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Author Topic: Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL  (Read 33183 times)
ron ritcher
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2007, 08:24:53 PM »
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As far as U.S. availability is concerned, a couple days ago, I ordered 15 sheets of 13x19 ($62-- not inexpensive) from Freestyle Photo in SoCal -- their name came up on the Harman website as a distributor.  Well, paper isn't in hand yet,  BUT they said it has been shipped, so I'm hoping for the best.  You, particularly those on the West Coast as I am, might give them a call.

I am more a matte kind of guy, so would love to hear even more about how the Harman mattes compare with the other well-known players.  And price-wise,  my mental math isn't quite good enough to compare cost with HPR, which doesn't come in 15's, but, hey, my calculator is right here, so . . .

Some of the BEST news I've heard about the line is that it's available in 17x25 for us 3800 users!

--Ron
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 08:25:23 PM by ron ritcher » Logged
BarryS
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2007, 11:23:46 PM »
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It doesn't take much math to figure out the Harman is one of the most expensive papers on the market out of hundreds.  I expect angels to fly out of the box when you open it.  Yay for 17 X 25" size, but it's probably going to be so expensive, they only sell it in 1/2 sheet boxes.  
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ron ritcher
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2007, 11:39:37 PM »
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It doesn't take much math to figure out the Harman is one of the most expensive papers on the market out of hundreds.  I expect angels to fly out of the box when you open it.  Yay for 17 X 25" size, but it's probably going to be so expensive, they only sell it in 1/2 sheet boxes. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

TOO funny! (maybe too true, also, but definitely too funny)

--Ron
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Beeman
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 04:56:39 AM »
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It doesn't take much math to figure out the Harman is one of the most expensive papers on the market out of hundreds.  I expect angels to fly out of the box when you open it.  Yay for 17 X 25" size, but it's probably going to be so expensive, they only sell it in 1/2 sheet boxes. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think part of the cost comes from importing it into the US. Here in the UK it is actually quite competitively priced (surprisingly so perhaps) when compared to other well respected fine art papers. In fact Hahnemühle is eye wateringly expensive in the UK! For example 2 boxes of 15 sheets of Harman comes out cheaper than one box of 25 sheets of Hahnemühle (and in fact most other popular fine art papers). We have the same imbalance in price with papers produced in the US and parts of Europe - it must be transport costs, taxes and duties that make the difference.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:57:27 AM by Beeman » Logged
eleanorbrown
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 10:54:41 AM »
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Well I had to see it to believe it, but this Harmon paper is indeed sharper with greater micro contrast than identical print files done on other fiber based soft gloss papers.  I love the richness and depth (I'm a former silver printer and somewhat obsessive compulsive about print quality ......I like this new paper and am looking forward to trying the new hahnamuhle baryta paper when it is released.  Eleanor
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chris anderson
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 11:36:52 AM »
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how do prints with this paper look from a Z3100?
     C
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rdonson
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007, 11:38:03 AM »
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how do prints with this paper look from a Z3100?
     C
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People are reporting that they look great if you can live with the scratches from the wheels.  
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
chris anderson
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2007, 11:41:13 AM »
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People are reporting that they look great if you can live with the scratches from the wheels. 
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any way to get around that?
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Wanderer
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2007, 11:50:58 AM »
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I just read Richard Lohmann's review of the new Harman Gloss paper.
 

Ron
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For  Mr. Richard Lohmann.  You said  “I have made black and white prints on Harman Gloss with an Epson 3800 printer using the Harrington Quadtone RIP… that are classically neutral” etc.

Would it be possible to post these curveson the Yahoo QTR group please?  The paper is lovely but, as you say, expensive and, I suspect many people would appreciate such generosity,

Thanks,

Wanderer
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rdonson
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2007, 02:05:54 PM »
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any way to get around that?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No workarounds known at this time.

I'm waiting to see if the Hahnemuhle baryta has the same delicate surface.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2007, 07:50:00 AM »
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No workarounds known at this time.

I'm waiting to see if the Hahnemuhle baryta has the same delicate surface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's depressing news, I was about to take the plunge with a Z3100 but if it can't handle these new baryta papers then I'll put that order on hold.

Incidentally, does anyone know about using Harman FB papers with Piezographic inks? I've checked to see if profiles are available on the Piezography site but I can't find anything.
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John R Smith
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2007, 08:40:58 AM »
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It's here at last!

Yes, I have been anxiously waiting for this Harman FB gloss paper right through August, and in fact I ordered two packs of it from three different suppliers this week, so there is advanced faith in the product, if you like. I actually got delivery of some A4 yesterday, and spent all of the evening running some tests. Propped up on my desk as I type is one of the prints from last night, and just to cut a long story short I will say straight off that it is superb.

