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Author Topic: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up  (Read 110453 times)
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #120 on: September 19, 2007, 04:24:26 PM »
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Every CS can stack images ??
I believe use lumosity as blending mode to stack for exposure.
Never done it but I know a lot of startrail shooters use it.
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espressogeek
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« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2007, 05:01:46 PM »
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Every CS can stack images ??
I believe use lumosity as blending mode to stack for exposure.
Never done it but I know a lot of startrail shooters use it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140531\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2007, 05:35:26 PM »
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Possibly,Mamiya is pricing their DB products as a 'lost leader' strategy.

I.E.,they decide to sell backs at,or a little below cost,with the expectation that
migration to their brand will spike significant sales gains in the camera and lens lineup.

Currently,no other manufacturer,apart from Hasselblad, has the product line in place in
the marketplace to make this a possibility.

MT
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do not think Mamiya can afford to run campaigns around using ZD backs as loss leaders, at least not at this point in time when they almost their underwear and died.  Furthermore, their cameras are not that meaty in margins that they can do so.  They may not choose to make on the ZD project so as to enter this market hoping to get a sizeable volume but they won't be losing money on the deal either.

I suspect that Mamiya will be looking to launch a Version II after they have reworked the ZD and ZD back and at that point in time, they will up prices slightly but deliver a more desirable solution.  When? no later than October 2008 is my guess.  All speculation of course.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #123 on: September 20, 2007, 02:01:09 AM »
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Let's take a deep breath. 

It does not seem to me that he was attacking you or anyone else with his post. All he was saying, perhaps a bit un-artfully, is that he has yet to see any information in this thread as to how Sinar, Leaf, Phase1, etc. compete with the ZD at 2-3 times the price.  How do they justify their prices given the affordability of the ZD -- in objective and factual terms rather than with marketing department spin.  Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.
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Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...


Seems my post did get the conversation going  

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 02:02:49 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #124 on: September 20, 2007, 02:34:54 AM »
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I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
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CS3 extended can stack,  meaning average, you can use that to reduce noise or remove people from shots, see link below:

[a href=\"http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-stacks-in-photoshop-cs3-extended/]http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-...p-cs3-extended/[/url]

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2007, 03:13:30 AM »
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CS3 extended can stack,  meaning average, you can use that to reduce noise or remove people from shots, see link below:

http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-...p-cs3-extended/

Edmund
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Edmund,

Very interesting  

SilkyPix, are you reading?? Please...

Mamiya...can something be done in camera?  

Anders
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2007, 03:33:14 AM »
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Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...
Seems my post did get the conversation going   

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While I'm one who is wishing for Mamiya to be successful in the MFDB market so that these backs can be purchased more economically, I do not think one should question why competing products are pricing theirs so much higher.  Commercially, there are
so many examples where products are priced disproportionately for seemingly the same functional benefits.  For example, why is an European car priced much higher than a Japanese one?

I'm more troubled by the disproportionate pricing used by different dealers or distributors for the same brand and model of backs.  I have compared prices for Phase from US dealers and the Singapore dealer.  The prices quoted in Singapore is ridiculously higher than US list price.  It makes buying a Phase One back in Singapore nonsensical.  Phase is certainly aware of their dealers' pricing because they have their own reps around different regions.  What this means is they leave it to dealers to maximise their profits, even if they are selling above Phase list prices.  I would feel rather stupid to buy Phase from a Singapore dealer.

Some time ago, I started a thread that MFDB is not ready for everyone yet.  I still believe that is the case.  I only hope Mamiya can dent this small closed market and let consumers have better options.  They will get their back and camera working in due course.  I would be happy if they can just have their ZD perform properly up to ISO800.  Would I be asking too much?
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samuel_js
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« Reply #127 on: September 20, 2007, 03:50:03 AM »
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I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I got the P21 instead of the ZD. More expensive, but I'll never look back. The step in quality is really big. (this is how I see it anyway). The files from the P21 are amazing, not mention to the speed...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 04:19:45 AM by samuel_js » Logged
MarkWelsh
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« Reply #128 on: September 20, 2007, 04:11:22 AM »
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I do not think one should question why competing products are pricing theirs so much higher.  Commercially, there are so many examples where products are priced disproportionately for seemingly the same functional benefits.  For example, why is an European car priced much higher than a Japanese one?

