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Author Topic: 3100 Woes  (Read 15078 times)
dkeyes
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2007, 01:59:13 AM »
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From the manual for the base Z3100, HP Designjet Z3100 Photo Printer Series
"Using your printer"  click here
Table 17-10 Printer environmental specifications

Operating for optimal print quality 22°C to 26°C (72°F to 79°F) 30% to 60% RH

Operating for standard printing 15°C to 35°C (59°F to 95°F) 20% to 80% RH

Printer without consumables 5°C to 40°C (41°F to 104°F)

Non-operating packed consumables and printer: -40°C to 60°C (-40°F to 140°F)
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Wow, I haven't seen the "optimal print quality" specs. The temp range is very narrow and warmer than my studio ever gets. Might explain why I sometimes get a slightly milky looking gloss coat noticable in the blacks when I print near 59°F. It's just setting on top of the ink versus mixing in (on HP Pro Satin) I guess it might be time to heat my basement studio.
- Doug
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f64digital
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2007, 06:41:56 PM »
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Carlos E

I live in the Baleares where the humidity is very high too. I have the smaller B9180 fromm HP, and do not find your sort of problem  (yet - tocando madera) with papers. I use Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Bright White 310gsm.

I didn´t know which built-in profile to use with it, so I contacted Hahnemuehle and downloaded their profile for the HP printer and this paper: it was terrible, and produced what looked like banding. So, I used the built-in profile for HP Smooth Fine Art and it works well enough without any sign of banding.

The black/white prints from this printer are superb, and I speak with professional experience of printing my own b/w in a wet darkroom since 57´or so. I find the use of Jessops Heavyweight Photo Matt 230gsm gives lovely prints with this machine. I don´t think this paper is available in Spain - I have a neighbour bring it out from the UK - and it is manufactured in Germany by I don´t know whom. The only reason I do not use it for everything is that only the Hahne paper appears to have a long-life guarantee...

Don´t worry about your use of English - if only my Spanish were half as good!

Hasta luego

Rob C

Edit: I would remark that it takes Hahne papers a longish while to dry properly and to reveal their final colours. Printed one day, I find it is possibly two days later before colour seems settled. This COULD be due to high humidity... makes printing a frustratingly long process.
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I think that the transport mechanism of the 9180 is different from the Z2100-3100. I am sure that me presure of the transport mechanism on the desktop printers is a lot lower than the presure  on the wide format printers. I have had the springs of the Z3100 transport rolls on my hands... they are a lot longer and harder to expand.

About the jeesop paper, I am sure that it will be rolled-marked... I have used HP Hahnemühle smooth fine art, Epson Velvet Fine Art, Fuji Rag paper... all of them with marks. On RC papers I had marks on Fuji Gloss, Kodak Professional Glossy, Permajet Fibre-based, Fuji Baryte.... and some other that I don't remembar at this time... On dry time I had also pizza marks on HP ID gloss.

The HP Z series is very restrictive about the papers you can use with it... No problems about this issue on Epson machines, nevertheless the humidity on my area (Not talking about black ink swapp, and cleaning cycles)

HP engineers must remake the paper transport mechanism from the begining.... if not the new series of Z machines will have all this problems with the delicate surface of the fine art papers.

About the profile ou used for your prints... a bad RGB profile can cause color shifts, color casts, modify the overall contrast of the image, and also the brightness; but can't cause banding, ink-overload, modify ink limits (I am talking about RGB profiles, the ones that are used with the normal RGB drivers, no RIPs nor PS). Perhaps the banding you observed on your prints was a coincidence when changed the ICC profile.

PD... good Spanish

Carlos E
www.f64digital.com
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f64digital
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2007, 06:48:49 PM »
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the photo from carlos is exactly what im getting.

min
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The only solution for this is controlling the ambient conditions... humidity and temperature of the room where you print and store the paper... this is a very expensive and not ecological way...

Well you have another solution... wait for the Canon IPF 8100... or a new HP model without this problem, or wait for epson to introduce the 11880 head technology on the smaller wide format printer...

At this moment I haven't found an optimal solution for mate-glossy giclé printing on the same machine... I hope that the 11880 we are wating will be the anxious waited solution for us.

Carlos E.
www.f64digital.com
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f64digital
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2007, 07:15:50 PM »
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My 24" Z3100 has been a very reliable printer on a number of papers.  That said, I don't make my living printing with it so I'm sure you have an entirely different perspective. 

That last firmware/software update was a bit of a challenge and I hope that's why they're taking so long to release version 6.  I hope its a trouble free install.
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You should have a relative cold and low humidity ambient conditions... I am sure you haven't tried to print on any of the new fibre-based-glossy paper, like Permajet Fibre-based glossy, Innova Fibaprint, Fuji Baryte, Crane Museum silver rag... and others... the Z series paper transport mechanism leave roller marks on all this papers... on any conditions.

