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Author Topic: Where To For Phase One?  (Read 55192 times)
canmiya
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« Reply #200 on: November 03, 2007, 05:13:18 PM »
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Im not saying its a bad thing

..........If they were doing those things behind the scenes with an announcement soon I dont think they would have made this move

I imagine that sinar dont want phase on the Hy6 and the contax option is kind of hindered by the flash synch and (I believe) slow AF which doesnt make it a competeing system anyway even if they had access

as I said  my comment

S
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i'm not sure i agree with your conclusion regarding activities "behind the scene."  
from a marketing perspective, there are more people out here shooting with "mix and match" bodies and backs than with a matched set.  many of us are quite content with our current camera bodies and lenses and may not want to invest in a new camera and set of lenses.  what phase is effectively saying is "we have your back" ( no pun intended)  something which no one else has stepped up to the plate and said as the landscape changes.  as a mamiya user, it certainly did get my attention. the phase announcements do not in any way preclude them from offering their own body or having discussions with jenoptik regarding the hy6.  for the people just getting their feet wet with mfd, a mint contax 645 kit for under $2 and a refurbed back, may be much more attractive than some of the integrated bundles which are being offered.  
interestingly enough even with the afi due to arrive, leaf america has been offering the following mamiya related promo:

"Special Offer – Between August 1, 2007 and December 31, 2007, with
the purchase of any new Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back in Mamiya AFD mount, photographers will receive a Mamiya 645AFD II camera free-of-charge (a $2,990 value) directly from Leaf America.

In addition, Photographers can purchase the first lens at regular price and receive a second lens, of equal or lesser value, for FREE. There are no restrictions on lens selections, it is completely based on what the photographer needs. The second lens must be equal to or less than the value of the first lens. (Up to an additional $2,495 savings) Orders for Mamiya product must be placed at the same time as the back on a single purchase order
."

i have to say i was surprised to see this leaf promo (and yes i do understand the relationship between the mac group which markets mamiya in the u.s and leaf america) given the anticipated arrival of the afi.
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pprdigital
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« Reply #201 on: November 03, 2007, 05:27:15 PM »
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i'm not sure i agree with your conclusion regarding activities "behind the scene." 
from a marketing perspective, there are more people out here shooting with "mix and match" bodies and backs than with a matched set.  many of us are quite content with our current camera bodies and lenses and may not want to invest in a new camera and set of lenses.  what phase is effectively saying is "we have your back" ( no pun intended)  something which no one else has stepped up to the plate and said as the landscape changes.  as a mamiya user, it certainly did get my attention. the phase announcements do not in any way preclude them from offering their own body or having discussions with jenoptik regarding the hy6.  for the people just getting their feet wet with mfd, a mint contax 645 kit for under $2 and a refurbed back, may be much more attractive than some of the integrated bundles which are being offered. 
interestingly enough even with the afi due to arrive, leaf america has been offering the following mamiya related promo:

"Special Offer – Between August 1, 2007 and December 31, 2007, with
the purchase of any new Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back in Mamiya AFD mount, photographers will receive a Mamiya 645AFD II camera free-of-charge (a $2,990 value) directly from Leaf America.

In addition, Photographers can purchase the first lens at regular price and receive a second lens, of equal or lesser value, for FREE. There are no restrictions on lens selections, it is completely based on what the photographer needs. The second lens must be equal to or less than the value of the first lens. (Up to an additional $2,495 savings) Orders for Mamiya product must be placed at the same time as the back on a single purchase order
."

i have to say i was surprised to see this leaf promo (and yes i do understand the relationship between the mac group which markets mamiya in the u.s and leaf america) given the anticipated arrival of the afi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.

I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #202 on: November 03, 2007, 06:24:29 PM »
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The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.