My tests were on my Epson R2400 with the standard K3 inkset, all in B/W from scanned medium format film, and printed via the Advanced B/W mode on the Epson (I do not use ICC profiles for B/W work). Out of the box, the paper looks and feels very good - it is crisp, has the right sort of "snap", and the surface is very smooth with a nice soft gloss. My first trials were via the rear feed slot as I do with the heavier rag papers, but the gloss feeds perfectly well through the front sheet feed too, as I found out later. On the Epson, there were absolutely no marks on the paper surface from the paper feed mechanism. I also tried feeding a sheet upside down but even that did not mark the paper, so I assume that the problems mentioned in this respect can only apply to certain HP printers.

I am fortunate in that I still have a large archive of my own silver gelatine darkroom prints, many of them on the old Ilford Galerie graded paper, for comparison with inkjet prints. My first test prints used the paper setting as recommended by Harman for the R2400 and set to "neutral", which produced quite a cool-looking print. Toned to "warm" and printed with the dark curve in the ABW mode, the prints on the Harman FB Gloss are uncannily close in almost every respect to the old Galerie prints.

The nearest paper to my ideal in the recent past was the Innova Ultra Smooth Gloss 285gsm, which I have used extensively. In my opinion, the Harman is superior in all respects - it has a nicer gloss, better surface texture, and most importantly better shadow detail. In fact, the Harman has much better shadow detail and as good or better highlight separation than any of the recent fibre-base glossy papers, according to my tests with two very tricky negatives last night. Bronzing with the K3 inkset is minimal, but there is inevitably still some gloss differential - however Harman have got the surface gloss of the paper itself very close to natural gloss of the K3 inks. The only downside I have found so far is that the surface is quite delicate and easily marked, as others have noted. Not as delicate as the Harman FB Matt paper, to be fair, but you will still have to be careful when handling and mounting the print.

I really hope this paper will be a winner for Harman, because I can see that a lot of thought, time and craft have gone into it. This could be the media that makes glossy B/W printing on an inkjet printer no longer the poor relation of the darkroom.

John
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:01:19 AM by John R Smith » Logged

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madmanchan
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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2007, 01:35:31 PM »
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Nice report, John. Can you comment briefly on quality control in the box you have so far? One of the things that has frustrated me with the Innova FibaPrint papers (including White Gloss and Ultra Smooth Gloss) is that nearly every sheet has something slightly wrong with it ... little scuff marks, dinged corners or edges, uneven surface characteristics (that were clearly not part of the design). Any such problems with the new Harman Gloss?
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Richardlohmann
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2007, 01:49:59 PM »
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For  Mr. Richard Lohmann.  You said  “I have made black and white prints on Harman Gloss with an Epson 3800 printer using the Harrington Quadtone RIP… that are classically neutral” etc.

Would it be possible to post these curveson the Yahoo QTR group please?  The paper is lovely but, as you say, expensive and, I suspect many people would appreciate such generosity,

Thanks,

Wanderer
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wanderer and All,

I made my prints on an Epson 3800 printer using K3 inks. I started with the QTR RGB Photo Paper profile. Once in QTR, I loaded these pre-made curves, that came with the software:

Curve 1: UCpk-IlfordSmooth-cool

Curve 2: UCpk-IlfordSmooth-neut

Curve 3: UCpk-IlfordSmooth-sepia

(UCpk-IlfordSmooth-warm is too green and I don’t use it)


I printed at 2880 DPI.

Under advanced adjustments, I increase the ink limit to +5.

I print unidirectional.

As for mixing the curves to create image tone–– I showed three nationally known gelatin silver printers a Harman print. Each person had a different notion of what neutral actually is. One person said that the print was too cool, and another thought it was too warm.

Therefore you should experiment for yourself, as my settings may not meet your expectations of neutral. I made over 100 prints using a variety of settings. I found a little bit of sepia in the shadows mixed with the neutral and cool curves, yield rich warmth in the shadows. The blue in the cool (curve) cancels some the yellow of sepia, and when the proportions are correct, can create a delicate russet color to your print’s lower values. (It reminds me of selenium toned Azo paper)

As for the midtones and highlights, I mix just the neutral and cool curves—no sepia. My highlights are quite cool, which adds complementary contrast to the shadow values of the print.

Some of my favorite prints are gelatin silver prints made with Printing-Out-Paper that are toned in gold. Gold yields a blue/magenta coolness. If you have seen Atget’s prints, you have seen these tones. Looking at these prints reveals my concept of good image tone--which might not be yours. Even my neutral prints have a hint of warmth in the shadow values.

So I can’t really give you a recipe, but I hope my guidelines are helpful.

My teaching responsibilities are in full bloom, and I am re-writing hundreds of pages of my digital instructional materials. I should be working on my Curves chapter right now! So I will not be able to re-post and answer questions on this forum. But I wish all of you well.

One last thought—I would not have learned what I learned- if I had plugged someone else’s numbers into QTR. I hope I have given you and others a good starting point.

Best,

Richard Lohmann
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Josh-H
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« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2007, 10:57:27 PM »
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It's here at last!

