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Author Topic: Finishing Canvas - Spraying or Rolling?  (Read 24722 times)
SeanPuckett
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2007, 08:27:46 PM »
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Doug,

Great shot, worthy of the print size.

I see some air bubbles under the laminate -- mostly in the low lying valleys of the canvas weave, but some larger areas too -- especially in LamCloseup2 and LAMOblique-Centre, and fairly consistently in other areas on the print.  The effect reduces contrast especially in dark areas of the print.  This is the same result I got when I tried a 3.0mil PSA laminate on canvas a few weeks ago.  Since you're getting it too, it's probably a systemic issue with PSA on canvas.  I couldn't fix it even with full body pressure on a 2" brayer.

My hope with the thin hot lamination process is that the plastic will soften and deform to meet the canvas even in the low areas of the weave, thus preserving gamut and DMAX on the entire surface.  A hot roller laminator might be able to make it work, a hardbed screw or hydraulic press would probably be able to do it, and a vacuum hot press would certainly be able to do it.  When the time comes, I'll probably take something down to DryTac and have them prove that their stuff can do what I want -- or not.

I may be able to get some shots of my canvas experiments up in the next day or two.  Thanks very much for sharing, Doug -- it's incredibly helpful to be able to see!

-s
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2007, 08:32:12 PM »
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Floor polish.  Interesting.   

I think most of us are printing with pigment inks, aren't we?  For art prints that are expected to stay indoors I would think that the actual UV protection probably isn't as important as the physical protection.

I've uploaded some pictures of a laminated print to pbase.  I don't know how much they will show but it kept me from home-improvement work so it was a great success already.

The titles should be fairly self-explanatory.   The file marked "LAMTexture" is an extreme side-lit example that shows the texture of the laminate itself in all the others I was doing a few minor things to minimize reflections like tilting the subject down a few degrees (as it would be on a wall).    I also included a pose of my lovely wife's legs holding up the whole picture to give an idea to the scale.  All the files marked "LAMxxx" are from this picture.  Note that many are from extreme angles (~ 120 degrees) to show the amount of canvas texture that shows through and as such may look kind of murky.   I can only see the laminate itself in specular lighting and it's pretty much invisible otherwise, as are thinner coats of the acrylic when viewed more or less straight on.

Strictly to give some perspective (and not to be used for the purpose of wagering)  I took a couple pictures of two other pictures I had kicking around.  These are NOT on the same canvas.  The laminated print is on Breathing Color and the coated ones are both Epson PP.  The epson is less white and more textured.   

The two pictures beginning with "GOLD" are from the Golden UVLS varnish applied ineptly by brush (an early experiment and should  be tossed).  It is a smaller version of the large canvas and shows about how good I could get with brush or roller application.  I was not happy with the result and wouldn't consider it salable. 

The last two are marked "Spray" and are unfortunately of a different picture. I believe the product was Clear shield but I am not 100% sure and it could be BC or Golden.  It's very hard to tell them apart after they have dried.   At any rate it was applied with a very cheap HVLP gun and has two coats.    As an example it shows about the best I was able to achieve with a water based product.    I don't think the results are quite as good as the laminate (and it was a much smaller print at 12x48 vs 30x78) but it would certainly be salable.

Sorry for the long winded explanation......

http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/lamsamples

I'm not trying to keep anyone in suspense and will pass along the details on the lamination product as soon as I can get them.

Thanks
Doug
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Hey Doug -
Thanks for the work of posting the closeups.  It's still pretty hard to tell what's what, but there is an idea at least.
The whole thing image (http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/image/86402045) does show the print is definitely snappy snappy.  My question is about how stiff it made the print and did that affect stretching it over  the stretcher bars?  I'm guessing it had to be a thin laminate like 1.7mil - or greater.  That's what will be interesting - knowing those details.

Thanks again-

Mark
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 08:34:34 PM by Mark Lindquist » Logged

Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2007, 08:38:38 PM »
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My hope with the thin hot lamination process is that the plastic will soften and deform to meet the canvas even in the low areas of the weave, thus preserving gamut and DMAX on the entire surface.  A hot roller laminator might be able to make it work, a hardbed screw or hydraulic press would probably be able to do it, and a vacuum hot press would certainly be able to do it.  When the time comes, I'll probably take something down to DryTac and have them prove that their stuff can do what I want -- or not.
-s
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Sean - I'll be interested in seeing that test too.  I'm concerned about color shift with the hotter laminates, but hey gotta try.  I'm going to see if I can get some testing done next week as well.

