use. There is not always a logical correlation between the Hp media types and a third party paper. Selecting HP Super HW coated paper, which is very similar to the Epson Enhanced mate, seems like a good choice for profiling enhanced matte. However you will find that if you use the matte litho setting, or the HW fine art paper setting you will increase your gamut. Go figure. In the next firmware there will be an option for fine tuning the amount of ink used for each of these media settings, allowing you to better fine tune the ink limiting for finicky 3rd party papers. The correct setting here makes a huge difference.

   But I digressÖ..
The printer is capable of producing an acceptable red to my eyes(and many others). It takes some work to get there however. You need to play around with different media types when using a third party paper. I would also suggest checking out the HP matte-litho and Smooth FA papers they are actually quite nice. (The SFA is PhotoRag but with an HP coating) The new FW in a few weeks will help this. You need to calibrate that media set. The new FW will also allow you to export your paper types to share with others. If that still doesnít get you where you want to be then I would be happy to help in any way I can. I think that you will be able to get the printer to a happy place.
Good Luck
Julian Mussi

www.spectraflow.com
Color Workflow Solutions
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137308\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great points, Julian!  I feel like I'm just starting to learn this printer.   I appreciate the help that Robert (Panascape), Neal, Sean, you and others have been providing.  It definitely shortens the learning curve.

As you've said part of the secret sauce is figuring out which paper type to use on third party papers.  HP did a nice job covering some of them in a tech newsletter but didn't include things like EEM.

I think I'll try to create a profile with APS for EEM using the HP matte-litho paper the next time I've got some loaded.  That's if it happens before the next gen of the firmware.  

Thanks!
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 05:29:00 PM »
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Great points, Julian![a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let me echo Ron's thanks.  Many of us are very pleased with our Z3100s and things just keep getting better.

Fred
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 06:20:20 PM »
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Here are a few simple rules of the road when driving a Z printer.
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Julian,
thank you for this (and other)  exellent contribution.

about the z3100...( that I am using)
If I understand it correctly the gamut of a certain paper differs with the total amount of ink added to that paper..

One strong point of the Z3100 is that you can make an ICC and calibration on the spot. You will allways be able to calibrate what you are doing - whatever you do- with very little effort.
So I can imagine that you make more than one profile for each paper-
for instance:
one with a large amount of ink- that will better address the  dark colours ( low key prints)
and one with a small amount of ink that will address light colours better ( high key prints)

Taking this a step further- I would like to be able to address the amount of each ink separately- yes- all 12 - even the Gloss Enhancer.
In that case I could make the printer all mine, and it would make perfectly use of the built in spectro. Again I would be able to calibrate and make een icc profile on the spot.

So if I would like to produce a picture with only dark red colours ( to stay on topic), I would be able to make my own mix and calibrate it just how it suits me.
Than the printer would be what photoshop is for me now - an intrument  that gives me the freedom to use it how I like.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 06:21:52 PM by kers » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 12:57:59 AM »
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Julian you really hit it on the head so to speak as most who own the z3100 would agree.
Buy this printer unless you do mostly matt paper prints and/or you want a SWOP proofing printer. Luckily I did my research before buying this printer and had a good local sales person who knew both printers well. Since I do mostly satin/gloss prints, this printer was my obvious choice. That said, I still get great prints on HP Smooth Fine Art. Yeah, the red is somewhat dead compared to the Epson (not drastically different) but look at those greens. Always tradeoffs, but hey, I do art and my clients aren't looking at the reds, there looking at the image.

As good as the reds on the Epson are so are the blues and greens on the HP. We get accustomed to the colors were used to seeing on the device/paper were used to seeing them on.
I didn't know how blue-violet my skies were until I printed the same Epson 9800 prints on my HP z3100. I also don't miss the bronzing in those same colors on the Epson.
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 04:50:50 AM »
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Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow,Sep 4 2007, 10:25 PM

4. ImagePrint is not magic. I owned and used a 9800 powered by IP for some time and while they make very good software for photographers, they do not have a unicorn locked in the basement that can grant them powers from which to modify the proprieties of the inkís interaction with the paper to perform better then the multi billion dollar resources of HP. BTW there are a few good RIPs for working with the HP. EFI(not designer edition), CGS Oris, and Onyx. Onyx also allows for overriding the HP ink limiting, and the results are good, but not leaps and bounds better. Also I donít know if anyone has ever tried to perform their own ink limiting for 11 color channels, but itís a tinsy bit tricky. The reason Onyx offer a bit better results, in terms of gamut, is that the linearization and profile are fine tuned to a specific paper. IP produces does the same thing for you, (they also use their own screening) and sell it as a complete turn key package, which is very appealing. I doubt that you will see significantly expanded gamut on HP specific papers. But surprise me.

