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Author Topic: New Hasselblad back  (Read 21038 times)
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2007, 02:44:22 PM »
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Maybe Hasselblad could license the AF system from Canon...
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TechTalk
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2007, 03:52:11 PM »
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Now I don't normally reply on the MF board but I do my fair share of lurking... I must say TechTalk, you come across as disingenuous. It's almost as if your being paid by HasselBlad to take up for them. I have never seen a poster/photographer take up for a maker with as much zest as you have. Your subtle/not-so-subtle attacks on those who disagree with your idolation is bringing the level of quality discussion down a notch.
Which is rather disheartening for us peeking over the MFDB fence. I think we all want the best out of our equipment and as such take time out of our schedules to congregate on these types of forums.

That said, guys keep up the conversation, as I will now recuse myself from this particular debate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I don't feel that any tools that we use to take images are worthy of being idolized or demonized. They're just tools and should be compared and discussed for their relative advantages and disadvantages in a fair, accurate and honest way. I admire Leaf, Phase One, Sinar, Rollei, Mamiya, Hasselblad and many other manufacturers for trying hard to give us a wide variety of tools to choose from and advance the technology that we use.

That said, I have seen Hasselblad as a company attacked with a good deal of contempt by some. If it were another brand or product being treated this way, I'd be happy to try to share my perspective on the relative merits of what I believe they are trying to achieve with their products and what the technological or business limitations are they face.

I have no problem with constructive criticism of products or their parent company. But the assumption by some that Hasselblad is a company run by people that don't care about the industry they're in, churning out second-rate products and attempting to deceive the buying public is in my opinion false and worth countering. If you think that I'm exaggerating the degree of hostlity displayed by some, I respect your right to that opinion. I'd be happy to counter similar attitudes toward any other company in this position.

I hope that we see in the future all kinds of new features and improvements from all of the current suppliers and new companies as well. I'll look forward to seeing what deveolps and not display any dismissive contempt for their efforts. A company or product that fails to do what I think they should in one area doesn't diminsh their efforts in every other area.

Hey, I love photography. I'd just like to see more light and less heat when discussing it.
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TechTalk
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2007, 04:04:25 PM »
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Maybe Hasselblad could license the AF system from Canon...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A great suggestion! It makes sense to buy existing components from a mass market product and apply that to low volume products. It makes economic sense.

The one limitation might be that the image area is so much larger in medium-format system. This might give you an array of multi-points, but all near the center of the field.

Still–it's a constructive idea to build on.
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psvedberg
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2007, 04:08:31 PM »
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Maybe Hasselblad could license the AF system from Canon...
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No no no please not!   Multiple focus points YES please, but the accuracy of the AF (H3D-31) blows me off every time when I come home and process my files. And recomposing is no longer a problem! Ever. I don't know how they do it or whats the case with other MF systems, but Canon AF (5D and 1Dsmk2) are soo unimpressive in comparison when it comes to actually checking the files and see if the focus is where I locked it. Im I really the only one who have lots of out of focus shots (among the tic-sharp ones yes ofcourse) after a days Canon/35mm shooting?  Maybe I need to calibrate my whole system, it hits me now and then.... But when do I have the time to stay without all my 35mm gear for like a week or three ..?

I hate the slowness (that is: compared to the fast Canon AF) in the H3D when focusing, but when it's locked - it damn is there!  

// Patrik
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thsinar
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2007, 05:33:34 PM »
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Just as an information:

Sinar s using the OLED technology for the eMotion since the begining (2 years).

Thierry

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Hasselblad skipped that generation of LCD panel in the CF back series and H3D and used OLED technology instead.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2007, 05:51:42 PM »
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That said, I have seen Hasselblad as a company attacked with a good deal of contempt by some. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well blad hinted at thier wide lense and then made it not available to sinar leaf or phase owners who had a big 'cross system investment'

At the same time on thier website they had a great speil about backward compatitbility

So we felt conned by that

Then they annouced a full frame camera - it turned out to be that they had shrunk the camera to fit 1.1 chips

We felt confused by that

One has to wonder who has contempt for who?


