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Author Topic: H'blad drops the other shoe...  (Read 27202 times)
izaack
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« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2007, 11:44:27 AM »
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This guy doesn't seem too troubled by Hasselblad. Why -- because he's out shooting pictures, and exploring the country, and living life, instead of worrying about whether he's got the latest/greatest gear. You think he gives one shit about the latest firmware?

http://www.syewilliams.com/sye/lightroom_sye.html

This is a loving, gentle Public Service Announcement, about staying tuned to what's important.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Seems to me that he'd have done just as well, if not better, with a Canon 1DM3, 1DsM3, 5D or a Nikon D2Xs or D3.

Ain't matter none what kinda of format he has in his purty little hands. Sheeiit! Them some mighty fine pitchures, I says.
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thsinar
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« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2007, 01:06:53 PM »
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Dear hcubell,

Once again: I have no prerogative and absolutely no right  to speak in the name of Leaf, of F&H, of DSM or any other company than the one I am representing here, namely Sinar AG Switzerland, and this whatever are the agreements and/or contracts signed by the parties involved. I did nowhere say or suggest that those companies are in control of decisions, but that I do not wish and cannot speak for them. I simply ask here not being distorted in what I am writing and saying. Please do understand this situation and respect it as such.

Then, I wish to say it again, I have not accused you of being disrespectful of my person, but asked for respect of my answers given to you. Which in other words can be translated by "showing consideration and thoughtfulness in relation to my answers". I think I have the right to ask for this and that it is not at all agressive wording used against you.

And, my purpose is not being here to try to sell cameras, believe me. My sole reason to be here since nearly 1 year ago, is solely to try to give the right and accurate information to people in need of it, AND to correct misinformation and rumours spread by some others, with purpose or not. That is my main concern, nothing else.

Finally, if that is what you wanted to "prove", that the Sinar Hy6 does not provide more than the H2F, than you have now the information, and there is no need to continue this discussion any further.

Thank you and best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry:
If Sinar/Jenoptic(which for practical purposes are one and the same company)have legal control over the decision as to which MFDBs can electronically communicate with Hy6 cameras from Rollei, Sinar and Leaf, I do not feel it is candid to suggest that Rollei and Leaf are in control of those decisions and I should look to their statements on the subject. Moreover, the continuing confusion over this issue, fueled now by DSM's statements, is really bad for Sinar's efforts to market its version of the Hy6. DSM is creating the impression in the marketplace that it is offering a variant of the Hy6 that will be fully compatible with Phase backs.

You are perfectly free to decline to answer any question, and that I will "respect." However, I think it is unfair to accuse me of being "disrespectful" if you do provide an answer that is not responsive  to my question and I ask for you to try again.  This is an internet forum in which you are trying to sell cameras/backs, not a monarchy. [G]

BTW, your statement above about the lack of electronic communication between a Sinar Hy6 and a Phase back does clarify that that the Sinar Hy6 will provide the same, limited functionality  as a Hasselblad H2F with a Phase back(i.e., if Phase ever makes an adapter for a Sinar Hy6).
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »
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Seems to me that he'd have done just as well, if not better, with a Canon 1DM3, 1DsM3, 5D or a Nikon D2Xs or D3.

Ain't matter none what kinda of format he has in his purty little hands. Sheeiit! Them some mighty fine pitchures, I says.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145725\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, this has certainly been worth looking at ...

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2007, 04:59:19 PM »
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Well, this has certainly been worth looking at ...

Edmund
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Speaking about worth looking at.. It would be neat if LEAF looked at the beautiful LCD on the back of the H3DII. What a wonderful LCD, even in bright sunlight! For $30kUS it's a great camera, and very light. Too bad no Dalsa sensor.

David
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izaack
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2007, 03:29:23 AM »
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Speaking about worth looking at.. It would be neat if LEAF looked at the beautiful LCD on the back of the H3DII. What a wonderful LCD, even in bright sunlight! For $30kUS it's a great camera, and very light. Too bad no Dalsa sensor.

