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Author Topic: Where To For Phase One?  (Read 52667 times)
pss
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 03:08:44 PM »
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They will probably be putting the contax 645 back on the map. Carl zeiss is cut-off to a channal for selling their fine lenses, but still own the Contax 645 brand and designes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the contax has the same issues mamiya has (and many more)...sync speed....any new MF system must have in lens shutters....
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pss
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2007, 03:27:07 PM »
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Interesting that you say Fuji was involved in the merger of Hasselblad and Imacon. I've searched and can't find any reference to any Fuji investment. Can you supply a link or source for this? Thanks in advance for any reference you can supply as I'm interested in the business aspects as well as the technology.

As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


fuji builds the hasselblad lenses (as a hasselblad employee you should know that)

many big business deals are done that way...companies sell and buy others for 1$ (nominal fees)...does not mean you can walk in and buy it for 2....

i don't know the numbers, but the RB/RZ was THE system a couple of years ago.....i know a lot of commercial photographers and most of them have owned that system and most of them still do.... nothing better then to find out that those "old" (still amazing!) lenses can work on a back, and it might save you a bundle!.....
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pss
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2007, 03:33:50 PM »
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there is also the issue of sensor size.....kodak builds both hasselblads and phases sensors (and btw owns leaf....so if someone is putting on the screws in the market, kodak has something to say as well...) and we know that the next generation chips are around the corner....more resolution, higher asa, faster....BIGGER?
all kodak and dalsa have to do is make the chips bigger and the H3D is old news again....and everybody who bought it has to abandon and go with the (inevitable) H4D....and of course new lenses....
these sensor would make the Hy6 and the RZ even more valuable...
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vgogolak
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 03:41:46 PM »
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it all comes down to investment money. As I understand (from Lance Shad a year ago) Phase and Zeiss had some good discussion on taking Contax back out in mkt but that Kyocera had put a high price on the Contax line machinery. Maybe if Some central european gp GE CZ etc could gear up, the designs are not that complex.
With modern CAD and such the lenses woulkd be tricky however. There are some Zeiss Hartblei designs that have great glass, so who knows, lots of possibilities.
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2007, 03:46:54 PM »
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Does someone on this forum really think the Hy6 will be the ultimate camera system, or even better than the H system? At this moment it is only thin air with a silver lining from a marketing machinery.
The moment peolple have to start paying real monny for it, a lot of " so-called" buyers will suddenly encounter other necesseties that need their monney first. It is not because this is a bit of an  anti hassie forum that in the real world all people will react the same way. At this moment most photographers in MF are working HassieH and a large amount with Hassie backs as well. It has proven that it is a solid system over the past years ( yes there where problems but everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's, and i know because i have had several).
It is not that easy to put a camera in the market and even for the Hy6 or Afi the battle isn't won....yet.
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amsp
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2007, 03:54:43 PM »
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I think it's a pretty safe bet that Phase has some kind of plan for the future, it's not like the biggest player in digital backs is just going to throw in the towel and walk away. I just wish they were more communicative with their customers about it. Personally I'd like to see a co-operation with Mamiya and the development of an AFDIII. Also, a new line of AF leaf shutter lenses would be VERY nice. Other than the slow sync my AFD is a champ that never lets me down.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 04:33:58 PM »
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anyone who bought a back made (in a way) 2 commitments...one to the back and one to the camera....

Except those of us who have back with an adapter system. A Sinar/H2 user can now dump the H2 on ebay and get a Hy6 instead, keeping his old back.

This independence is what really got me looking hard at Sinar in the first place. Everyone should consider the implications.
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2007, 04:47:18 PM »
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the contax has the same issues mamiya has (and many more)...sync speed....any new MF system must have in lens shutters....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2007, 04:51:03 PM »
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it all comes down to investment money. As I understand (from Lance Shad a year ago) Phase and Zeiss had some good discussion on taking Contax back out in mkt but that Kyocera had put a high price on the Contax line machinery.

I heard that Kyocera held the sole rights to manufacture under the Contax brand, so no-one else can make anything. It's not a matter of production cost.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2007, 04:51:28 PM »
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Except those of us who have back with an adapter system. A Sinar/H2 user can now dump the H2 on ebay and get a Hy6 instead, keeping his old back.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Except those who need wideangle ..

More likely to buy a spare H2 and hope for the best

Anyway this H2F or whatever it is called, just needs a synch cable

unpleasant - but it would not be impossible to make one that was rigid and moulded to the profile of the camera/back a bit like 'camera armour' with a lead in it

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2007, 04:53:55 PM »
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everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's, and i know because i have had several).