Like thier current claim - "the Best DSLR" - b*llocks - it a good slr in certain conditions (about 20% of conditions that DSLRs are regularly used in?)

Mainly it is thier information and language rather than thier products that annoys people.

Anyway IMO the H system - even with an indy back - is still the best MF solution

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2007, 05:51:53 PM »
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That's excatly the point!

Thierry

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The one limitation might be that the image area is so much larger in medium-format system. This might give you an array of multi-points, but all near the center of the field.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140798\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2007, 10:40:08 PM »
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Maybe Hasselblad could license the AF system from Canon...
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If I recall correctly, Minolta was/is involved in the H system for auto-focus technology. But as someone else has suggested, maybe anything except the center point requires more expensive upscaling of components.

[Editted] The Pentax 645N AF had three point AF at least; still less than what Pentax was doing in 35mm format SLR's I believe.

Do we want Pentax back in DMF for "200% more AF points"?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 10:45:15 PM by BJL » Logged
Nick-T
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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2007, 11:19:14 PM »
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If I recall correctly, Minolta was/is involved in the H system for auto-focus technology.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You are correct it is a minolta AF unit. Canon or Nikon are not about to license their systems to Hasselblad and in any case the AF points are way to close together. I have suggested to Hasselblad that they put two "35mm" Af units in there to get a good spread and just de-activate half of them..

Nick-T
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Dustbak
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2007, 12:53:27 AM »
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That's excatly the point!

Thierry
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The difference between 24x36 and 48x36 is not that big. I would settle for the Nikon or Canon AF points anyday even if it means that the sensors are more oriented towards the center. It'll be an improvement over the single point, indeed provided it is accurate. I have never had problems with my D200 and that hasn't got the most advanced AF system currently available.

Minolta is known for their antiquated slow AF. Why wouldn't Nikon license their AF technology to Hasselblad? They have also licensed the technology for their number one money-maker to Fuji (D200 to S5). The S5 is even a direct competitor for Nikons own D200.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 12:57:05 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2007, 01:05:55 AM »
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I would settle for the Nikon or Canon AF points [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I disagree they need to be well spread - but five points will do

I always thought nikons were not wide enough even for thier own tiny chip until the D200 and D2X - they are OK now

Surely Blad could just use the thingy they have - even three times would help

But I am convinced the future is a pelicle mirror and analysis of live view leading to at least 22 million different focus points

Man they could just drill a few small holes in the mirror (say 50) and read the DATA hitting the chip

Ok the view would look a bit wierd but it would be a useable tool  

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Dustbak
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2007, 01:11:45 AM »
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Sure that would be ideal if they can make a spread of some (5 is enough to start) cross sensors.

I am talking about having either one center or a layout according to the Nikon/Canon (FF) spread because developing a proprietary MF multipoint AF would be too costly. In that case I still opt for the latter.
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pixjohn
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2007, 02:07:37 AM »
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I played with the new H3D II today and asked the CEO of Hasselblad the very question about having only one focus zone. I was told the reason  is licensing. They are trying to get licensing for the technology with very little luck.  I have to say it might be a closed system but the new back and camera is very impressive.

I shot with the Leaf back and wanted to look into the Hassleblad, but the software only corrects lens falloff with the H camera not on a cambo wide. I am going to stay with what I have, but would really think about the switch if the software had the functiions I need.

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You are correct it is a minolta AF unit. Canon or Nikon are not about to license their systems to Hasselblad and in any case the AF points are way to close together. I have suggested to Hasselblad that they put two "35mm" Af units in there to get a good spread and just de-activate half of them..

Nick-T
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Dustbak
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2007, 02:23:04 AM »
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Now that sounds weird to me. Fuji (effectively the builder of a large part of the H series I thought) has been able to license AF technology from Nikon (amongst others) for a product that is a direct contender with Nikons product.

They would not be able to license part of this technology for a product in a market segment that Nikon is appearing to stay away from?

Sure, I can't tell what everybodies agenda is, it just strikes me as odd.