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145778\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Leaf should be looking at the gobsmackingly beautiful one on the back of the Nikon D300 and ask itself how is it Nikon can squeeze that into a camera costing below $2000.00 and it can't. Mamma!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 03:31:54 AM by izaack » Logged
TechTalk
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2007, 08:59:36 PM »
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For those that read the "What's New" article regarding the H2 and H2F, I'd like to correct one bit of misinformation. The article stated: "Therefore anyone who currently owns an H series Hasselblad and a medium format back from another manufacturer will not be able to buy a new body in future, in the event their current H1 or H2 fails, which will mean having to abandon their back."

This is obviously not true. Anyone with an "H" mount digital back can use that back on the H2F with a sync cable. Using a sync cable seems far less drastic to me than "having to abandon their back".

More fact and less emotion would be a good thing in reporting news.
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MarkKay
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« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2007, 09:05:02 PM »
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Does anyone know the specs on the H2F? Has this information been released?  How will it be different than the current H2 other than the need for the sync cable

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For those that read the "What's New" article regarding the H2 and H2F, I'd like to correct one bit of misinformation. The article stated: "Therefore anyone who currently owns an H series Hasselblad and a medium format back from another manufacturer will not be able to buy a new body in future, in the event their current H1 or H2 fails, which will mean having to abandon their back."

This is obviously not true. Anyone with an "H" mount digital back can use that back on the H2F with a sync cable. Using a sync cable seems far less drastic to me than "having to abandon their back".

More fact and less emotion would be a good thing in reporting news.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2007, 06:45:40 AM »
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Does anyone know the specs on the H2F? Has this information been released?  How will it be different than the current H2 other than the need for the sync cable
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The sync cable means A LOT! For exemple no data transfered from the lens or body to the back. No exif data or picture properties.
And in the H2F... No histogram, no info about battery time, remaining shots. No ISO info... ...
If my H2 breaks I see very difficult to dowgrade to a H2F. If replacements weren't avaible I think I'd change system.
I think maybe Michael has been a little "warm", but he's right. If my h2 is now discontinued I don't see the point of buying another hasselblad to hang my PhaseOne. Actually, even being 20% cheaper the H2F would cost me more than my H2 because of a great deal from my dealer.  And I'm not paying more to "downgrade". So my options would be to go H3D or to change direction with PhaseOne.

But if the H2 is dead then it's dead. I won't buy another dead system.
Right now I will go with the H2/P21 because I consider it the best MF camera in the market. I'm actually happy that I can afford it so I won't complain. If it breaks I hope it can be repaired and if not, well then will see.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 09:28:10 AM by samuel_js » Logged
michael
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2007, 08:06:09 AM »
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Using a sync cable seems far less drastic to me than "having to abandon their back".

More fact and less emotion would be a good thing in reporting news.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js. To accuse me of "misinformation" based on this is a bit over the top, don't you think? Apparently not.

One can always find an argument to counter another. But when that argument flies in the face of real-world needs its use rings hollow.

Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is.

Michael
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Dustbak
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2007, 09:21:19 AM »
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We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js. To accuse me of "misinformation" based on this is a bit over the top, don't you think? Apparently not.

One can always find an argument to counter another. But when that argument flies in the face of real-world needs its use rings hollow.

Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146090\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry to fall into repetition here but it is not just non-Hasselblad backs. It is also every other Imacon/Hasselblad back with the exeption of H3 backs.
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clayh
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2007, 09:22:41 AM »
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I agree, and really think that Hasselblad may be shooting themselves in the foot with this move. I hope that Phase One is looking at another comparable MF system to get aligned with.

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Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is.

Michael
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2007, 10:02:41 AM »
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We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146090\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It think it will be not too much of a killer.

someone can make a rigid cable of exactly the right lenth with bends in all the right places

they  could even cast some form of shell for it

I take in it is from the PC socket on the side of the H to the bottom of the back

very different from lens cables which are a PITA

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2007, 11:19:10 AM »
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Personally, I wish Hassy would physically meld the body and back --
just like my Canon 1Ds; although I would admit that sensor cleaning
might be a challenge. But, maybe the sensor wouldn't get as dirty?

