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Author Topic: How does Aptus 75 compare to Sinar eMotion 75 ?  (Read 20594 times)
Bernd B.
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« on: September 29, 2007, 07:03:27 AM »
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How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?

I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 07:39:27 AM »
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Others will be able to answer this better than I can but...

The e75 has interchangeable mounts, 6 GB of built-in solid-state memory, and an OLED display.

The Leaf's display is larger, afaik.
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Bernd B.
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 07:48:17 AM »
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Others will be able to answer this better than I can but...

The e75 has interchangeable mounts, 6 GB of built-in solid-state memory, and an OLED display.

The Leaf's display is larger, afaik.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The thing that interests me first is image characteristics (color rendition) and noise at higher iso. If you can live with the smaller display and like the interchangeable adapters instead, are the results more or less the same or does the Aptus have the edge? The Aptus 75s is a bit faster, but one picture every 1,5 sec. as the eMotion 75 offers sounds fast enough for me.
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thsinar
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 07:58:13 AM »
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Dear Bernd,

Concerning the cooling fan not available on the eMotion: the eMotion series have purposely no fan built-in since they have an "intelligent" power management. The CCD and the rest of the electronics are "off" when no image is taken, and avoid this way to get heated up.

So far I know, the Aptus has no active cooling system (Peltier Element).

I would suggest you to make a comparison side-by-side, concerning the ISO behaviour: you should then notice that shooting at ISO 100 with the eMotion 75 will most probably be the same as shooting at ISO 200 with another back, if not more. With all the comparisons I have done so far, this was the case, that the eMotion backs are at least 1 full stop more sensitive (lower ISO setting for the same exposure/density under the same light conditions). But again, try this out yourself with a side-by-side test. Then only you should be able to compare the noise level and behaviour of the backs.

I am at your disposal for any other question or request.

Best regards,
Thierry

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How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?

I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:12:34 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
Mike W
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 08:09:44 AM »
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interchangeable mounts?

Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?

grtz

Mike
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thsinar
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 08:13:45 AM »
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Dear Mike,

Yes, all Sinarbacks do offer interchangeable adapters and since the begining. All you need to do when changing the camera platform is to change the adapter plate by unscrewing 3 to 4 screws (depending which back type) and mount the new adapter. An operation which is done in less than 2 minutes.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
interchangeable mounts?

Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?

grtz

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2007, 09:13:37 AM »
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I would suggest you to make a comparison side-by-side, concerning the ISO behaviour: you should then notice that shooting at ISO 100 with the eMotion 75 will most probably be the same as shooting at ISO 200 with another back, if not more. With all the comparisons I have done so far, this was the case, that the eMotion backs are at least 1 full stop more sensitive (lower ISO setting for the same exposure/density under the same light conditions). But again, try this out yourself with a side-by-side test. Then only you should be able to compare the noise level and behaviour of the backs.

I am at your disposal for any other question or request.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have had the same experience that the ISO ratings for the eMotion are much more conservative and generally an average of a stop faster than comparative backs. Also the new noise control in Captureshop makes a big difference in the amount and handling of noise. Although - Thierry chime in here - I still have not been able to get the detail window to show the result of my adjustment, I still have to open the entire image before I can see what the adjustment did, and once open, it displays no additional adjustments that I make. Using CS 5.5.1.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
thsinar
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 09:37:10 AM »
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Dear Steve,

The detail window does show the change, you don't have to open the entire image.

However, when changing the amount or type of noise filtering (Chrominance, Luminance, or all the other possibilities like Fine Tunings/Smooth Edge/Low Frequencies) you need to re-click the image area to get the result in the detail window: in other words, once the detail window shows a certain setting, a new setting change needs to be re-interpolated.

This is unlike the "Sharpening" setting, where a change of USM will show up automatically in the detail window, without having tho re-click.

Hope this make sense and that I expressed myself clearly enough?

As for ISO: yes, we are very conservative concerning ISO numbers, and I can only strongly suggest to compare side by side with the same light and f-stop. One will most probably end up with comparing ISO 100 on the eMotion and ISO 200 or even more on another back, for the same density/exposure: which means in clear that the noise has to be compared accordingly to this.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I have had the same experience that the ISO ratings for the eMotion are much more conservative and generally an average of a stop faster than comparative backs. Also the new noise control in Captureshop makes a big difference in the amount and handling of noise. Although - Thierry chime in here - I still have not been able to get the detail window to show the result of my adjustment, I still have to open the entire image before I can see what the adjustment did, and once open, it displays no additional adjustments that I make. Using CS 5.5.1.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2007, 11:35:20 AM »
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Concerning the cooling fan not available on the eMotion: the eMotion series have purposely no fan built-in since they have an "intelligent" power management. The CCD and the rest of the electronics are "off" when no image is taken, and avoid this way to get heated up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Like any object, heat is absorbed from the environment by the back. The internal temperature increases outdoors on a warm sunny day. Also, when the back is in use the electronics generate heat.

What method is used to dissipate the heat that is unavoidable during use?
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thsinar
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2007, 11:53:38 AM »
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The greatest heat that can influence a sensor is the electrical current and when it is powered. If the sun does hit the casing, or when the external temperature is very high, no fan will be able to deal with this efficiently, only an active cooling system (Peltier Element) like in the Sinarbacks from the previous generation (SB 23, 43, 44 and 54).

