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Author Topic: How does Aptus 75 compare to Sinar eMotion 75 ?  (Read 22152 times)
RobertJ
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 02:22:59 PM »
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There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back. 
Andre
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That solution actually kind of sucks because with the 3rd party adapters, the back won't communicate with the RZ.  

With the Sinar and/or Hasselblad Interchangeable plates and ONE digital back, you could have a plate for the Hassy H (full communication), and a plate for the Mamiya 645AFD, which can be used on an RZIID plus Mamiya adapter, which will also give you full electronic communication.  Two different platforms that can communicate with the back.  Sweetness.
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yaya
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2007, 02:59:49 PM »
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That solution actually kind of sucks because with the 3rd party adapters, the back won't communicate with the RZ. 

With the Sinar and/or Hasselblad Interchangeable plates and ONE digital back, you could have a plate for the Hassy H (full communication), and a plate for the Mamiya 645AFD, which can be used on an RZIID plus Mamiya adapter, which will also give you full electronic communication.  Two different platforms that can communicate with the back.  Sweetness.
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The RZ adapters are not 3rd party they are designed and made by Leaf. They were originally designed in 2000 for the RZ PRO and the PROII before the D came out. They allow to use an H, M or V backs on the camera and rotate like a film back. There is one sync cable required from the lens to the back and another camera control cable for those who have a motordrive and would like to trigger the camera from the computer.
A Mamiya-fit back can be used on the D (with the Mamiya plate) and will communicate with the camera like any other back.

Yair
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RobertJ
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2007, 04:43:16 PM »
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Exactly yair, but if you have an RZIID, H1, and a Mamiya 645AFD mount back, you can't use it on the H1, unless the back has an adapter plate system like the Sinar/Hasselblad backs.  That's all I'm saying.
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yaya
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 06:43:58 PM »
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Exactly yair, but if you have an RZIID, H1, and a Mamiya 645AFD mount back, you can't use it on the H1, unless the back has an adapter plate system like the Sinar/Hasselblad backs.  That's all I'm saying.
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Personally, if I had an RZDII and an H1, I would have an H mount back not an AFD back.

I won't get metering in the prism, but that metering is way off anyway since the sensor is so much smaller than the 6X7 frame (at least in my experience).

With the S backs there's no risk of "out pacing" the back on the RZ, motordriven or not, because of their speed. Plus, I won't be draining the camera's battery if I forget the plate on it....

IMHO

Yair
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 07:13:37 PM »
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You right Yair. This set up works like dream  machine for me. I can keep the shutter down - motor drive running and keep on making images forever. The speed is amazing, the quality uncomparable  to anything I've tried before - and I think I tried them all.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 07:33:14 PM by AndreNapier » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2007, 11:10:58 PM »
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I am not that sure if one can compare it with a car ventilation.

This being said, the eMotion power management and system to keep the CCD free of noise is working, and working well. As said, the "pulse-flush" makes sure that the sensor is emptied of all residual electrons before the image is shot.

I am not aware (for not having checked in detail) about a method to remove the heat built-up from radiations through the housing. But what I know is that a fan is pretty much un-efficient in this case.

I will try to get more specific information on this, which might take some time. Please bear with me.

Best regards,
Thierry

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So if a car doesn't have an air-conditioner (active cooling), there is no value in rolling down the windows and turning on a fan (passive cooling)?

The Sinar 54M uses Peltier connected to the external housing to radiate heat through the housing. Does the eMotion use a heat-sink or other method to remove heat build-up by radiating through the housing?
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 12:33:15 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2007, 11:29:15 PM »
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Dear RicAgu,

Well, let me first repeat what I am trying to say since quite a long time on this forum. I will try to make it a bit clearer.

Try the eMotion at ISO 100 and try another back from another brand at ISO 100. Compare the images and the histogram. Most probably you will see that the eMotion is 1 stop brighter than the other back, or that you have to switch the other back to ISO 200 to get the same exposure/density. Or in other words, "our" ISO 100 is equivalent to ISO 200 from another back. This is my tests having shown this and this has been confirmed by Steve Hendrix from PPR Digital in his post yesterday. Thus, if you want to compare the noise level, then compare it at ISO100 vs ISO 200. I think I cannot make it clearer.

As for dealers claiming that "Sinar is good in studio, but over ISO 100 one should forget it": some of these dealers should be updated, I confess this. Or then at least tell people that ISO 100 with Sinarbacks is equivalent to ISO 200 with others. This puts things in another perspective, isn't it?

