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Author Topic: Rolleiflex Hy6  (Read 31326 times)
izaack
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 08:35:19 PM »
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... but we know what we are doing...

Thierry
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Famous last words.
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thsinar
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2007, 08:36:35 PM »
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Dear Paul,

as you probably know, things and decisions sometimes change in life as well as in busines. Yes, I did tell that the Hy6 would be sold by Sinar in the whole world, and yes I did say here that the Rollei branded model would be sold only in Japan, Russia and China. That was the information months back.

Now let things come and see. Fact is that Sinar is selling the Hy6 worldwide and in this nothing has changed. I don't see therefore anything so different and dramatic.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
this is just amazing...i am pretty sure there has never been a camera that has been announced with so much confusion....just do a search on this forum....and misinformation.....
afaik sinar was supposed to be the sole distributer for rollei in the US! and now this! i really ownder who makes the desicions with whatever company owns/builds/...the Hy6....thierry comes here and tells us that there will not be a rolleiflex Hy6 sold in the US, because i am sure that is what sinar was told by F&H and here it is before sinar can put it on the market!

anyway...i think we all knew that phase would at some point get thier backs on the Hy6, but like someone else pointed out here: firmware updates? service?(i am sure that onick with rollei/hensel in NJ is getting training on it as we speak, so i am not worried) warranty? distribution?
this fits just in with the rest of the great rollei history of great marketing fiaskos....

and yes i can't wait to get my hands on one....because it will be the best camera...

ps: did anyone bother to check out the ridiculous pricelist on the website...the lenses are even more then on the sinar pricelist....most of which can be had quite a bit cheaper from "old" rollei dealers...crazyness!
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izaack
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2007, 08:42:59 PM »
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ps: did anyone bother to check out the ridiculous pricelist on the website...the lenses are even more then on the sinar pricelist....most of which can be had quite a bit cheaper from "old" rollei dealers...crazyness!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But "we know what we're doing", Thierry says. And you got to take his words at face value.

With the Canon 1Ds Mark III on the right, the Hasselblad H3D Mark 2 on the left, and the Nikon D3 (and possibly, a D3x) in the middle, the Hy6 in all its variations is soon going to be a moot point anyway. As Mark says, the Ultimate Dentist Camera.

Thierry, the market decides. Let's hope you're right.

I'm not sanguine.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 08:46:50 PM by izaack » Logged
Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2007, 08:47:32 PM »
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Berlin is gonna call nobody, nor is Sinar goona call another country. We are mature companies and people who might not always have all right, but we know what we are doing, in opposition to your suggestion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.

I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.

Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.

(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).

I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".

All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.

To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.

Just one opinion.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 08:53:08 PM by Mark_Tucker » Logged
mattlap2
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2007, 09:05:40 PM »
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The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.

Well Mark,

I can tell you that the statement you make above is utterly ridiculous.   I worked for Sinar Bron for 4 years, until this past July.

The main and ONLY office is in Edison, NJ and currently has 4 repair technicians.   Parts are fully stocked and available.  

There are independent authorized repair facilities around the country.   Due to the age of digital many of these repairmen of mechanical cameras have disappeared or are much smaller operations.   I can say it is possible that one of these repair facilities does not have a given part at a given time.   But they are NOT the factory repair facilities in the US.

Matt LaPointe
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thsinar
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« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2007, 09:11:20 PM »
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Yes, the market decides, you are right. So I don't understand why some people are such bothered and bash a product or a person standing for it.

I thank you for the "moot" and "dentist camera" words.

Respect is all.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
But "we know what we're doing", Thierry says. And you got to take his words at face value.

With the Canon 1Ds Mark III on the right, the Hasselblad H3D Mark 2 on the left, and the Nikon D3 (and possibly, a D3x) in the middle, the Hy6 in all its variations is soon going to be a moot point anyway. As Mark says, the Ultimate Dentist Camera.

Thierry, the market decides. Let's hope you're right.

I'm not sanguine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2007, 09:16:08 PM »
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Mark,

I can assure that you can buy a car in 1/2 a day in Switzerland, with a test drive and even drive home with it the very same half day (and even without paying one cent that same day!). I did it with the 3 cars I owed there. And I guess this is the same in Germany.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.

I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.

Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.

(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).

I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".

All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.

To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.

