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Author Topic: Hands-on Report on Hasselblad H3D-II  (Read 18074 times)
RobertJ
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2007, 11:32:51 PM »
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The MF back makers need to learn how to make a screen like the new Nikons have.  Those screens are pure sex.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2007, 10:34:09 AM »
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While Canon, and every other Terry Richardson point-and-shoot companies are using 3 inch LCDs, and probably larger ones soon, these MF companies are crying like a baby, and using 2.2 inch units, and they're looking like fools. They can't see the forest for the trees. The size of the LCD is a BIG DEAL, and so is the quality of it. Not every job has the luxury of being able to shoot tethered, if you're out in a field somewhere and not able to drag a kart and a Honda.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know who buys/design for the MFDB companies but Nikon's new LCD design blows Canon's away. A nice comparison is [a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3/page3.asp]here[/url] (scroll halfway down the page).
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2007, 11:54:07 AM »
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A nice comparison is here (scroll halfway down the page).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd love to see the Phase LCD and the Leaf LCD also photographed side by side, next to this new Nikon LCD.

Maybe then, Yair might think twice about the ads he's running for Leaf.

Because if you saw them side by side, the only thing jumping out of the Leaf's screen might be the customer's hand and middle finger, flipping off the Leaf company for running such ads.

Again, if you're lighting a room, and really needing to see how the light feels, and you don't want to shoot tethered, the quality and size of the LCD is vitally important. I can't stress that enough. I'm not sure any of these companies understand that. And in my opinion, they belittle the fact by running false advertising that is so laughable that it's an affront to most any professional photographer.
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Photomangreg
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 02:25:42 PM »
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I'd love to see the Phase LCD and the Leaf LCD also photographed side by side, next to this new Nikon LCD.

Maybe then, Yair might think twice about the ads he's running for Leaf.

Because if you saw them side by side, the only thing jumping out of the Leaf's screen might be the customer's hand and middle finger, flipping off the Leaf company for running such ads.

Again, if you're lighting a room, and really needing to see how the light feels, and you don't want to shoot tethered, the quality and size of the LCD is vitally important. I can't stress that enough. I'm not sure any of these companies understand that. And in my opinion, they belittle the fact by running false advertising that is so laughable that it's an affront to most any professional photographer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I almost find it unbelievable that I am reading this, if you are going to schlep lights, stands, tripod, grip equipment, camera and lenses, why not bring along a laptop???!!!  You're willing to give your client a second rate file because you're too lazy to bring along a laptop, and then you put your name on the image!!  I guess in time this will help all of us other photographers as you will start losing clients who don't give a damn about how the screen looks, they're going to actually care about the final file!
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TechTalk
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 04:26:32 PM »
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This past Friday I attended the Hasselbald Dealer Summit for the Americas in Santa Monica, CA.

This is a hands-on report from my experience with the camera and my discussions with Hasselblad management:

*Killer App 2
I was shown a new Anti-Moire tool. If this tool works the way that I saw it on all images with the problem, this is a true killer app for Hasselblad. What I saw was amazing in how color moire and pattern moire were eliminated. This is accomplished directly on the raw file - before any raw conversion takes place. What's more, this tool will be able to be used on any legacy .fff files from any Imacon/Hasselblad capture unit.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great report Steve. Thanks for taking the time and effort!

Two questions... 1) How is the anti-moire tool used? A brush? 2) Is the anti-moire tool for dealing with pattern moire a separate tool?
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pprdigital
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 06:02:31 PM »
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Great report Steve. Thanks for taking the time and effort!

Two questions... 1) How is the anti-moire tool used? A brush? 2) Is the anti-moire tool for dealing with pattern moire a separate tool?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is a simple slider - no selections are necessary, and color and pattern moire are removed with this one slider. I don't understand the slider concept if it works as well as it seemed to - either you want it gone or not. But it does apply itself to the raw image seamlessly and also can be used on legacy .fff files.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 06:37:23 PM »
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There is a simple slider - no selections are necessary, and color and pattern moire are removed with this one slider. I don't understand the slider concept if it works as well as it seemed to - either you want it gone or not. But it does apply itself to the raw image seamlessly and also can be used on legacy .fff files.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Reconsulting my notes - the anti-moire tool will actually be a simple on/off - no slider.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2007, 07:40:04 PM »
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Captureshop has this feature built-in since ages, "Software Anti-Moiré": a slider which works like a filter over the WHOLE image. You have to be carefull not to use it too strongly and at the maximum, since it might de-saturate some colours (I guess this will be the same with this new Hasselblad feature).