I have to say that this machine works lovely on HP papers... except on Hanhemühle papers... at least on my ambient conditions wich are into the range of HP operating conditions for the Z.

Another problem is the low scratch resistence of the Vivera inkset, mostly on RC papers, even on HP papers. This is not a problem if you are not going to manipulate big prints and just going to hang on a wall... I had to manipulate  10 prints sized 1x1,50 m. We had to laminate the copys for an extra UV and mechanical protection, because the prints were going to the walls of the Lanzarote airport... I had to reprint 5 because of scratches (we are very proud when laminating... never had problems with other inksets; most of the prints I have laminated were printed with K3 inks). If you print for example on HP ID Glossy, leave the print two days drying, and then pass a nail softly over the printed surface, you'll leave a white mark... it happens most on greens. I have observed that the most delicate ink is the gray. If you print on the same paper usink K3 inks, you'll find that is more difficult to scratch the surface of the paper, and more difficult to leave a white line on it.

About the new firmware v.6 it is said that the user will control the ink-limits. The problem is that the transport mechanism was no designed no have different levels of pressure. It has only one mechanical position and there is no way to lower the pressure of the rolls onto the paper; well there is one, but you'll have to change manually the springs for softer ones... I have dismounted it once whith the HP technician, so I sadly can confirm that there is no solution for the roller marks.

Carlos E.
www.f64digital.com
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Min
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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2007, 08:01:55 PM »
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But what doesnt make sense to me is why would the roller marks appear suddenly? I've ruled out humidity and the such because I operate under the ideal conditions apparently. And if its a pressure issue wouldn't the marks have always been a problem?

I have a tech coming in the next day or so...

min
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rdonson
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« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2007, 08:15:19 PM »
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You should have a relative cold and low humidity ambient conditions... I am sure you haven't tried to print on any of the new fibre-based-glossy paper, like Permajet Fibre-based glossy, Innova Fibaprint, Fuji Baryte, Crane Museum silver rag... and others...

Carlos E.
www.f64digital.com
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True, I haven't printed on any of those papers.  I've been waiting for others to report their experiences with those on the Z3100.  

The non-matte papers I've printed on are:
- HP ID Satin
- HP ID Glossy
- Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin
- Epson Semi-Gloss

My environmental conditions fall within the HP ideal parameters.
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Ron
Roscolo
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2007, 01:10:07 AM »
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I'm leaning towards the theory that there are just a few defective z3100's out there as I've only seen a very few individuals having problems with paper marks, and some of those individuals were using wrong paper settings (some of those were solved here on the forums).

I've printed on about 8 papers (and canvas and vinyl), thick and thin, and have yet to see the first paper mark even though I'm in humid Georgia. I have seen marks on profiling charts, but I believe those marks are created when the printer pulls the profile back into the printer to read the color samples. I do keep the printer and my papers in an isolated room (formerly my darkroom!) and run the AC when necessary. My house is very well insulated, has exposed concrete floors and very high ceilings, so it doesn't get that hot even with no AC and my "printing room" even more so as it has no windows. Climate control of the printing environment isn't "very expensive and not ecological," it is a near necessity if one is aiming for consistent printing for business. This was true for film and chemistry and darkroom printing and it is just as important for digital printing. Paper will absorb humidity and it simply isn't going to perform the same when it is stored properly in plastic in a controlled environment as when it is left exposed to heat and high humidity. The same was true of traditional photographic papers and films. Extreme heat and humidity aren't just bad for papers, it's bad for your printers, computers, monitors, etc. Literally all computers, components, printers and electronics are shipped with silica gel precisely because humidity is the enemy of all the gizmos we expect to work all the time and, in shipping, manufacturers know these items are likely to endure some warehouse / shipping conditions that are less than ideal, i.e. hot and humid.

That said, I lean towards the "few defective z's" theory, because of the thousands of z's sold, I've seen maybe 10-12 individuals here and elsewhere with transport marks that don't appear to be the result of user error.

I haven't printed on any of the new baryta papers, but I'm unlikely to because I love my B&W's on HP's Photo ID Satin. I'm doing editions so consistency is critical and changing papers is a no-no. I can't imagine paying at least twice as much for the unproven baryta papers (I'm unaware of any archival testing data for any of these papers) when the HP ID Satin gives me the look of a traditional fiber B&W...not the feel, certainly, but the look is perfect. I have samples of the same image from the same 4x5 negs. printed on traditional Ilford Fiber Multi-Grade Glossy and HP Photo ID Satin and on the wall they are virtually indistinguishable as to which is digital and which is darkroom. I like that the HP Satin lies nice and flat also, much easier for framing, especially at the sizes I am printing - 32" x 40", 40" x 50".