About noise in general: we have always had the same philosophy, which is to not twick or change the raw data too much, and provide the photographer with as much original captured information as possible. So it is with "noise": we do not filter it out by some internal filtering, but provide a very powerful noise reduction feature in Captureshop which can be switched on and off on request and which can be adjusted very precisely. I can only recommend to try it out: being able to adjust "chrominance" and "luminance" noise as well as doing other "fine tunings" with this filter, is  a very good thing, IMO. Once you have found the "noise reduction" setting for your particular image(s), you can apply it to all selected images and in a batch process, without having to open each file.

One last remark: your note "I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100". I hope you will translate it now with "at 200". I guess then you will understand that the eMotion is even better than what you might think. Or again, compare "our" ISO 100 with ISO 200 with others, then we can speak at the same level.

Thanks anyway for your remarks and information about our dealers: I guess there is some homework to do for us in this area and it will be done.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry,

Not trying to bag on your product, as I just ordered $85k in gear from Jim in the US office and will give it a fair shot when available.  I must also add that I have never even held a sinar digital product.  But every dealer I have dealt with has told me that the Sinar is great for product or none moving settings, but after 100 ASA it is no good.

When upgrading from my P25 I looked at everythig and asked advice from everyone.  I used the Aptus extensively and at the time of the upgrade V11 was not out yet and when I had been using V10 I left Leaf and decided I would not go back.  I never used the H3d because I did not want to be locked into a system, although all I use is the H1/H2 set up for Phase.  But I am hoping to get a useable solution for the H1 mount to RZ interface plate.  I do miss the RZ, but think that the Hy6 may fix this for me.

My dealers were advising Hasselabld when going into my new back and the CF was quite attractive and the files I was sent at 400 looked pretty good.  But then there was flexcolor with all its little mystery bugs and hiccups.  I don't care what adobe is comig out with, I am not a fan of LR and love C1.  Adobe is for PS.  So I went to a P45 in the meantime.

But when your dealer network is telling you not to go with a product they carry and telling you to go XX route, it is quite interesting.

I will be tesitng out the Sinar system when it is readily available with the new emotion.  I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100.  But as photographers that own our equipment we need a system that can go from tethered shooting to location shooting without a problem.

The only solution that I have found that steps up to the plate is the PhaseOne product.  At the moment that is!  I am not on a Phase band wagon.  I just want something that works without a glitch.  They have been the only product I have used that have not failed me.

I hope the Sinar product gets out into the market place, as I do for all the brands.  It is just good for all of the shooters.
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 12:36:32 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 11:35:03 PM »
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Dear Andre,

Thanks for this information.

May I ask if this is the case with other MF bodies, means do they have adapters for "Contax 645", "Mamiya 645", "Mamiya RB", "Rollei 6008", "Hass V", etc.... for a back with dedicated "H" mount?

Also, can you say if this is the case with all dedicated mounts, that they have adapters for all the above brands and MF camera models?

FYI: it is a long time that there is no need to shim anymore the eMotion backs (except for the Rollei 6008). The other Sinarbacks had never to be shimmed.

Thanks for a clarification.

Best regards,
Thierry

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There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back. 
Andre
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 12:37:14 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2007, 11:37:36 PM »
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No, not with Sinarbacks, never.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Interesting, I always thought you had to choose a specific mount and the consumer wouyld be locked in to a camera system, at least for the life-span of the DB.

Interesting little detail.

thanks
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 11:42:08 PM »
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Dear Mike

- The are no current plans to make it possible to attach Hasselblad backs, for the same reason(s) stated by others here and myself in other treads.

- The Sinar adapters are manufactured by Sinar, not by third-party manufacturers, for the simple reason that our adapters are not only simple plates to enable the mount of a back, but those plates have some internal electronical contacts, internal firmware, etc ... to enable the communication with bodies like the H, the Mamiya 645, the Contax 645, etc ...

Best regards,
Thierry

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How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?

Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:19:11 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2007, 12:26:18 AM »
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Thierry,

I really appreciate your empassioned remarks.

You definitely made me want to try the Emotion 75.  What I do like is that I can go from my beloved RZ to the H1 with plates.  