Market forces work in the opposite direction, making it hard to cite examples to support this statement. The example you've chosen illustrates the common practice of overcharging European markets because they are soft targets: wealthy and not consumer-savvy, but that's not what we're talking about. This is the anomaly we should be questioning:

Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

The burning question remains: how is is that Mamiya has an almost identical product to Leaf and Phase on the market at exactly one third the price of its competitors? Presumably we will hear from Phase and Leaf that they're practically charitable institutions anyway, and already struggle to clear any meaningful profit at a mere $20K, yet Mamiya has a product 90% as good sat on the shelves at $7K.

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.

Quote
I would be happy if they can just have their ZD perform properly up to ISO800.  Would I be asking too much?

I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2007, 07:03:07 AM »
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Hi,
If I may answer that, I have shot extensivly with the ZD back and now the Aptus 22.

The difference according to me is very well there.
The Aptus works MUCH faster in the studio, there is no buffer, meaning you can shoot tethered untill you run out of discspace, for me that's not really a problem because I only once or twice with the ZD ran into buffer full.
The ZD was quicker in continues mode with 1.2 frames per second instead of 1.2 seconds per frame, but again both are adequate for me.

Where the BIG gap lies is image quality.
The Leaf files (can't talk for phase) are MUCH more defined in the shadow areas and highlights (probarbly the 16 bits issue).

When looking at the design of the units the leaf and phase have a MUCH better display, although this is more of a status symbol  because juding your photo on a digital display is a dissaster.
HOWEVER the composition and histogram is very good judgable on the leaf and was not usable on the ZD, the histogram clipped WAY before my raws would clip and the composition was off by about 10%.
But again, who judges their pictures on the display.

One advantage for the ZD was the removable IR filter which makes it possible to use the back for IR photography.
The disadvantage for this was/is dust.
I did not comment on this earlier because I wanted to make sure but the ZD is a real pain when it's dirty, it took me about one hour to clean the unit so there was only one spec of dust visable (when I got the back it was sprayed with dust), after that it kept clean for a LONG time, with the Leaf there is much more distance between the glass and the sensor meaning dust is not a big issue.
With the ZD because of the removable filter you have to first clean the sensor, than the back of the IR filter, connect the IR filter and clean the top, make a test shot and find out there is dust and repeat the procedure never knowing EXACTLY were the dust was/is, with the leaf there is only one surface.

Another advantage of the ZD was the option of a low pass filter which can be bought seperate.

Also the ZD back was VERY fast in boot and responded with the camera, meaning power up the camera and you are ready to shoot in 2-3 seconds with the leaf you are 7-8 seconds away from shooting.
HOWEVER it happend quite a few times the back did not shutdown when I shut down the camera meaning my battery was empty when I picked up the camera again the next day.

The leaf with tethered shooting does not need a battery, the ZD does.
The leaf has a rocksolid firewire connection which CANNOT be broken in normal use (or you have to use it as a lasso to catch running models maybe), the connection on the ZD is very brisk and not powered meaning you have to always use the battery.

Working with both will give you wonderful results.
I have shot several white papers with both the ZD and the leaf, and here it's really that you get what you pay for.
With the ZD there was some green infection on the bottom part of the sensor (about 10% too much green), the leaf is very very even, even with a picker the fall off is within the margin, if not you can use the gain files which I have never tried but it's good to know its there.

Longer exposures with noise control are on both systems not what it was designed for but the leaf does it better over 10 seconds below 6 I cannot see a difference to be honest (on ISO50).

The leaf goes down to ISO25 which is a wonderful thing for me.
The ZD goes to ISO400 with 1/3rd steps which can be usefull when you want to set things quick between 100 and 200.
On the other hand you can always underexpose 1/3rd step and correct it in PS.

ISO400 on the leaf is better than with the ZD.
Both are FOR ME usable in B&W but the grain structure (if we can call it that) on the Leaf is much more pleasing.
For color work ISO400 is for getting the shot but not for printing it large or customer use.

The ZD has AWB which the leaf does not have, but this is not necessary because the Leaf only shoots RAW, and the ZD also JPEG (which by the way in my opinion is not a standard I would set in a MFDB).

Crop factor is equal on both about 1.1 which is good enough in my book.

The price difference in the Netherlands is about EU 5000.00 between the Leaf and the ZD and in my opinion both give you a tremendous ammount of quality for the price, I have choosen the Leaf because I wanted 16 bits, I do alot of stuff that's on the edge of what my equiptment can take and I will always look for more so the Leaf was a natural choice.

When seeing the price difference of 15.000 US I would opt for the ZD without a doubt, that's just too much of a difference, unless you earn your money with photography.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2007, 07:15:12 AM »
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I would like to add.

Price difference can come in MANY forms.
Look at high-end audio/video (here we go again ).