Have you ever experimented with liquid laminating?

I've heard the expensive machines do a great job ---

Nobody around here has one though.

Mark
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 08:39:03 PM by Mark Lindquist » Logged

SeanPuckett
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2007, 08:55:18 PM »
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Mark (maybe we should just go down to the coffee shop),

I drymount many prints using Hot Press(brand) Archival Tissue at 190F in a softbed press for 60-90 seconds, and the prints from the HP z3100 don't shift noticeably in colour.  I haven't profiled before/after, but over at least a hundred prints, many of which I am intimately familiar with (and fairly demanding about) the colour of, I see no perceptible difference.  Since the low temp laminate I'm looking at also is rated for 180-190F, I don't see heat as the gating factor in success.  Your inkset may vary, blah, blah, blah.  

I will indeed post more when I get some canvas hot lamination tests done.

-s
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DougMorgan
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2007, 09:36:52 PM »
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Sean:

I see what you mean about the air in the pores of the canvas.  Note that the tree branch is not air bubbles and is the colour of the bark.    I would think though that it would be part of the process for any lamination unless there was so much adhesive (or way too much heat)  to turn the coating liquid.   With the epson inks at least heat is bad.  

While I'm sure there is some effect from the laminate I don't think it's obvious looking at the print with the naked eye.  In our tests we've actually noticed too much contrast in the dark areas, dark greens looking black for example, and have had to lighten a few prints considerably to closer match laminated canvas to paper prints: The matte canvas is very dull straight out of the printer as I'm sure you know and changes dramatically when coated or laminated.   As a further note these are also taken from angles greater than 90 degrees and thus look low contrast I think the straight on pics don't show nearly as much of an effect.

Unfortunately the only heat laminated print I have on hand is a reject art paper to foam core and I don't think it will tell us anything.  I managed to sell the last of the heat laminated canvas prints I had.  I didn't really look at them beyond the obvious colour changes but I wouldn't expect it to be any better.  The last batch was done in a vacuum press at low temperature.  In addition to the deal-breaking colour shifts the gloss laminate was very sparkly and not to my liking while the semi-gloss one seemed a little murky.   And no, I don't recall the name of the laminating machine or laminate itself.  It's a personal problem and I have trouble with the grandkids names as well  even though I only have three.  

As a comparison one of the things I do not like about the water based coatings is that they tend to fill the weave of the canvas too much -- the pictures marked "spray" for example should have more texture visible since the underlaying canvas has more texture than the laminated canvas but does not appear that way.  The mineral spirit varnishes seem better in this respect.

Mark:

The water based acrylic prints are much stiffer as I think the coating ends up far thicker.   Unfortunately I think this is just the nature of the beast as I think it takes a couple fairly heavy coats to get an even finish.   I haven't actually stretched any of the laminated prints myself as they are all now being farmed out for cheaper than we could do them ourselves.   I asked the local stretcher who did a couple for a recent art show for me and he said they were easy.  I've stretched enough of the coated ones to know that it is not easy to stretch those by hand.   Most of ours are now stretched in the same city as the lamination, which is also the subject of that particular panorama, as it is much cheaper to ship them rolled and some of the galleries want them unstretched.

Everything is a compromise though and I am always open to trying something new if there's a chance it will make things better/faster/cheaper/quicker.  A year in a fibreglass shop with a chopper gun leaking catalyst a long time ago left me ultra sensitive to certain chemicals as well, super glue being one, so I like the fact that there is no exposure to anything.    At the moment the laminate fits with the market plan and the clients seem to like it.

If you folks think of any sort of camera trick to better illustrate the product I can accommodate.   I'll post more details as soon as I get them....
 
Doug
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 09:45:06 PM by DougMorgan » Logged
Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2007, 10:08:34 PM »
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Mark:
The water based acrylic prints are much stiffer as I think the coating ends up far thicker.   Unfortunately I think this is just the nature of the beast as I think it takes a couple fairly heavy coats to get an even finish.   I haven't actually stretched any of the laminated prints myself as they are all now being farmed out for cheaper than we could do them ourselves.   I asked the local stretcher who did a couple for a recent art show for me and he said they were easy.  I've stretched enough of the coated ones to know that it is not easy to stretch those by hand.   Most of ours are now stretched in the same city as the lamination, which is also the subject of that particular panorama, as it is much cheaper to ship them rolled and some of the galleries want them unstretched.