I know Jim made an offer for me to try it in the near future.  I just haven't had the time to set up a test with all the needed crew and it would not do the back justice to just shoot a wall or some city scape as it is not what I do.  I am also sure you understand that it would not be wise to use it on a job having never used it before.

Since the 100 is like a 200, would it make sense to assume that the 200 would be like a 400?

For the kind of work I do, if I coudl get a usable 400 then I woudl be quite happy.  800 being a bonus, but I have enough light to throw at a problem to get 400 looking great with mixed daylight.  In the film days I always shot 400 rated at 250, 160 rated at 100, 100 rated at 80 and 800 rated at 640.

I really do like the design of the Emotion with the internal flash memory and battery.  One of the reasons I like the Phase other than C1 is the sudo internal battery.  The Leaf and Hassy CF w/ the external battery was a pain.

What is the Emotion like on an RZ?  Does it rotate or does it have to be removed and reattached to go from vertical to horizontal?  Does it need comunication cables?

Best,

Ric
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thsinar
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2007, 12:48:29 AM »
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Dear RicAgu,

You're right, ISO 200 would be the equivalent of ISO 400, and so with ISO 50 vs ISO 100, etc ....

I completely agree with you that you should make tests with the back under your own condidions and with a serious test. And so it is with shooting a job when one does not know the product, unless there is somebody there to guide you, which is not very practical.

Same as with the adapter kits for all other Sinarbacks on a RZ, also the eMotion/RZ 67 adapter kit allows you to easily revolve the digital back between landscape and portrait formats, without  the need to remove the digital back from the camera. There is one sync cable from the lens to the eMotion back.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I really appreciate your empassioned remarks.

You definitely made me want to try the Emotion 75.  What I do like is that I can go from my beloved RZ to the H1 with plates. 

I know Jim made an offer for me to try it in the near future.  I just haven't had the time to set up a test with all the needed crew and it would not do the back justice to just shoot a wall or some city scape as it is not what I do.  I am also sure you understand that it would not be wise to use it on a job having never used it before.

Since the 100 is like a 200, would it make sense to assume that the 200 would be like a 400?

For the kind of work I do, if I coudl get a usable 400 then I woudl be quite happy.  800 being a bonus, but I have enough light to throw at a problem to get 400 looking great with mixed daylight.  In the film days I always shot 400 rated at 250, 160 rated at 100, 100 rated at 80 and 800 rated at 640.

I really do like the design of the Emotion with the internal flash memory and battery.  One of the reasons I like the Phase other than C1 is the sudo internal battery.  The Leaf and Hassy CF w/ the external battery was a pain.

What is the Emotion like on an RZ?  Does it rotate or does it have to be removed and reattached to go from vertical to horizontal?  Does it need comunication cables?

Best,

Ric
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2007, 12:43:20 PM »
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I am not that sure if one can compare it with a car ventilation.

This being said, the eMotion power management and system to keep the CCD free of noise is working, and working well. As said, the "pulse-flush" makes sure that the sensor is emptied of all residual electrons before the image is shot.

I am not aware (for not having checked in detail) about a method to remove the heat built-up from radiations through the housing. But what I know is that a fan is pretty much un-efficient in this case.

I will try to get more specific information on this, which might take some time. Please bear with me.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry,

I'm just trying to understand the basic physics. Giving heat an escape route is a good thing when you want to keep any encolsed space as cool as possible.

While being able to flush the CCD at a faster rate is fine, it does not mean that the CCD is not sensitive to thermal noise. The physical temperature of any CCD at capture has a major impact on noise and dynamic range. The Dalsa specification sheet has a chart showing the relation of sensor temperature to dark current (thermal noise). See page 13 of link [a href=\"http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/FTF5066C_datasheet_20061030.pdf]Dalsa Spec Sheet[/url]

Obviously, ventilation is one way to remove trapped heat–but not he only way. As I mentioned, the Sinar 54M has a unique combination of Peltier device actively transferring heat to the external back housing to be passively radiated out. Novel and effective! 54M Cooling Link

I'm certain the eMotion series delivers excellent files. I've seen fine images with eMotion backs. I'm still curious, however, what escape path is provided for trapped heat.

I used the car example only because people can relate to this. The laws of physics are at work for a person trapped inside a sealed box on a warm day as they are for a sensor.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:55:16 PM by TechTalk » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2007, 02:37:30 PM »
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Tech Talk,

No harm to ask, and I understand your "concern" and question well. Fact is that I simply don't know, having never digged too deep into this issue and how it is solved in detail, and that I am more than satisfied with the results I get. So I will try to get more specific information on this. However, our product manager is currently on vacation, so it might take some time, and I don't feel like opening and dismounting my back for the purpose to check this out.