There are alot of scalers/players/projectors out there with the Gennum VXP chipset, I know that chipset very well and can tell you that for example the Crystalio II videoscaler which retails for arround $5500.00 does a MUCH better job than the SAME chipset which is build into a player which retails for $1500.00.

It's all about the implementation of the hard/software.

In other words you can all use the same Dalsa chipset but one manufactorer will choose a 16 bits D/A and one will choose a 14 bits and downsample it to 12 bits, only there is ALOT of the price difference.

Also the whole software suite behind the product costs money.
the ZD in the states is delivered with Lightroom which is of course a wonderful product, but the Capture software from leaf is designed by leaf meaning costs.

Also the price difference can be in (and now I will get my flameproof underwear) quality control.
I have this experience with projectors which we calibrate, there are projectors which are delivered to us on a pallet (15+) and were we find a more than 40% difference in performance from the SAME units.

There are also more expensive units were we find a drift of maximum 2-4%.
There are brands were we find 10% defective, and brands were we found one in two years.

Guess what, the brands that vary the most and have the most dropouts are WAY cheaper and on PAPER they are almost equal to the more expensive brands.

There will always be people that only look at specs.
They see 12 fstops dynamic range, RAW, Dalsa 22MP and that's where they stop reading

The market for MFDB is not large so there will be some pricing of course to the bigger margins, Mamiya is probarbly willing to penetrate this market and probarbly will do so with very slim margins hoping to sell ALOT.
Which I hope they do by the way because that is good for all of us.

I don't know how the service is for both products because I'm somewhat privileged by both brands but I think there will also be a difference.
You can't expect to buy very cheap and get the same support as with a very expensive brand.
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« Reply #131 on: September 20, 2007, 07:25:36 AM »
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Market forces work in the opposite direction, making it hard to cite examples to support this statement. The example you've chosen illustrates the common practice of overcharging European markets because they are soft targets: wealthy and not consumer-savvy, but that's not what we're talking about. This is the anomaly we should be questioning:

Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

The burning question remains: how is is that Mamiya has an almost identical product to Leaf and Phase on the market at exactly one third the price of its competitors? Presumably we will hear from Phase and Leaf that they're practically charitable institutions anyway, and already struggle to clear any meaningful profit at a mere $20K, yet Mamiya has a product 90% as good sat on the shelves at $7K.

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.
I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the chip is only part of the equation...other than that , the a/d converter, processing engines, iso/gain , cooling-active, passive vs. none are all different.  I am not suggesting that the prices are not high,  but I don't think you can base your
 analysis and conclusion solely on the chip.  Additionally, there is a lot to be said for the ability to upgrade Leaf, Phase and Sinar backs.  Part of what I found myself struggling with was the fact that with the Zd, there is no known upgrade path at this time and at the time it was released Mamiya America when asked about the warranty, said there was only a one year warranty available.  That has changed, but that is largely a function of the fact that several people maintained that the lack of an extendable warranty was problematic.  
I think the other thing you are not taking into consideration is that the Zd is effectively a closed system:  As such Mamiya camera body, lens, and accessories sales are  an integral part of the ecomonics in their pricing of the back.  We also have no idea if Mamiya will come out with an additional back or not.  And quite frankly, they might be better served to partner with a back maker, than to continue to go down this path on their own.
I will also add that the back makers have been offering incentives to get people to sign up. Often you have to go to their websites or talk to a dealer rather than just look at the list prices on the web.  
If you want to question anomalies, then perhaps you should expand your examination to the entire dslr market as well:  Nikon has  a 1.5 crop camera with a 12mp sensor selling for $4500 and will soon have a new camera  with the same mp count selling for $1800: the 5d has the same size sensor and mp count as the D3 and yet the price differential is substantial; and what about the difference in price between the 1ds series,the 5d and the 3d?  Is $3300 the floor for what ff dslr's should be selling for?
If  a person wants MFd, and does not wish to pay what Leaf, Sinar, H'blad, and Phase are charging, there are refurb backs which cost less, and there is the ZD. ( I nearly forgot about the 'blad cfv.)   If you believe in the ZD, by all means buy one and support Mamiya, and let the other back makers know you think this is a viable alternative to them.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 02:01:16 PM by canmiya » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #132 on: September 20, 2007, 10:37:40 AM »
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« Reply #133 on: September 20, 2007, 11:15:17 AM »
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Doug,  

Looks like plenty of work went into making that comparison -- thanks.  