Best regards,
Thierry

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There is a simple slider - no selections are necessary, and color and pattern moire are removed with this one slider. I don't understand the slider concept if it works as well as it seemed to - either you want it gone or not. But it does apply itself to the raw image seamlessly and also can be used on legacy .fff files.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2007, 07:46:51 PM »
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Captureshop has this feature built-in since ages, "Software Anti-Moiré": a slider which works like a filter over the WHOLE image. You have to be carefull not to use it too strongly and at the maximum, since it might de-saturate some colours (I guess this will be the same with this new Hasselblad feature).

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,

Does this remove pattern moire as well?

Steve Hendrix has seen both. Are they similar Steve?
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thsinar
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2007, 07:53:02 PM »
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Yes, this software tool is meant to remove Moiré

ADDENDUM: sorry, I misread the question. Yes, there are basically 2 tools to remove either "colour" Moiré or  "pattern" Moiré (Luminance Moiré).

The "pattern" Anti-Moiré tool is a harware anti-moiré feature which can be set with a slider, acting like a "softening" (or anti-aliasing) filter.

Best,
Thierry

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Thierry,

Does this remove pattern moire as well?

Steve Hendrix has seen both. Are they similar Steve?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142090\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 09:20:33 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2007, 11:21:39 AM »
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Yes, this software tool is meant to remove Moiré

ADDENDUM: sorry, I misread the question. Yes, there are basically 2 tools to remove either "colour" Moiré or  "pattern" Moiré (Luminance Moiré).

The "pattern" Anti-Moiré tool is a harware anti-moiré feature which can be set with a slider, acting like a "softening" (or anti-aliasing) filter.

Best,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While the Siinar tools can be effective, they work in a completely different way than the Hasselblad tool. I will certainly do some comparative testing. But what I saw from the Hasselblad Phocus moire remover was very impressive.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2007, 11:23:31 AM »
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There is also something very important I neglected to mention with regard to the H3D-II.

The H3D-II is shipping now. Not seven months from the announcement. Now.

We expect our demo units within a week.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2007, 11:45:08 AM »
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Yes, this software tool is meant to remove Moiré

ADDENDUM: sorry, I misread the question. Yes, there are basically 2 tools to remove either "colour" Moiré or  "pattern" Moiré (Luminance Moiré).

The "pattern" Anti-Moiré tool is a harware anti-moiré feature which can be set with a slider, acting like a "softening" (or anti-aliasing) filter.

Best,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

with all due respect...phase, leaf, sinar, hasselblad,....they have all always had some kind of pattern/moire sliders/button......the question is how well do they work? do they work on raw?.....after reading steve's report i was excited, it sounded like a really new and improved solution to a really old problem.....now it seems like steve isn't so sure and it is just a on/off button....not sure how that is supposed to work without color desaturation and all the other problems we have seen with the software solutions so far.....
i guess we will have to wait and see....but i am very scetical that a simple on/off switch can solve this.....
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TechTalk
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2007, 07:42:48 PM »
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not sure how that is supposed to work without color desaturation and all the other problems we have seen with the software solutions so far.....
i guess we will have to wait and see....but i am very scetical that a simple on/off switch can solve this.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We will have to wait and see.

As stated by Steve and by Hasselblad, it is a one click operation that works directly on the RAW data before any RAW conversion takes place. [a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/phocus.aspx]Link to Phocus[/url]

One passing thought on how software might be able to automatically detect and correct an unwanted pattern, like moire, is by pattern recognition. Work is being done in this area. Image Correction Pattern Recognition Link

I have NO idea what method is being used in what Hasselblad is developing. Based on Steve's report, I'll look forward to seeing the results.
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2007, 02:08:20 AM »
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So it is, Paul, there can be no miracle with "Pattern" Moiré.

Since this kind of Moiré affects the Luminance channel (also called Luminance Moiré), it is therefore not that easy to remove this kind of Moiré simply by "bluring" without affecting the overall sharpness.

Colour Moiré is a completely other issue and can be dealt with more "easily". But desaturation of colours is here the danger, if applied too strongly.