 

The SB 54 M is not the only Sinarback having an active cooling system: all the Sinarbacks of the first and second generation have the Peltier cooling system. But then, those backs are from first and 2nd generation of electronics and technical build.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I'm just trying to understand the basic physics. Giving heat an escape route is a good thing when you want to keep any encolsed space as cool as possible.

While being able to flush the CCD at a faster rate is fine, it does not mean that the CCD is not sensitive to thermal noise. The physical temperature of any CCD at capture has a major impact on noise and dynamic range. The Dalsa specification sheet has a chart showing the relation of sensor temperature to dark current (thermal noise). See page 13 of link Dalsa Spec Sheet

Obviously, ventilation is one way to remove trapped heat–but not he only way. As I mentioned, the Sinar 54M has a unique combination of Peltier device actively transferring heat to the external back housing to be passively radiated out. Novel and effective! 54M Cooling Link

I'm certain the eMotion series delivers excellent files. I've seen fine images with eMotion backs. I'm still curious, however, what escape path is provided for trapped heat.

I used the car example only because people can relate to this. The laws of physics are at work for a person trapped inside a sealed box on a warm day as they are for a sensor.
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 02:38:12 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2007, 03:26:35 PM »
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when  got my P30 i came from a 6008/P20 combo...so the first thing i looked at was the emotion backs (along with everything else...) the emotion 75 would have been my first choice overall....i went with the P30 mostly because it cost me a lot less (although i had to move to RZ/M645)....the emotion 75 is a truly great back, nice screen, great files combined with the schneider/rollei lenses incredible detail....noise was a little higher then the other backs (at higher iso) but i can second thierry's remark about the sinar backs being rated a stop slower then they actually are....
i had come from leaf before and looked at the aptus line, but the software (at the time still in beta limbo) and the screen were a little disappointing....compared to the emotion, which i prefer.....
i also looked at the CF at the time and the file came in last in my tests....
the P30 proved to be the best all around solution regarding: software (now even better with LR), resolution, speed (both shooting and high iso noise) and was considerably cheaper then all the others....so it was a no brainer for me.....i am still looking to get my hands on the Hy6 to check it out....but afaik LR does not support emotion files? so that would actually now make it hard to justify....
i don't need ultra WA, so imager size is not really an issue for me....
at the time i did my shopping the emotion combined with rollei/schneider glass provided the best file out of all the options......
i would still love to see the P30 on a rollei/Hy6 with schneider glass....hopefully it will happen....
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2007, 03:45:32 PM »
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How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?

I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
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A75/ISO 800/125@5.6/Flourescent room lighting/No Flash/No PP other than RAW to Tiff to JPEG. The satisfying air from the back's fan even keeps my grip-hand cool. 80O for me is unusable. I would probably question the sanity of any MF back user who shoots much over the minimum ISO rating.
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« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2007, 03:56:40 PM »
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Thanks Paul, for always being honest about quality, even though using another brand.

Yes, noise might be a little higher, but then it is mainly due to our lower ISO rating and the fact that we don't filter raws out of the back concerning noise. The availability of a "Noise Reduction" plugin and filter is however included in Captureshop, letting the choice to the photographer of filtering and fine tuning with different settings. A quite powerful tool, IMO.

LR compatibility:

- eMotion files (and other Sinarback files) shall be compatible with LR, as well as any other dng compatible application, with the new Exposure to come.

- For the time being, eMotion files are also compatible with LR (as well as any other dng compatible application) by means of the "Brumbaer DGN Converter".

With this application, the files are read out of the eMotions (tethered or not) and then converted into DNG (time of conversion on a MBP 2,33 MGh/2 GB Ram = 3 sec.), with automatical applying of "White References" if needed: this can be done in a batch on as many images as wanted and automatically: the dng converter recognizes to which image data the white ref corresponds. And like in Captureshop, centerfold issues are dealt with automatically without even noticing it. Beside this, automatic "Denoise" and "Vigneting" of white referenes can be applied.