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which misery are you talking about?Huh
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2007, 04:56:34 PM »
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Does someone on this forum really think the Hy6 will be the ultimate camera system, or even better than the H system? At this moment it is only thin air with a silver lining from a marketing machinery.

You must have missed Thierry's post last week. The first units have been shipped already. It's not thin air.

It may not be the ultimate camera system, but it has faster flash sync than the Hasselblad, and rumours suggest faster AF too. Plus you can use a WLF in either portrait or landscape mode, or change orientation easily while the camera is on the tripod. Some prefer the lenses too, but I accept that's a matter of personal taste. As are ergonomics.
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2007, 04:58:09 PM »
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... the Hy6 ... At this moment it is only thin air [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did handle a Sinar Hy6. Great camera so far...don't know what you're talking about?!

Warm regards
Heinrich
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 04:58:37 PM by heinrichvoelkel » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2007, 05:02:03 PM »
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unpleasant - but it would not be impossible to make one that was rigid and moulded to the profile of the camera/back a bit like 'camera armour' with a lead in it

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, but a sync cable means no EXIF data and no communication between camera and back. So you need to remember to change iso settings on both every time, for example. Yes it will work but it's far from elegant. I am in the same situation presently with my Rollei 6008AF/e22 - one of the reasons I look forward to upgrading to a Hy6 when I can.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2007, 05:04:22 PM »
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everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's

What misery? It's my current workhorse.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
jonstewart
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2007, 05:36:44 PM »
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Interesting that you say Fuji was involved in the merger of Hasselblad and Imacon. I've searched and can't find any reference to any Fuji investment. Can you supply a link or source for this? Thanks in advance for any reference you can supply as I'm interested in the business aspects as well as the technology.

As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No sorry.
Based on speculation at the time, that there was communication between those 3 companies for some time and an agreed strategy on a range of matters. While just speculation, it might just fit what has happened!
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Jon Stewart

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TechTalk
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2007, 05:55:24 PM »
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fuji builds the hasselblad lenses (as a hasselblad employee you should know that)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In what way does subcontracting optical manufacturing and assembly to Fuji for lenses and shutters, designed by Hasselblad, make them an investor in a merger? I'm sure you were trying to make a point, but I'm not able to find it.

I don't work for Hasselblad and never have. I do have an interest in the technology and business of photography. What does not interest me are snap judgements, emotional rants or misinformation–but then that wouldn't interest you either... would it?
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TechTalk
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« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2007, 06:03:39 PM »
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No sorry.
Based on speculation at the time, that there was communication between those 3 companies for some time and an agreed strategy on a range of matters. While just speculation, it might just fit what has happened!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146001\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the honest reply. Speculation is what I was suspecting.

The real story is simple. The parent company of Hasselblad (Shiro Group) had a money losing company and speculated that buying Imacon and merging it with Hasselblad would make both companies stronger and Hasselblad profitable again. That speculation turned out to be true.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2007, 06:24:08 PM »
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Hi
I don't think Mamiya & Phase have to merge. But they could do package deals, If you bought a P45+
you get a 645 AFDII body plus a discounted lens. I still think if Phase got behind the ZD camera, ie version II which an improved buffer, bigger sensor, 3" screen, they would not have to do much to bring this camera to a new level. The camera is already built. Plus Mamiya have a great range of lenses from the 28 to 300 with 3 zooms.
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Denis Montalbetti
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TechTalk
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2007, 06:40:01 PM »
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many big business deals are done that way...companies sell and buy others for 1$ (nominal fees)...does not mean you can walk in and buy it for 2....

i don't know the numbers, but the RB/RZ was THE system a couple of years ago.....i know a lot of commercial photographers and most of them have owned that system and most of them still do.... nothing better then to find out that those "old" (still amazing!) lenses can work on a back, and it might save you a bundle!.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm guessing that you read the part where I stated "plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt". I can't really tell.

Yes, it is not unusual in the business world that a company (like Mamiya's camera/optical division) that has been losing money and racking up debt for a long time is purchased for very little cash along with the transfer of debt. It is a path for a small company to expand with little cash outlay, provided they think the company acquired can be turned around and generate enough income to cover the debt.

Every business also has a break-even point. Below a certain volume of sales, you lose money. Above a certain volume of sales you make money. The problem with medium-format camera sales is there is not enough volume for any company to make the break-even point. The only way to survive is to combine that activity with something else, that when combined will make money (Hasselblad). Otherwise you stop production (Bronica, Contax, Fuji), stay afloat with other activities that supply needed capital (Mamiya, Rollei) or find partners to invest capital that keep you breathing (Mamiya, Rollei). It's basic financial reality and a business can only lose money for so long before creditors or a corporate board gives it a dose of reality.
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