Secondly, I'm waiting for my H3DII-39 to replace my H3D-39. I also
trade in my cars every 2-3 years; I'm always looking for newer
technology, even though at times it's not always better! I've never
expected to be able to use the engine, or the radio, or the seats from
the older vehicle for the newer.

I prefer an integrated united product rather than a mix & match
approach. That's possibly related to working with radiology equipment
for 30 years and seeing the long-term results of the mix & match
approach. I've shot with an H1+Phase P45: it functioned but was a
veritable PITA.

As someone said, "The market will dictate the outcome.", or something
to that effect.
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Paul Prachun
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« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2007, 03:04:30 PM »
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I shoot for money, and I shoot for personal. I do both. You've got to do both to maintain balance and keep the spark alive.

I am forced to keep up with this Tech Mess just like the next guy who shoots for money. I do not employ a full time Tech. If I don't keep up with the infinite amount of Daily Details That Might Bite You In The Ass, I risk getting in trouble on a job.

By the same token, this Tech Mess can totally get way out of hand, and can start to consume your (my) life. Every now and then, I just lose it, and want to unload it all, and go back to shooting 665 negs and clearing them in a bucket. Sometimes, your hands just need to touch something organic. You can't live your entire life engulfed in zeroes and ones, and firmware, and color profiles. It will snuff the spark.

I really love that Quicktime movie that that guy posted. It's great how it's not one of those Grab My Crotch, Look How Cool I Am type things that you see more and more lately. I won't name any names. I'd drink a beer with that Sye guy any time. Here's another very good editorial shooter -- I guarantee you her version of "firmware" is having a travel case that's hard enough so that her old-time cameras don't get dented. It's about the vision, not the gear.

http://www.cassbird.com

Check out her Polaroid Book -- just try to get THAT kind of quality out of these forty thousand dollar digital cameras. I dare you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cass really rocks. Very natural and inspiring stuff. Thanks for sharing the url. She shows really well how simple photography can be done. No nonsense about resolution and or the "right" focuspoint. Photography as I like it.
Too bad a high profile photographer needs to keep up with what's less, to stay in business. Guess not all clients know what reak quality is about. But hey, what else is new. Can't wait to see a 16mp 5D show up and be done with the whole tech ratrace  
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TechTalk
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« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2007, 07:19:21 PM »
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We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js. To accuse me of "misinformation" based on this is a bit over the top, don't you think? Apparently not.

One can always find an argument to counter another. But when that argument flies in the face of real-world needs its use rings hollow.

Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is.

Michael
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1) "We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js." Not a viable alternative?? Then using the back on a view camera with a Copal shutter is not a viable alternative? Don't people with Phase One and Leaf backs do that? You're obviously giving up some convenience features in where and how information is displayed or transferred and triggering the back with a cable on the H2F, but that does not prevent you from taking pictures with exactly the same image quality as before and seems far more reasonable, in my personal view, than telling people that they are "having to abandon their back". You're advising users to "abandon their back" rather than face the trauma of connecting a sync cable and making great looking images? Lets compare the options, abandon your digital back or connect a sync cable–I'm happy to allow the reader to decide which seems to be the more reasoned option.

2) "To accuse me of "misinformation" based on this is a bit over the top, don't you think? Apparently not." No, I think telling people that they must "abandon their back" is a bit over the top–don't you think? Obviously not, as you appear to believe that this is the only course of action.

You could have replied, "O.K, you don't really have to abandon your back. It still works with a cable, but I'm extremely unhappy with the loss of features with the replacement of the H2 with the H2F and I think it's an outrageous move by Hasselblad!" It is not my place, of course, to tell you what you should or shouldn't say, I'm just giving an example of what "could" be said that would at least be accurate, while still expressing a strong opinion. We can all say whatever we like, but I for one appreciate accuracy. So please let me repeat for those that still might believe otherwise, you do NOT have to "abandon your back" if you replace an H2 with an H2F, but you do have to give up some features. You do have a choice, what you decide is up to you.