BTW, I have not yet looked at that very closely because with my system it is less relevant however I thought there is the possibility of custom white shading in Flexcolor. This should perform the same function as the Leaf Custom Gain. That would mean you can also correct lens fall off of non-HC lenses but you have to do a bit more work. Sure people with more knowledge about this can correct me in this?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 02:27:01 AM by Dustbak » Logged
pixjohn
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2007, 02:58:05 AM »
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I can only quote what I was told about the licensing.

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Now that sounds weird to me. Fuji (effectively the builder of a large part of the H series I thought) has been able to license AF technology from Nikon (amongst others) for a product that is a direct contender with Nikons product.

They would not be able to license part of this technology for a product in a market segment that Nikon is appearing to stay away from?

Sure, I can't tell what everybodies agenda is, it just strikes me as odd.

BTW, I have not yet looked at that very closely because with my system it is less relevant however I thought there is the possibility of custom white shading in Flexcolor. This should perform the same function as the Leaf Custom Gain. That would mean you can also correct lens fall off of non-HC lenses but you have to do a bit more work. Sure people with more knowledge about this can correct me in this?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2007, 03:11:39 AM »
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Now I don't normally reply on the MF board but I do my fair share of lurking... I must say TechTalk, you come across as disingenuous. It's almost as if your being paid by HasselBlad to take up for them. I have never seen a poster/photographer take up for a maker with as much zest as you have. Your subtle/not-so-subtle attacks on those who disagree with your idolation is bringing the level of quality discussion down a notch.
Which is rather disheartening for us peeking over the MFDB fence. I think we all want the best out of our equipment and as such take time out of our schedules to congregate on these types of forums.

That said, guys keep up the conversation, as I will now recuse myself from this particular debate.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think he was responding to one particular person, rather than "pushing" Hasselblad. I won't name the person but he's pretty easy to spot. Simply look at almost any post about Hasselblad and he's there, almost the next post, saying something negative. Seems like a personal crusade by that guy rather than objective/constructive criticism. I must admit, it annoys me a lot too.

I'm all for having a go at manufacturers when they deserve it, in fact I had a go at H myself when they messed up a demo for me of the H3D, was about to buy with the cash arranged but was so annoyed I "politely declined". Posted here and got a huge, positive response and I know H were aware of it. Serves them right and hopefully they will tighten up in that area.

But IMO Hasselblad are trying, within the constraints of a narrow user base and high material costs, to be innovative. Their distortion correction software actually works, every time. Flexcolor, although its GUI is awful, also works well and has many good features. H were the first (I think) with a 28mm lens for MFDB and it's a good lens. They also seem to be responsive to user requests - unlike Phase. Michael was annoyed when they went for the closed system - I would have been too - but if they only do that once, and if the benefits are tangible, then maybe that's just about ok. Do it a second time and I imagine that would be curtains, deservedly so.

I'm not a Hasselblad owner though I might be fairly soon. Equally, I might go the Mamiya/Phase, or some other route. Because I'm still fence-sitting I also enjoy the conversation and hope they continue but I also hope personal crusades, for whatever product, are seen to be that and dismissed as worthless.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2007, 03:42:34 AM »
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I think he was responding to one particular person, rather than "pushing" Hasselblad. I won't name the person but he's pretty easy to spot. Simply look at almost any post about Hasselblad and he's there, almost the next post, saying something negative. Seems like a personal crusade by that guy rather than objective/constructive criticism. I must admit, it annoys me a lot too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140917\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who could that be ?

- you can choose to ignore a users posts.

I am pretty harsh on all the MF systems

At least I dont hide behind a anonmyouse cloak. I also have owned both Mamiaya and own an H and shoot a lot of pictures in varied situations because tha magazine I shoot for uses my for everything from horse racing to food so I think I have reasonble user experience

I also use Nikon and work in close co-operation with Canon shooters

In nailing on about the H AF and it has brought some quite interesting info to light IMO about the licensing situation

All the (MF) cameras I have to do battle with but unfortuanately the results are worth it because the images are so cool

I dont think there is anything wrong in teasing companies whos cameras have screens worse than $100 phones, worse AF than $200 P+S cameras and costs higher than decent cars

I am also baffled by the priotiies of camera makers; I never use..
TTL flash
Prgram Metering
etc

I do use
AF
high flash synch  (which rules out mamiya nikon and canon)
wide lenses (which rules out rolei/hy6 at the mo)

And desire lens movements


Blad is two steps away from a great camera IMO and currently the best of the bunch

S
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 04:09:59 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2007, 04:34:25 AM »
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Who could that be ?