Yes, I have been anxiously waiting for this Harman FB gloss paper right through August, and in fact I ordered two packs of it from three different suppliers this week, so there is advanced faith in the product, if you like. I actually got delivery of some A4 yesterday, and spent all of the evening running some tests. Propped up on my desk as I type is one of the prints from last night, and just to cut a long story short I will say straight off that it is superb.

My tests were on my Epson R2400 with the standard K3 inkset, all in B/W from scanned medium format film, and printed via the Advanced B/W mode on the Epson (I do not use ICC profiles for B/W work). Out of the box, the paper looks and feels very good - it is crisp, has the right sort of "snap", and the surface is very smooth with a nice soft gloss. My first trials were via the rear feed slot as I do with the heavier rag papers, but the gloss feeds perfectly well through the front sheet feed too, as I found out later. On the Epson, there were absolutely no marks on the paper surface from the paper feed mechanism. I also tried feeding a sheet upside down but even that did not mark the paper, so I assume that the problems mentioned in this respect can only apply to certain HP printers.

I am fortunate in that I still have a large archive of my own silver gelatine darkroom prints, many of them on the old Ilford Galerie graded paper, for comparison with inkjet prints. My first test prints used the paper setting as recommended by Harman for the R2400 and set to "neutral", which produced quite a cool-looking print. Toned to "warm" and printed with the dark curve in the ABW mode, the prints on the Harman FB Gloss are uncannily close in almost every respect to the old Galerie prints.

The nearest paper to my ideal in the recent past was the Innova Ultra Smooth Gloss 285gsm, which I have used extensively. In my opinion, the Harman is superior in all respects - it has a nicer gloss, better surface texture, and most importantly better shadow detail. In fact, the Harman has much better shadow detail and as good or better highlight separation than any of the recent fibre-base glossy papers, according to my tests with two very tricky negatives last night. Bronzing with the K3 inkset is minimal, but there is inevitably still some gloss differential - however Harman have got the surface gloss of the paper itself very close to natural gloss of the K3 inks. The only downside I have found so far is that the surface is quite delicate and easily marked, as others have noted. Not as delicate as the Harman FB Matt paper, to be fair, but you will still have to be careful when handling and mounting the print.

I really hope this paper will be a winner for Harman, because I can see that a lot of thought, time and craft have gone into it. This could be the media that makes glossy B/W printing on an inkjet printer no longer the poor relation of the darkroom.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the feedback John.

The Harman gloss is not yet available in Australia but I have ordered 3 packets of the A3+ size - they should arrive early next month.

Very much looking forward to this paper.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 10:58:07 PM by JHolko » Logged

POAH
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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2007, 12:02:41 PM »
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I got mine yesterday (from speed graphic)  and printed some A4 sized prints today with my R2400. B&W where scanned MF negs while colour was a mixture of studio and car shots.

Paper is a creamy colour like epson premium gloss while the texture is smoother than other fibre base gloss papers that I've tried (permajet & fotospeed). The paper is also a lot more flexable and does not curl so you can use the normal paper feed with no head hitting. I've not compared the prints to my normal gloss paper but the certainly made a good impression with the images having a nice pop to them. I'd probably not print colour with this paper purely because its so dam expensive (although buying 3 test packs is cheaper than the 15 sheet A4 pack). I've used the FB matt version and really like that for B&W prints and would use that over anything else I have. The only other paper I would use is permjet's delta matt fibre which is great for behind glass in both colour and B&W. I used ABW for B&W and the harman profiel for colour which seems spot on
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John R Smith
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« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2007, 02:35:47 AM »
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Eric

I did a bit more printing on the new Harman over the weekend. I also checked through the sheets in the other 3 boxes of A4 which I have, and as far as I can tell at this stage QC seems very good. With the Harman Matt FB I have never had a bad sheet so far. I agree with you that Innova is a bit shaky in this respect.

John
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« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2007, 07:52:15 AM »
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I'll have a major review here later this week.

This is the paper we've been waiting for!

Michael
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Michael -

Any suggestions for settings on the IPF5000 for this paper?  Do you have profiles?  The Harman web site does not have profiles for this printer.

Thanks,
Kevin
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neil snape
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2007, 12:12:20 PM »
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I hope to have some of this paper soon too.
The new director (France) from Hahnemuhle dropped by last week to give me some samples of a new Bamboo fibre paper which I already profiled and ran through the Z3100. It has a higher definition than PR308 and a more refined gamut. Hahnemuhle are also already making samples of a Baryta paper too which I will try out very soon on the Z as well. both new media types are both roll and sheet if I listened well.
I took apart the rollers on the Z3100 the other day and see that it would be possible to swap them out with something else. I might even have to try to run without them, but I'd rather do that on a prototype....
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JLK
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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2007, 02:20:35 PM »
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I hope to have some of this paper soon too.
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Neil,

If you get some in, would you run a sheet or two through the DJ 130 and see what you think?

Thanks!

Jim
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