The reason why there is no fan inside the eMotions is because of the Dalsa's sensor "Pulse-Flush" design which allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD (Kodak CCDs needs to
be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode, thus higher power consumption and more heat generated). Pulse-flush allows leaving the sensor in the idle mode and to fully remove all accumulated electrons before going active, thus lower power consumption and less noise produced. Dalsa sensors therefore also have a much lower power consumption than Kodak CCDs.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Like any object, heat is absorbed from the environment by the back. The internal temperature increases outdoors on a warm sunny day. Also, when the back is in use the electronics generate heat.

What method is used to dissipate the heat that is unavoidable during use?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:14:02 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2007, 11:56:03 AM »
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interchangeable mounts?

Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?

grtz

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.

Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2007, 12:06:28 PM »
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Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.

Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back.  
Andre
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TechTalk
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2007, 12:07:30 PM »
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If the sun does hit the casing, or when the external temperature is very high, no fan will be able to deal with this efficiently, only an active cooling system (Peltier Element) like in the Sinarbacks from the previous generation (SB 23, 43, 44 and 54).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So if a car doesn't have an air-conditioner (active cooling), there is no value in rolling down the windows and turning on a fan (passive cooling)?

The Sinar 54M uses Peltier connected to the external housing to radiate heat through the housing. Does the eMotion use a heat-sink or other method to remove heat build-up by radiating through the housing?
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RicAgu
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2007, 12:21:01 PM »
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Thierry,

Not trying to bag on your product, as I just ordered $85k in gear from Jim in the US office and will give it a fair shot when available.  I must also add that I have never even held a sinar digital product.  But every dealer I have dealt with has told me that the Sinar is great for product or none moving settings, but after 100 ASA it is no good.

When upgrading from my P25 I looked at everythig and asked advice from everyone.  I used the Aptus extensively and at the time of the upgrade V11 was not out yet and when I had been using V10 I left Leaf and decided I would not go back.  I never used the H3d because I did not want to be locked into a system, although all I use is the H1/H2 set up for Phase.  But I am hoping to get a useable solution for the H1 mount to RZ interface plate.  I do miss the RZ, but think that the Hy6 may fix this for me.

My dealers were advising Hasselabld when going into my new back and the CF was quite attractive and the files I was sent at 400 looked pretty good.  But then there was flexcolor with all its little mystery bugs and hiccups.  I don't care what adobe is comig out with, I am not a fan of LR and love C1.  Adobe is for PS.  So I went to a P45 in the meantime.

But when your dealer network is telling you not to go with a product they carry and telling you to go XX route, it is quite interesting.

I will be tesitng out the Sinar system when it is readily available with the new emotion.  I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100.  But as photographers that own our equipment we need a system that can go from tethered shooting to location shooting without a problem.

The only solution that I have found that steps up to the plate is the PhaseOne product.  At the moment that is!  I am not on a Phase band wagon.  I just want something that works without a glitch.  They have been the only product I have used that have not failed me.

I hope the Sinar product gets out into the market place, as I do for all the brands.  It is just good for all of the shooters.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 12:22:37 PM by RicAgu » Logged
TechTalk
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2007, 12:32:33 PM »
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There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back. 
Andre
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is why I was careful to state that you can not switch between 6x6 and 645 systems. While an adapter to the existing mount to a larger system (6x7 or 6x8) allows physical mounting of the back it doesn't interface the electronics of the back to the electronics of the camera. An example would be the mounting the leaf to a Fuji GX680 which requires an external sync box in the Kapture Group adapter. [a href=\"http://www.kapturegroup.com/leaf/leaf.html]Leaf/GX 680 Link[/url]

This is not the case with a Hasselblad or Sinar adapter as the electronic interface is incorporated in the design of the back and adapter.

Changing the adapter in no way requires any "shim", unless the body is out of tolerance. If the body is out of tolerance, then you can compensate by adding a micro-thin foil shim.
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Mike W
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2007, 12:33:49 PM »
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Interesting, I always thought you had to choose a specific mount and the consumer wouyld be locked in to a camera system, at least for the life-span of the DB.

Interesting little detail.

thanks

Quote
Dear Mike,

Yes, all Sinarbacks do offer interchangeable adapters and since the begining. All you need to do when changing the camera platform is to change the adapter plate by unscrewing 3 to 4 screws (depending which back type) and mount the new adapter. An operation which is done in less than 2 minutes.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mike W
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2007, 12:38:16 PM »
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?

Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?

Quote
Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.

Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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RicAgu
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2007, 12:50:32 PM »
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?  YES
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back? NO

Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded? BOTH
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2007, 12:53:41 PM »
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?

Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mike, Sinar and Hasselblad make their own adapters to allow the backs to fit onto various platforms. There are some third party adapters but they are mechanical-only solutions which are for larger formats.

Pretty much all cameras are open to having an adapter and digital back attached. It's up  to a third party to produce these. The Hy6 is no exception.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 12:57:44 PM »
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?

Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Hasselblad CF series use interchangeable mounts that you can change anytime you wish and fully interface with a wide variety of cameras. The compatibilty is shown in the following link: [a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/890fe86e-d85c-4295-9aa4-9705acfcbb12-CF_UK.pdf]Hasselblad CF Link[/url]

In addition, the CF line includes multi-shot backs (which perform single-shot as well) which will allow full RGB capture with no interpolation. Very versatile option.

For the record... Hasselblad doesn't make a system. They make several different systems for different requirements. They offer the H3D as an integrated (closed) system. The H2 as an open system. The CF backs as an open system. The old standard "V" system. A unique film scanner system. In other words, they make many more "systems" than the H3D.
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