Just one opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2007, 09:17:38 PM »
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Thanks Matt to put this right!

This is the problem with "I've heard ....".

Best regards,
Thierry

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Well Mark,

I can tell you that the statement you make above is utterly ridiculous.   I worked for Sinar Bron for 4 years, until this past July.

The main and ONLY office is in Edison, NJ and currently has 4 repair technicians.   Parts are fully stocked and available.   

There are independent authorized repair facilities around the country.   Due to the age of digital many of these repairmen of mechanical cameras have disappeared or are much smaller operations.   I can say it is possible that one of these repair facilities does not have a given part at a given time.   But they are NOT the factory repair facilities in the US.

Matt LaPointe
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2007, 09:30:37 PM »
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I can say that all of the view camera manufacturers that we sell have varying degrees of infrastructure. I won't name the lower ends of the rung. We are authorized for nearly all of them. Sinar is and has been by far our most sold view camera brand for decades. The biggest reason - outside of the excellence of the product - is that the infrastructure that Sinar possesses in terms of staff, repair facilities and available inventories dwarfs their competitors.

The Hy6 is certainly a venture in a different direction for Sinar, and it will be a challenge. As dealers, we have tried to help make them aware of the challenges that exist in the medium format world, and we are hopefull they are up to it. Regardless, while inventory on the shelf isn't necessarily 100% guaranteed, whatever we can't get immediately is typically shipped within 1 to 2 weeks, and these instances are relatively rare.

The fact that Sinar has already launched a promotional Hy6/eMotionLV special bundle that includes a Free 5 YEAR Hot Swap Warranty (good through December 31, 2007) bodes well for their committment and capability in supporting the product.

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2007, 09:52:57 PM »
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Thanks Matt to put this right!

This is the problem with "I've heard ....".

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just realized that Mark might have mixed up Sinar with Arca Swiss.

Arca Swiss is imported by a woman out of Chicago, who is a relation of someone at the Swiss Consulate here.    She has been an importer for 10+ years now and yes she is very hard to get a hold of.   She inventoried the US stock out of her garage on the North Side of the City.

However their repair is done by Precision Camera Works here in the Chicago area and they are reputable and stock parts.

The problem with Arca Swiss at one time was getting accesories.   I don't know how consistent their distribution is in the US currently.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 09:54:03 PM by mattlap2 » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2007, 11:44:59 PM »
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mark....you should know better then that...sinar is and was the most respected 4x5 and 8x10 studio camera for the last ? forever? so i would not worry....
and that sinar announcement beats anything and everything by a mile...5 years with 24 replacement? that is insane! tha is what i want! btw: does that include the camera as well? that would be the real killer!

but all that does not solve the problem we are really talking about....how confusing is that to begin with: ONE camera with (for now) 3 different names on it, from (for now 3) different distributers....again just do a search here and let your jaw drop by reading all the confusion and misinformation going around...and neiter sinar, leaf nor F&H or jenoptic really does anythng about it...honestly it is not good for a product to come with a 3 page explaination on who, where, how and when designs, builds, distributes, owns and in the end takes care of it.....this does not go over well with consumers.....
consumers want all in one packages with "mega focus" and "worlds first and best" labels.....which is why dentists these days have H3Ds....they don't even know what the Hy6 is and even less where to get it.....call a distributer? i want ot walk into a store and buy the toy!

yes..i still want the Hy6 and the deal: Hy6/emotion75/lens/90finder+5years/24 hour at 32000 should make everybody looking into a system right now seriously consider this.....but somehow i don't know.....what does leaf say about this? how come they don't offer that? will they? will the rolleiflex Hy6 partner with phase? bth thierry and yaya have been putting their hands in the fire, saying it won't happen.....turns out now, this could totally be on the table....which would totally undermine all "marketing" that was done up to now on sinar and leaf's part.....

i guess just having the best quality does not work anymore...listening sinar?
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2007, 12:16:28 AM »
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Paul,

I did not say that exactly, but that Sinar will not do an adapter for Phase backs, neither for Hasselblad, and that they are not part of the Hy6 project.However, I said also that nobody can stop them to make their own adapter.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
will the rolleiflex Hy6 partner with phase? bth thierry and yaya have been putting their hands in the fire, saying it won't happen.....turns out now, this could totally be on the table....which would totally undermine all "marketing" that was done up to now on sinar and leaf's part.....

i guess just having the best quality does not work anymore...listening sinar?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 02:22:30 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2007, 01:07:13 AM »
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The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.