I think a company could make a nice living just by offering a new paper of some sort every 3-6 months as there seems to be a market for the "new." It was inconsistency that drove me from Kodak films and B&W papers some years ago - every year something was "new" or "improved" with new processing times, look, packaging, etc. This made consistent results difficult if not impossible with Kodak products. Kodak's "strategy" practically gave the title of "reliable and consistent brand" to Ilford.

All that said, I hope HP can definitively solve the problems for those that have them. Some of you are getting paper marks and there has to be a reason for that. And it's quite possible my completely satisfactorily results with the z3100 are related to my more "consistency centered" approach in my workflow. I'm not trying a lot of papers, certainly not when they first hit the market. I stick to a stable of about 6-8, and for my own work, the vast majority of which is B&W, I'm set on HP Photo ID Satin because the look is outstanding, I've already committed quite a few editions of oversized prints to it, and I want consistency in appearance when I show these images, now and in the future.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 01:12:12 AM by Roscolo » Logged
f64digital
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2007, 03:22:11 AM »
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Roscolo, I have printed in HP ID Satin with good results and no roller marks. I have also printed on HP Litographic Mate Paper, HP ID Gloss, Outdoor Vinyls, and mate canvas with no problems. Also the printer performs well on many third party satin or pearl papers with no roller marks. I have only observed a bad adherence on Fuji Pearl Paper, but worked well on Canson Satin, Epson Premium Semigloss, Permajet semigloss and Kodak Professional Lustre.

The problem appear when you need to print on many fine art papers, like HP Hanhemühle Smooth fine art, also when the paper and printer are in the ambient operating conditions suggested from HP.

I have also tested a Z2100 on HP Hanhemühle Smooth fine art paper on my dealer store with controlled ambien conditions, and the prints showed the same roller marks, so I think the problem is not a defective unit, but a design problem of the paper transport mechanism.

The printer performs very well with no roller marks when you use only the HP papers, except on HP Hanhemühle Smooth Fine Art. Some of us need to print on this range of fine art papers and also the new Fibre-based papers because our customers want this feeling. I can accept that the Z don't perform well on non HP papers; what made me upset was discovering roller marks o HP Hanhemühle Smooth Fine Art paper... from different stock roolls. HP said that this is a limitation on the machine, but I need to print on these papers.

Carlos E.
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ericbullock
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2007, 01:38:03 PM »
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Hello everyone. This is a known issue and I wanted to share with everyone the response from the developers in Barcelona:

Quote
The issue you are describing has been already identified and the solution is on their deployment phase. It is due to the material of the Pinch wheel, the printer mechanism that holds the paper. And, as you said, it appears more in thick papers or in environments with high humidity.
 
A new pinch wheel to solve the issue will be available during December as service kit, this means that a customer will call hp support and an on-site engineer will come and replace the part.

So while not a perfect answer, everyone should feel better that HP is aware of the problem and a solution is on its way.

Cheers,

Eric Bullock
Mac Business Solutions
www.mbsdirect.com
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rdonson
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2007, 02:28:18 PM »
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Thanks, Eric.  It very reassuring that HP is addressing the problem.
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Ron
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2007, 02:33:06 PM »
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Yeah, Eric!

Thanks looking into it and for passing along my woes to HP!

talk to you soon!

min
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stevenh
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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2007, 04:25:25 PM »
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thanks for the update.  i was printing on the hp hann. paper and would get the marks occasionally.

this past weekend i was printing on the pid glossy. the first two prints (different images) printed fine. the third image had the roller marks. this was all within about 1.5 to 2 hours.
of course this kind of stuff always seems to manifest when an edition is due....
good to hear that HP is coming with a fix.
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Colorwave
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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2007, 05:48:25 PM »
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If you listen very carefully, you can hear the sound of the cavalry approaching from the distance . . .

Thanks, Eric, for the encouraging word from our friends in Barcelona.  This will hopefully be the resolution we have been waiting for with this problem, and as a side benefit it may put to rest the "operator error" theory espoused above.  A few too many "operators" seem to have this "error" to write it off as anything but a design flaw (intermittent or not).
-Ron H.
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f64digital
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2007, 02:05:19 AM »
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I've been fighting with HP about this issue since March..., until they recognized the problem on June; they where working on a solution since July... and it was on Septtember when HP decided not to repair my unit, but buy back it... Yes they told me textually "It is a limitacion of the machine". Now I have sent the Z3100 to France two weeks ago, and wating the money back.

I hope now it is true that they are really working on a solution for this marks. The problem was that I could not stay wating 2, 4, 6, 12 months for a solution. It is a lot of money for having roller marks.