5. So after taking everything else into account, the profiling parameters and software make a huge difference. I can generate a profile on the Pro satin that ranges from 740,000 total volume to over 850,000. All of the profiles produce ďgoodĒ results, and all are different. Some deliver better shadow detail, some are more saturated in the red but produce a more purple blue.  Itís a balancing act. The easy color profile are good. Iíll stand by that. However different targets and different software does impact how the red is rendered. I think right now Monaco is producing the best results on matte paper. Sorry to say it but the 5k software package actually ears itís money.


Good Luck
Julian Mussi



Similar experience here.

And it isn't different for the Canon <> Epson gamuts. A good friend with an iPF9000 and a 9800 got Onyx + the service of a color profiling company from Canon to get it equal and they failed to reproduce the Epson gamut on the Canon with HM coatings. Some prints are better on one model and some on the other. He bought a HP B9180 for his son and tried a flower image he liked of the 9800 but couldn't make as nice on the iPF9000 and the HP B9180 print (with default profile) was in his eyes actually better than both. I doubt he can get that effect on the next image that comes along.

I have been through a week of different external RGB profilers and in the end I tend to conclude that if I edit the default Thick Fine Art >250 gr. or the Matt Litho Realistic profile for HM matt coatings + add some ink I get as far as making new profiles. Getting heavier color at the dark side with the external profilers cuts in the overall gamut. I rather check the profiles on paper than in gamut viewers where the HP defaults show wider gamuts anyway but that could well be the softproof side of the profile that is flattering the outcome. On paper the difference isn't as visible. Of the external profilers I preferred the old Profiler Pro with the target manipulated to keep dark blue blue and lighten up the light half as I added 10+ density in the driver for denser dark color. Profile created within Photoshop CS with the Wide Gamut space. Take out a bit of yellow in the skin color in the Kodak Colorflow profile editor. It fits almost centric within the HP TFA>250gr profile but on paper there's little difference in saturation, pure cyan a bit heavier with the HP one, yellow heavier with the PP one.

The Wasatch SoftRip 6.2 has 16 bit, will ink limit and linearise the 7 color channels of the Z3100: MK+LK+LLK are one channel, no quad possible so PK out on matt, the rest of the hues + GE. The RIP is supplied with three Z3100 profiles that have all the hues (including RGB) run up to the neutral spine and no grey inks used at all. That shows all the things that could be avoided with a sophisticated inkset the Z3100 has: metamerism, too much ink used, hard to keep neutrality. I have tried to use and profile it as an RGB device with 0-100 GCR but failed so far, the RIP allows it though. In my opinion the Wasatch people were not able to get it right either with their N-Channel profiling and made an easy job of the profiles delivered with the upgrade. There's a canvas profile supplied that has a gamut in the SoftRip viewer that equals a Wide Gamut space in volume yet the number of saturation points describing that gamut are as low as stars visible above a big city, all inks thrown in but the grey ones.

Differences between gamuts will stay. Epson color was first and it became a taste like Kodak color dictated taste for a long time. It is harder to get an N-channel printer profiled but I think that HP did a good job with their last upgrade and expect that it will improve with the next one too considering the possibility to influence the ink limit. I doubt that there are people around that have more insight in the color technology of this printer and can deliver better drivers + profiles than HP does. "RGB" profiling isn't inferior to N-channel or CMYK profiling in my experience so far.

Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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deelight
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 06:56:11 AM »
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BTW there are a few good RIPs for working with the HP. EFI(not designer edition), CGS Oris, and Onyx. Onyx also allows for overriding the HP ink limiting, and the results are good, but not leaps
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Anybody who uses one of these RIPs? Are the results better - means worth the money - than on the HP driver? How about the reds on matte paper? I print on OSX / Z3100.

Thanks,
Clem
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