I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.

Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.

(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).

I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".

All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.

To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.

Just one opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But we still can discus where are built the better cars ..... and who`s selling more, more so in proportion to the size of the countries.

but i did not understood all the hysteria about the HY6 some months ago , as it would be the first and only medium format camera for digital , and now, one time more, i dont understand all the spaculacions in this post, nor before the long discussions how bad it might be that there is no 28mm. probably the camera will be a success with so much attention given to it .
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 02:25:44 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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thsinar
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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2007, 02:18:42 AM »
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I am speaking for Sinar, not for F&H or else.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Famous last words.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2007, 03:23:52 AM »
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Thank goodness that there are amateur [from wikipedia: The word comes from French, and can be translated as "lover of", reflecting the amateur's motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity.] photographers that appreciate the efforts made by manufacturers like Sinar, Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya and many others. Manufacturers that have many people in their operations that also love the art and science of photography. Manufacturers that have struggled to stay in business, to deliver a higher quality product for a small market, in an age where digital technology has made "economy of scale" in production costs vastly greater than they ever were before. Yes, bless those amateurs that can afford to appreciate the unique esoteric tools that others rely on to make their living. Without them, some of those tools would be even more expensive than they are now–if they could exist in the market at all.

Those amateurs, that some condescendingly think of as sheep being lead around by clever marketing, make it possible for the small volume manufacturers to stay alive. And by keeping them alive, provide additional opportunity to make sneering remarks about the efforts of these manufacturers to develop and market new technologies and products.

You have questions about technology, features, marketing, business decisions–ask them. You have criticisms or praises–make them. But the amount of disrespect and cynicism that I sometimes see directed at manufacturers, their products or the people that enjoy using them is disheartening at times, to say the least.

Just my little rant for the day.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 03:53:29 AM by TechTalk » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2007, 03:24:43 AM »
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"give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me".[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this is a dream situation for a salesman, and why some people get "screwed over"  

Quote
My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thankfully we have a great customer/consumer protective legislation where I live, when you purchase something as a consumer you get at lest 2 years (most ofthen 5 years) of protection from faulty fabrication or other product faults/defects.

The salesman has two tries to repair or replace the defective product, if not you can demand your money back. If the salesman is not able to repair within reasonable time (counted in weeks, not months) you are entitled to a loaner of the same type product/quality. If the salesman can not provide such a loaner, you have the right to get your money back.

This basically means if the answer is "you have to wait eight to twelve weeks..." on a reasonably new product you have a dealer in a lot of trouble standing in front of you  

To me what is certain, is that Sinar/Leaf/F&H/Jenoptik have released information about their product too early, maybe in some hope to cut sales from HB and make people "wait for the better product".

-axel
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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2007, 04:20:57 AM »
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Hello,

last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.

What a hell of a camera.

The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter side, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.

And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...

Regards
Heinrich
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 06:15:47 AM by heinrichvoelkel » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2007, 04:27:16 AM »
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... and the same full functional Sinar Hy6 was demonstrated at the "Salon de la Photo" in Paris, as well as at a exhibition in St. Petersburg.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hello,

last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.

What a hell of a camera.

The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter sound, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.

And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...

Regards
Heinrich
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144562\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 04:27:31 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2007, 04:51:28 AM »
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... and the same full functional Sinar Hy6 was demonstrated at the "Salon de la Photo" in Paris, as well as at a exhibition in St. Petersburg.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The 5-year "hot swap" warranty promotion on camera, back and system components is also impressive service and added value.
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josayeruk
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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2007, 05:34:30 AM »
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Why would a Rolleiflex dealer mention Sinar or Leaf? I don't get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Apologies,  I didn't really express myself very well.

What I meant to say was F&H are in the position of being an OEM manufacturer for Leaf and Sinar.

Therefore I think the situation would be clearer if they remained autonomous.

Deciding to try and sell themsleves in a large market like the US then puts them in competition with their partnered companies of Leaf and Sinar.

F&H have more to play with on profit margains so will they then be putting pressure on Leaf and Sinar to cut their prices to unfair levels?

That's what I meant to say.  Not saying I am correct at all - I just think it might be a interesting discussion.

Jo S.x
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