Everything is a compromise though and I am always open to trying something new if there's a chance it will make things better/faster/cheaper/quicker.  A year in a fibreglass shop with a chopper gun leaking catalyst a long time ago left me ultra sensitive to certain chemicals as well, super glue being one, so I like the fact that there is no exposure to anything.    At the moment the laminate fits with the market plan and the clients seem to like it.

If you folks think of any sort of camera trick to better illustrate the product I can accommodate.   I'll post more details as soon as I get them....
 
Doug
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Thanks Doug - yeah, man - anything cyanoacrylate is murder - can give you heart palpitations too...

Knowing the laminate is less thick than the dual coat GG2 finish is good - I'm definitely headed for the sign printers Monday    

Not sure if other closeups will help as just doing it will make a lot of difference - but thanks so much for what you've already done.

If Sean is right that the Z3100 inkset doesn't shift noticeably with hot lam - that could be an area for me to experiment with.  Others absolutely swear by the sprayed Glamour Gloss coatings and if I can find someone locally to do it I might investigate that as well.  We definitely have quality now with rolling, but it is thickish and definitely not fun.  

Mark
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DougMorgan
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2007, 10:24:27 PM »
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Mark:

To be fair I should add that with all my negative comments about the heat lamination it may very well be the operators I've dealt with.  I've had paper prints drymounted, I assume with heat, without incident by one of the local picture framing outfits for years but two different places have wrecked prints laminating them in the last year or so.   I do live outside of a small (125K) city famous for sub-par wages (sunshine tax they call it) and it may very well be that the problem is low skill levels, certainly they don't seem old enough to have the experience someone like Sean seems to have  

I am not aware of any particular heat problems with ultra chrome ink compared to the HP pigment inks (or the canon) and the only difference I've read about is better water resistance which shouldn't make any difference for this.

Someone local here was recently raving about BC as well but I honestly can't tell much of a difference once they are applied.    With the same person doing the application I would bet even the Future would look the same.  I think Golden's application advice is better than what BC used to post but I haven't checked back in quite a while so it may have been updated since then.  Clear shield makes a version specifically for spraying but I'm not sure what the difference is over the brush on.

Doug
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 11:11:47 PM by DougMorgan » Logged
Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2007, 10:48:36 PM »
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Mark:

To be fair I should add that with all my negative comments about the heat lamination it may very well be the operators I've dealt with.  I've had paper prints drymounted, I assume with heat, without incident by one of the local picture framing outfits for years but two different places have wrecked prints laminating them in the last year or so.   I do live outside of a small (125K) city famous for sub-par wages (sunshine tax they call it) and it may very well be that the problem is low skill levels, certainly they don't seem old enough to have the experience someone like Sean seems to have  

I am not aware of any particular heat problems with ultra chrome ink and compared to the HP pigment inks the only difference I've read about is better water resistance which shouldn't make any difference for this.

Someone local here was recently raving about BC as well but I honestly can't tell much of a difference once they are applied.    With the same person doing the application I would bet even the Future would look the same.  I think Golden's application advice is better than what BC used to post but I haven't checked back in quite a while so it may have been updated since then.  Clear shield makes a version specifically for spraying but I'm not sure what the difference is over the brush on.

Doug
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I think I'm just going to get one of these and be done with it:    
[a href=\"http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp]http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp[/url]

Mark
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DougMorgan
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2007, 11:02:07 PM »
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I think I'm just going to get one of these and be done with it:   
http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp

Mark
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I'm looking at a new printer soon and will be too poor for anything like that.   I'm also a panorama printer so even the larger one would be too short for the bigger pieces.  98 inches?  It's a toy!

Doug
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2007, 08:51:03 PM »
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Kapco has got something they call a canvas laminate.

https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html

I really hate to buy a whole roll just to try it. I guess I will have to get after them again about samples.

Doyle
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2007, 08:23:34 AM »
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Kapco has got something they call a canvas laminate.

https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html

I really hate to buy a whole roll just to try it. I guess I will have to get after them again about samples.

Doyle
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Interesting - thanks.  3 mil is pretty thick though...

Mark
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« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2007, 07:03:12 PM »
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Hi Doug,

I live in the Lower Mainland and just got the Z3100ps 44".  Who do you use for the cold laminates?  I haven't tried printing on canvas yet but having someone do a cold laminate would be a great resource

thanks!