3) "Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is." I agree with your first sentence. For some people, Hasselblad's direction is a dead end. They are obviously headed in the direction of making integrated camera and back systems and away from the money losing proposition of  selling medium-format cameras to integrate with other products. No doubt about it.

I disagree that the emperor is naked. He's still wearing his underwear. Had Hasselblad discontinued the H2 with no replacement at all, that would be "stark naked" in my view. But then others have more vivid imaginations than I do.

4) Let me thank you for providing a forum for people to discuss and debate and even disagree on these topics. I should further say, that while we disagree and from my perspective the statement that I quoted and made a big fuss about is misinformation, I respect you as an individual and as a person (with strong views), while strongly disagreeing with your choice of words.
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John Camp
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« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2007, 10:37:52 PM »
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Hey, Thierry,

I've seen ads for the HY6 in some magazines, but when are they actually going to come out? I thought they were supposed to be here a long time ago. (I don't keep track of this stuff, so this is an honest question.) Is there a firm date for shipping?

JC
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thsinar
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« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2007, 10:52:38 PM »
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Dear John,

we have started shipment of the first 9 units to some of our distributors. Production is in its starting phase and will reach full capacity in a few weeks. We anyway plan to deliver more units in the coming and following weeks.

This means that depending where you are located, you might be able see the Sinar Hy6 or not. There will obviously be at least 2 units at the Photo Plus starting this 18th of October.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hey, Thierry,

I've seen ads for the HY6 in some magazines, but when are they actually going to come out? I thought they were supposed to be here a long time ago. (I don't keep track of this stuff, so this is an honest question.) Is there a firm date for shipping?

JC
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2007, 10:56:12 PM »
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1) "We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js." Not a viable alternative?? Then using the back on a view camera with a Copal shutter is not a viable alternative? Don't people with Phase One and Leaf backs do that? You're obviously giving up some convenience features in where and how information is displayed or transferred and triggering the back with a cable on the H2F, but that does not prevent you from taking pictures with exactly the same image quality as before and seems far more reasonable, in my personal view, than telling people that they are "having to abandon their back". You're advising users to "abandon their back" rather than face the trauma of connecting a sync cable and making great looking images? Lets compare the options, abandon your digital back or connect a sync cable–I'm happy to allow the reader to decide which seems to be the more reasoned option.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It boils down to shooting styles.

For quick shooters used to working with a DSLR, the very idea that the ISO setting of the back will not be taken into account by the metering system of the body makes the whole thing look like it is unusable.

For those still used to shooting with 4x5, this is pretty much a non issue.

What would personnally prevent me from investing in the H system today (I am a previous H1 user) is the lack of support of their 28 mm lens for cameras other than the H3D. This is a complete/total/absolute show stopper for anyone trying to shoot landscape IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
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« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2007, 11:58:20 PM »
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Hi,

"But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked."

No he is naked, but got a big gun...

Erik
Quote
We'll, a cable is simply not a viable alternative, as has been well pointed out by Samuel-js. To accuse me of "misinformation" based on this is a bit over the top, don't you think? Apparently not.

One can always find an argument to counter another. But when that argument flies in the face of real-world needs its use rings hollow.

Why not just accept the fact that for some people with non-Hasselblad medium format backs that system has now become a dead end? If that's what Hasselblad wants to do, then they will eventually realize the consequences, one way or the other. But let's not posture and pretend that the emperor isn't stark naked. He most definitely is.

Michael
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paulhu
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« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2007, 07:48:49 AM »
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What would personnally prevent me from investing in the H system today (I am a previous H1 user) is the lack of support of their 28 mm lens for cameras other than the H3D. This is a complete/total/absolute show stopper for anyone trying to shoot landscape IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What happend to the days before 28mm lens was available?  Do photographers just don't shoot landscape, or do they use the 35mm?  Just my $0.02
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