Carlos E
www.f64digital.com
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 04:39:36 AM by f64digital » Logged
georgek
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2007, 02:58:34 AM »
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It seems that HP finally coming up with a solution to the roller mark problem. Does anybody know if and when they are going to solve the starwheel problem?

Best
George
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marty m
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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2008, 01:41:20 AM »
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I'm going through older threads to read about the problems with ink marks.  This thread discussed all of the problems with the Z3100 as compared with Epson.

My Epson 4000 used a vacuum.  Do the newer models of Epson use a vacuum?

I'm wondering if the issue is a fundamental difference in design approach.  A printer using a vacuum would not have to apply as much pressure with pinch rollers or star wheels.
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Christopher
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2008, 02:58:03 AM »
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Had the same problem on some Papers especially. Talked to HP a lot even with the people in Spain. They were here some time. But in the End after 6 months I had enough, sorry but HP doesn't even know there own printer. Went back to Epson and was never so happy. Funny thing, Printed on PK on the Epson with HM PhotoRag with good profiles is as good as any HP z3100 print ever on that paper. Isn't that kind of sad ^^

@ericbullock

HP knows of this problem for ONE year know, because I reported it one year ago, the same for the very poor red perfomrence on Matt papers. HP keeps talking that they gonna fix it. Perhaps if you get lucky you will see a fix with the next generation of printers.

All what HP is doing is playing tricks on ther customers. If you want you money back just get a little harsh and tell them you will take legal actions, if they don't take it back and give you the money back. You will see, you will get your money back quite fast....
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 03:02:21 AM by Christopher » Logged

Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 07:35:04 AM »
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I've had some of the same experiences, but I'm inclined to cut HP some slack here. After all, we're using a huge range of papers from independent vendors with widely differing coating technologies over which HP has absolutely no control. They can't know in advance every possible permutation of paper and coating the machine will have to deal with.

My experience so far is that the Z3100 (24") handles all of HP's papers without any problem at all—no scratches or roller marks. It handles most of Epson's papers with equal aplomb. I've had no trouble with most of Hahnemuhle's papers. The newer fiber/gloss papers are tougher. Crane silver rag goes through my machine just fine, provided I first de-curl it. Harman FB AL gloss does have problems; the printer leaves barely visible roller marks along the length of the page. I count this no great loss, however, as the paper just doesn't look very nice with my images; too glossy, and a distracting fine-textured sparkle in glancing light. To be honest, HP's professional satin looks nicer.
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rdonson
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 10:13:01 AM »
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My experiences echo Geoff's.  I'm happy with the Z3100 for what I do.  

Christopher we know you were unhappy with the Z.  Glad to hear that you love your new Epson.
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Ron
dandeliondigital
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2008, 10:13:44 AM »
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I've had some of the same experiences, but I'm inclined to cut HP some slack here. After all, we're using a huge range of papers from independent vendors with widely differing coating technologies over which HP has absolutely no control. They can't know in advance every possible permutation of paper and coating the machine will have to deal with.

My experience so far is that the Z3100 (24") handles all of HP's papers without any problem at all—no scratches or roller marks. It handles most of Epson's papers with equal aplomb. I've had no trouble with most of Hahnemuhle's papers. The newer fiber/gloss papers are tougher. Crane silver rag goes through my machine just fine, provided I first de-curl it. Harman FB AL gloss does have problems; the printer leaves barely visible roller marks along the length of the page. I count this no great loss, however, as the paper just doesn't look very nice with my images; too glossy, and a distracting fine-textured sparkle in glancing light. To be honest, HP's professional satin looks nicer.
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Hi Geoff,
I have to ask if _your Z3100_ to which you are refering has had the rollers replaced with newly designed (larger softer) rollers that are part of the paper transport fix I have read about?

Mine has not. I am experiencing, since last July, amazingly pronounced marks on HP Premium ID Glossy which is shocking because this is a very RC-like plastic paper. Also, it chewed through 3 different fiberprint type papers I have tested. Bad for the photographer in me because I cannot use plastic papers and feel good about it.

HP's latest Technical Newsletter called ""How to profile Other Commercially available Paper on the Z Series - Updated for 6.0.0.8 FW doesn't ever mention any of these roller marks issues. The newsletter makes it sound like there shouldn't be a problem. It mentions proper settings for fibaprint type papers, and really makes me feel like my Cadillac Model Z3100ps GP has got a wheel in the ditch.

For a printer with the word "PHOTO" in it's moniker, so far it cannot successfully print out a successful print on too many diffrent PHOTO types of media because of this issue. I have been waiting over 6 months, and things are currently in play. I have my fingers crossed. Wish me luck.

I will be so happy on  the day I can report success. I actually love very many features of this printer, but this one problem is a killer.

So long for now, TOM
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