What I was hoping for was a comparison at studio lit / hand-held compatible EV levels.  We've already had demonstrated that the ZD is poor at long exposures, for whatever reason -- A/D conversion, excess heat, who knows.  I believe the big question now is  -- at f/5.6 and 1/125, what does that extra $10K of a Phase/Leaf back buy?

For me, unless I'm shooting art, the camera is in my hand.  So EV11 and up is where the rubber hits the road in my shop.  Your chart shows EV6.

Breathlessly curious --


[edit: just speaking for myself]
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 11:23:36 AM by SeanPuckett » Logged

MarkWelsh
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« Reply #134 on: September 20, 2007, 04:13:45 PM »
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I believe the big question now is  -- at f/5.6 and 1/125, what does that extra $10K of a Phase/Leaf back buy?
Not a lot. It does guarantee $10K off your bottom line, of course . . .
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« Reply #135 on: September 20, 2007, 06:30:59 PM »
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Dear Anders,

Apologies accepted!  

My point is rather: why does Mamiya sell a 22 MPx digital back at such a price? And I have said it earlier here: I have no idea HOW they can do that, and I mean it. I understand the position of photographers asking "why is this brand costing so much more, when this other brand costs so much less", but try to turn the question the other way round.

I know the costs involved in developping and manufacturing a new product (and the ZD is a new product, not just an existing back which was improved), I know the costs of labour in most of the countries (among them in Switzerland and in Japan), I know about how many such digital backs it needs to sell to cover R&D costs alone, I know the margins a company needs to be viable in the long term (as well in Switzerland as in Japan). And this knowledge makes me simply wonder, nothing more.

Be also sure that we (Sinar) are always trying to give the most cost effective products. Times are over when it was possible to make business with high margins. There are certain limits to these margins, when it comes to make sure the company is viable in the LONG TERM. And that is our goal, to still be there for our customers in 10, in 20, and who knows, may be in 50 Years.

As for the extras offered by "more expensive" equivalent 22 MPx backs: I think the forum is full of posts from users of the different brands and who have enumarated why they like this brand rather than another one, why they have chosen this camera platform and not the other one, etc ...

I have myself made some shots with a ZD camera, but I don't think it is my prerogative here on this forum to speak about it and what I think about it. Also, it would be dishonest to pretend that I know this competitive product (like any other competitive brand): for this there are many users who can do it better and who are certainly more credible than myself. Anyway, I have made it my "policy" not and never to speak in bad terms about a competitive product, or to speak about it when I do not know it perfectly.

And I respect the choice of those having invested (because it is still an investement) in this ZD camera. Nothing wrong about this and I can believe that this camera does not deliver bad quality images.

But, and this seems the most important for me, don't buy on reports (here or elsewhere), don't buy because you have got the feeling of a good product by reading posts or articles about this product. MAKE YOUR OWN tests, under your own shooting conditions. If you come then to the conclusion tha the product does what you are expecting to get from it, then buy it and be happy about this choice.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...
Seems my post did get the conversation going   

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
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« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 08:35:00 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #136 on: September 20, 2007, 06:45:55 PM »
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I have posted long ago, that sensor prices are not longer the costing point in a digital back. That used to be at the begining of the digital age, when a sensor was about 40 or 50%, of the back price. This is not true anymore. Nowadays, the price of the sensor represents a small part in the total costs of a back. R&D costs, software costs, among others, are a major part of these costs today.

Another important point: the sensor alone does not guaranty for quality, that would be too "easy".

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.
I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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JIMMY K
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« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2007, 07:48:53 AM »
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Mamiya has a newly configured ZD back that has no magenta artifacts in the shadows or highlights,  is sharper and has greatly improved noise levels.  Stay tuned- Mamiya is working hard to improve the ZD back.
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #138 on: September 22, 2007, 08:03:07 AM »
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Mamiya has a newly configured ZD back that has no magenta artifacts in the shadows or highlights,  is sharper and has greatly improved noise levels.  Stay tuned- Mamiya is working hard to improve the ZD back.
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Being your first post, why not give us some background info so that people won't dismiss you as a troll...
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eronald
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« Reply #139 on: September 22, 2007, 08:30:29 AM »
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Thierry,

I would suggest you stop being in denial and notice that the Mamiya back is now *in stock* at retailers all over the world. The Mamiya dealer network is good, and the back encourages sales of lenses and bodies.


Edmund

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My point is rather: why does Mamiya sell a 22 MPx digital back at such a price? And I have said it earlier here: I have no idea HOW they can do that, and I mean it. I understand the position of photographers asking "why is this brand costing so much more, when this other brand costs so much less", but try to turn the question the other way round.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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