The "Brumbaer Tools" can be dowloaded FOC under following link:

http://www.brumbaer.de/Tools/Brumbaer_Tools.html

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
when  got my P30 i came from a 6008/P20 combo...so the first thing i looked at was the emotion backs (along with everything else...) the emotion 75 would have been my first choice overall....i went with the P30 mostly because it cost me a lot less (although i had to move to RZ/M645)....the emotion 75 is a truly great back, nice screen, great files combined with the schneider/rollei lenses incredible detail....noise was a little higher then the other backs (at higher iso) but i can second thierry's remark about the sinar backs being rated a stop slower then they actually are....
i had come from leaf before and looked at the aptus line, but the software (at the time still in beta limbo) and the screen were a little disappointing....compared to the emotion, which i prefer.....
i also looked at the CF at the time and the file came in last in my tests....
the P30 proved to be the best all around solution regarding: software (now even better with LR), resolution, speed (both shooting and high iso noise) and was considerably cheaper then all the others....so it was a no brainer for me.....i am still looking to get my hands on the Hy6 to check it out....but afaik LR does not support emotion files? so that would actually now make it hard to justify....
i don't need ultra WA, so imager size is not really an issue for me....
at the time i did my shopping the emotion combined with rollei/schneider glass provided the best file out of all the options......
i would still love to see the P30 on a rollei/Hy6 with schneider glass....hopefully it will happen....
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 04:26:17 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2007, 04:10:11 PM »
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Tech Talk,

No harm to ask, and I understand your "concern" and question well. Fact is that I simply don't know, having never digged too deep into this issue and how it is solved in detail, and that I am more than satisfied with the results I get. So I will try to get more specific information on this. However, our product manager is currently on vacation, so it might take some time, and I don't feel like opening and dismounting my back for the purpose to check this out.

 

The SB 54 M is not the only Sinarback having an active cooling system: all the Sinarbacks of the first and second generation have the Peltier cooling system. But then, those backs are from first and 2nd generation of electronics and technical build.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Fair enough Thierry. No rush. As always, your efforts are appreciated.

I know I'm being a bit of a nuisance. I just like to understand how things work (where my unscientific brain can grasp the concept) and your willingness to help is generous.
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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2007, 06:03:37 PM »
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thanks thierry, i just wanted to put  a spot also on two things between the a75 and the e75 comparations:
1. workflow of software
2. possible centerfold issues and how practical they are handled in the software.

i am not friend of the camera raw softwares from any manufactor, if i compare them with lightroom or acr for speed and with iridients raw develloper for quality. so i dont use the capture shop software and go the brumbaer route.
unfortuntaly for all backs in the market should be shot white reference files, to compensate color shifts over the sensor field,- and there is no way to avoid this if you work with shift lenses.
in general the dalsa chips behave better in this field than the kodak sensors, but still not good enough. how are this white shots used in the conversion process makes a big difference between the available softwares,- brumbaer tools applies them as batch automatically which save hours of time each day on location.
also i listen again and again from leaf users that they still have centerfold problems, which not in all cases can be removed by the way leaf is going with its gain adjuster, inverting grey shots and subtracting them from the images.
for me this details make it to a no-brainer which back i would buy if i would have to decide between leaf and sinar. i cannot see any advantage to favour of the leaf aptus75. maybe the bigger display, but in sunlight, where i often shoot, the oly displays seems to be better visible. at least good enough for focus check at 100%.
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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2007, 06:12:15 PM »
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A75/ISO 800/125@5.6/Flourescent room lighting/No Flash/No PP other than RAW to Tiff to JPEG. The satisfying air from the back's fan even keeps my grip-hand cool. 80O for me is unusable. I would probably question the sanity of any MF back user who shoots much over the minimum ISO rating.
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noise is very personal but i use the P30 at 400 and 800 quite a bit...and i ahve heard that the P30+ brings that up one more stop....i find the "noise at 800 to be very "grain-like" reminds me of TRI-X (for all who can remember)...i absolutely hate noise reduction software (almost as much as i hate sharpening software)....i have tried all, but i prefer a "grainy" look over a smudged mushy any day....
of course if you want clean, base iso is it.....but remember that any film (even velvia) shows a lot of grain/noise when scanned and blown up....

it really depends on your personal preference...

one of the things i did not like about the aptus (and my valeo before that) was the seemingly always applied noise reduction (just like phase always seems to have some kind of sharpening on in C1, even when it is turned off...)...the emotion does not seem to have that...

comes down to the same old thing: test them all, there are too ma ny things to consider, most of them personal preference....
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