Stewart
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DougMorgan
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« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2007, 07:40:34 PM »
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Hi Stewart

It's through Artistat on West Hastings (www.artistat.net).   Their invoice says Satinex which I believe is a trademarked name for MediaShield Satinex but I'm waiting for confirmation.    I was going to wait before I had the full details but my understanding now is that it's a roll fed system that uses at least one heated roller.  More details to come.....

They should have about 16 kg's of canvas to do for us at the moment.  I deal with them through my guy in Vancouver (I'm based outside Kelowna) and from what I've seen they are very fast and do an excellent job.   I have no other connection with them and have never been there in person.

I'm looking for a larger printer myself but past experience with HP leaves me on the cool side.  On the other hand Epson seems to have fallen a full step behind.   And then there's Canon but I think the model I'd be interested in hasn't even been announced yet (8100).  Where did you buy the HP?  Not sure there's even a dealer up here.

Doug


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Hi Doug,

I live in the Lower Mainland and just got the Z3100ps 44".  Who do you use for the cold laminates?  I haven't tried printing on canvas yet but having someone do a cold laminate would be a great resource

thanks!

Stewart
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« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 08:08:50 PM by DougMorgan » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2007, 09:39:00 AM »
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I'm looking for a larger printer myself but past experience with HP leaves me on the cool side.  On the other hand Epson seems to have fallen a full step behind.   And then there's Canon but I think the model I'd be interested in hasn't even been announced yet (8100).  Where did you buy the HP?  Not sure there's even a dealer up here.

Doug
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Hi Doug,

There are local dealers in Vancouver but I got a better deal online, PM me if you want their contact info.  They're based out of the east coast.  I also have a paper dealer just across the street from me and I'm trying to get a smaller roll of canvas to try.

Regards,

Stu
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2007, 09:52:30 AM »
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I had a trial piece cold laminated yesterday with a 3 Mil Satin and it dulled the colors down sufficiently to make me doubt it very much.

I looked at the gloss laminate on one of their samples and it looked like an icky shiny banner sign.

When I showed them a print with Breathing color properly applied they freaked out and asked me what I was doing there (why would I want to even try anything else).

After explaining the issues, I wanted out of there.

A local framing shop also wanted to know "how to" with the rolled Glamour Gloss finish.

The Glamour Gloss is tricky to get technique down just right via rolling, but those who have seen it have been very impressed.  Enough to be asking all kinds of questions.

Oh well.  Back to the drawing board on this.

Laminating may be good for some, but I found the local sign shop not so crazy about experimenting - can't say that I blame them.

M
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2007, 11:10:59 AM »
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Well I decided to put in another request for a sample or short roll of the Kapco product.

Doyle
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DougMorgan
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« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2007, 11:28:44 AM »
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Mark and Stewart --- I sent you both PM's but they do not show up in the "sent" folder.  Let me know if I need to resend them ---- Thanks Doug Morgan
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Mark Lindquist
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« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2007, 12:45:47 PM »
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Mark and Stewart --- I sent you both PM's but they do not show up in the "sent" folder.  Let me know if I need to resend them ---- Thanks Doug Morgan
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Doug - got your PM - reply sent.

I found an interesting HP link that lists recommendations for laminates with their products.
The Drytac Satinex is listed in many applications, but this page does not mention canvas and a laminate:
[a href=\"http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/supplies/laminates.html?viewAll=1]http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/su....html?viewAll=1[/url]

Thanks-

Mark
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« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2007, 12:49:47 PM »
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Hi Folks:

I don't want to drag this off topic, but just an FYI:

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It's always handy getting a WHMIS chart for a product, because even "water-based" products can contain hazards.

When I worked on wildlife rabies research (~16 years), one of the products we used for disinfection didn't HAVE a WHMIS chart even though it was listed as potentially carcinogenic because it was lumped under the same category as household bleach...

Mike.
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« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2007, 11:44:40 PM »
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For those interested in the lamination solution, the picture samples I provided above are from a Seal Image 6000 laminator.   Apparently the laminate itself is not the Satinex as I indicated but another brand that they decline to identify.  Trade secrets I guess.  At any rate I'm happy with it and they do a great job.

Here's the lamintor itself:  http://www.visutech.com/Seallaminator.html.

Good luck and hope everyone has a happy thanksgiving and remembers the true meaning of the day, Martin Frobisher's thanks for surviving his third voyage to the new world........
Doug
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