All the (MF) cameras I have to do battle with but unfortuanately the results are worth it because the images are so cool

I dont think there is anything wrong in teasing companies whos cameras have screens worse than $100 phones, worse AF than $200 P+S cameras and costs higher than decent cars

I am also baffled by the priotiies of camera makers; I never use..
TTL flash
Prgram Metering
etc

I do use
AF
high flash synch  (which rules out mamiya nikon and canon)
wide lenses (which rules out rolei/hy6 at the mo)

And desire lens movements
Blad is two steps away from a great camera IMO and currently the best of the bunch

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, Sam, it wasn't you! I always enjoy reading your posts. They're beautifully succinct, contain relevant points and I reckon at times they're downright eloquent!

And yes, we should complain about any camera maker who doesn't give us what we want. What else are they here for? I, probably like many of the people who use this great forum, have owned just about every system over the last 20 or so years: I started to list them but then realised I must look like a bit of an equipment nerd. And not only did I own each system, but changed them regularly, often going round in circles. Like, over time, 3 Mamiya RB systems, 2 RZ's, two H's, 3 Rollei's, couple of Bronicas... not to mention 35mm systems. What's all that about! How did I ever find time to take photos? Point is, I kept changing because for me there was always something that suited me a little better on the next system. And then something worthg going back to. The other point I want to make here is that I simply can't afford to do that anymore. I have hesitated more about my next MFD system than just about any other decision I have had to make - including buying houses, cars and asking women to marry me. (Yes, sadly, plural.)

But to keep changing MFD systems would bankrupt me, no question. So this forum, the people on it with their experience of good and bad aspects of whatever, is helping save my business. Which is another reason I don't want some person out for revenge clouding the view.
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bwpuk
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« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2007, 05:28:06 AM »
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Well, Sam, it wasn't you! I always enjoy reading your posts. They're beautifully succinct, contain relevant points and I reckon at times they're downright eloquent!

And yes, we should complain about any camera maker who doesn't give us what we want. What else are they here for? I, probably like many of the people who use this great forum, have owned just about every system over the last 20 or so years: I started to list them but then realised I must look like a bit of an equipment nerd. And not only did I own each system, but changed them regularly, often going round in circles. Like, over time, 3 Mamiya RB systems, 2 RZ's, two H's, 3 Rollei's, couple of Bronicas... not to mention 35mm systems. What's all that about! How did I ever find time to take photos? Point is, I kept changing because for me there was always something that suited me a little better on the next system. And then something worthg going back to. The other point I want to make here is that I simply can't afford to do that anymore. I have hesitated more about my next MFD system than just about any other decision I have had to make - including buying houses, cars and asking women to marry me. (Yes, sadly, plural.)

But to keep changing MFD systems would bankrupt me, no question. So this forum, the people on it with their experience of good and bad aspects of whatever, is helping save my business. Which is another reason I don't want some person out for revenge clouding the view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well like you, I'm hesitating and on the brink of buying a MFDB so I am always reading this part of the forum. Like you I've used most systems over the last twenty years and can tell you that a camera is a lot easier and cheaper to get rid of than an ex-wife !!!

Seriously though, I only give credence to any of the posters here, for and against any product, if they don't hide behind an alias. Lets see posters nail their colours to the mast by posting their web address or work samples to back up their accusations or praises. As a long time Hasselblad user I'm afraid the H system is one of those things that you either love or hate. I personally don't like it and I've really tried to find something in it to admire.  I much prefer Zeiss lenses not the Fuji versions. For me resolution is only one part of the reason to use a lens not the deciding factor.

This is a great forum where people should give their opinions, that's what it's for.  As long as we know where the posters are coming from.

My two cents.

Barrie Watts
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Dustbak
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« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2007, 06:44:25 AM »
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I can only quote what I was told about the licensing.
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Sure, I understand.
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