While "Colour Moiré" appears only in 1-shot images (not in multishot mode), "Pattern Moiré" can appear in both 1- and multishot captures.

It would be interesting to know how this new software from Hasselblad deals with both types of Moiré with the same tool.

If anybody knows, please feel free to post.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry



Quote
with all due respect...phase, leaf, sinar, hasselblad,....they have all always had some kind of pattern/moire sliders/button......the question is how well do they work? do they work on raw?.....after reading steve's report i was excited, it sounded like a really new and improved solution to a really old problem.....now it seems like steve isn't so sure and it is just a on/off button....not sure how that is supposed to work without color desaturation and all the other problems we have seen with the software solutions so far.....
i guess we will have to wait and see....but i am very scetical that a simple on/off switch can solve this.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 02:09:54 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2007, 10:58:24 AM »
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So it is, Paul, there can be no miracle with "Pattern" Moiré.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So, if it does really work the way that Steve described, in the sample he saw, you will be describing that here as a miracle?

I'm afraid there may be some if Hasselblad developed a tool that removed color and pattern moire and at the same time made your morning coffee, freshened your breath and cured cancer–they still wouldn't see any value in it. (You, of course, would not be in that group Thierry)

Time, as always, will tell.
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pss
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2007, 08:10:01 PM »
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So, if it does really work the way that Steve described, in the sample he saw, you will be describing that here as a miracle?

I'm afraid there may be some if Hasselblad developed a tool that removed color and pattern moire and at the same time made your morning coffee, freshened your breath and cured cancer–they still wouldn't see any value in it. (You, of course, would not be in that group Thierry)

Time, as always, will tell.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hey...all it needs to do is get rid of moire..color and pattern.....not sure about you, but i have lived and dealt with this problem through several backs, cameras and manufacturers....with sometimes pretty great results...and i can say that if hasselblad did all of a sudden come up with a one button solution, it woul be a miracle....

the real question is: if this software solution is so smart that it can tell unwanted pattern from wanted and correct for different colors in different images differently and does all this intelligently and well.....why a button? who would want moire?
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thsinar
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2007, 09:24:40 PM »
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I wouldn't, since it is certainly possible to have such a tool "filtering" on BOTH Moiré types but then, is there an effect on general quality/sharpness/colours, etc ..., and how much?

I think it needs to be tested, as Steve mentioned.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
So, if it does really work the way that Steve described, in the sample he saw, you will be describing that here as a miracle?

I'm afraid there may be some if Hasselblad developed a tool that removed color and pattern moire and at the same time made your morning coffee, freshened your breath and cured cancer–they still wouldn't see any value in it. (You, of course, would not be in that group Thierry)

Time, as always, will tell.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2007, 09:53:48 PM »
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hey...all it needs to do is get rid of moire..color and pattern.....not sure about you, but i have lived and dealt with this problem through several backs, cameras and manufacturers....with sometimes pretty great results...and i can say that if hasselblad did all of a sudden come up with a one button solution, it woul be a miracle....

the real question is: if this software solution is so smart that it can tell unwanted pattern from wanted and correct for different colors in different images differently and does all this intelligently and well.....why a button? who would want moire?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's really amazing that the RAW conversion software that we use is able to build a full RGB image from RAW data that is missing 75% of the needed red and blue information and half of the green. The ability of software to supply 2/3 of the color data in our images is remarkable, but imperfect. This is why we like to be able to store and work with untouched RAW data. No one setup or solution is right 100% of the time for every image for everyone.

The answer for why have an on/off button for any tool at our disposal is to preserve the RAW data. If the new anti-moire tool is effective in 70% or 80% or 90% of images, you would still want to be able to turn it off for those images where it is not effective.

Plus, if there were no on/off button to show before and after results. Some would say the moire was never there to begin with and accuse Hasselblad of insane marketing hype.
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TechTalk
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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2007, 10:04:01 PM »
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I wouldn't, since it is certainly possible to have such a tool "filtering" on BOTH Moiré types but then, is there an effect on general quality/sharpness/colours, etc ..., and how much?

I think it needs to be tested, as Steve mentioned.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You're correct of course. It does need to be tested and on a variety of images.

We wouldn't want to dismiss someting as impossible until we've seen it–would we? I wouldn't want to assume that however it works, that it is equally effective on every image.
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