I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Down here in Sydney the Mamiya agency became available last year & L&P photo picked it up. They are also the agents for Phase One. That was announced in Jan 07. Sun studios is the agent for Sinar/Leaf & the Hy6 camera. Back to the US ,Hallmark school of photography purchased 250 Aptus 22 backs ,July 2006( Mamiya mount). From what I understand the students have to purchase the Mamiya 645 AFD camera. To me this makes sense as this is more affordable for the students plus it gets them using Mamiya from the start. Back to Phase One, from what I am hearing from L&P is that PO is working closer (talking, better communication) with Mamiya. Also we have to take into account that the new owners of Mamiya took the company over on Sept 1/06. We will just have to wait & see. If Phase One really wants to shake up the market, get behind the ZD camera & rebuild it @ a very competitive price.
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Denis Montalbetti
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canmiya
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« Reply #203 on: November 03, 2007, 07:15:13 PM »
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The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.

I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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i agree with your comments about the integrated platform being a long term solution.  we are in what i would call an interim or transition period right now.  the phase one announcement seems to recognize this in a manner which at least imo, no other company has articulated.
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pprdigital
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« Reply #204 on: November 03, 2007, 07:41:15 PM »
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i agree with your comments about the integrated platform being a long term solution.  we are in what i would call an interim or transition period right now.  the phase one announcement seems to recognize this in a manner which at least imo, no other company has articulated.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Part of this is because Phase One currently doesn't have a solution. Their motivation for articulating the transitional period is because that is the only thing they can do at this point. Hassleblad beat everyone to the punch by purchasing Imacon, and that merger has gone relatively well. But Hasselblad has handled the transitional period poorly in my opinion with regard to existing users of their products. But the product itself - after some initial growing pains - is really starting to bear fruit for them.

Leaf and Sinar are now on the road forward with integrated solutions. They are not handling it (so far) as clumsily as Hasselblad, although neither had an existing medium format camera that had penetrated the market to the extent of the H camera, so they didn't face that dilemma with regard to exitsing users.

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #205 on: November 03, 2007, 10:12:41 PM »
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Perhaps someone could point out to me the benefit of Phase's camera body backup programme. All they will do is sell you a body the same as any other shop would, it seems.
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david o
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« Reply #206 on: November 04, 2007, 01:54:17 AM »
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I think Phase try to say "don't panic" we are still here...
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #207 on: November 04, 2007, 04:57:51 AM »
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OTOH, to me this sounds a bit panicky (spelling?) from Phase One´s part.
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Dinarius
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« Reply #208 on: November 04, 2007, 07:51:34 AM »
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Perhaps someone could point out to me the benefit of Phase's camera body backup programme. All they will do is sell you a body the same as any other shop would, it seems.
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I totally agree. This strategy, if indeed it is a strategy, is a mystery to me.

As I pointed out earlier, Phase have the same "one size fits all" approach with their backs as Microsoft have with Windows. They don't need to make/supply/backup cameras, anymore than Microsoft needs to make computers. If this rumour is true, it is total BS in my opinion.

As for panic: why? What's to panic about? They offer maximum flexibility, something which Hassie certainly does not do.

Relax!  

D.

ps. That said, if you have two Mamiya RB67 bodies, six lenses and tons of accessories (built up over many years in this business) and you want to get into MFDB do you:

1. Put a back on the RB67 and accept the second-rate glass (i.e. not getting full value for the investment in the high-res sensor) and the multiplier affect.

2. Bite the bullet and sell everything? (RB gear now has terrible second-hand value.)

3. Do something else?

Finally, anyone on this thread already using an MFDB on an RB67?

Thanks. D.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 07:53:06 AM by Dinarius » Logged
pprdigital
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« Reply #209 on: November 04, 2007, 08:16:52 AM »
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They don't need to make/supply/backup cameras, anymore than Microsoft needs to make computers. If this rumour is true, it is total BS in my opinion.


D.


I disagree here. They very much do need to make/supply some sort of camera. The position they are in now - as a comparison to Microsoft -  is as if all the computer manufacturers suddenly came out with their own operating systems.

I am hoping that Phase One is successful in getting a camera platform to develop on. Even though I do not sell Phase One, I don't believe market attrition benefits the medium format industry. More choice equals more interest and desire, more competition for better product.

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #210 on: November 04, 2007, 11:31:31 AM »
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Part of this is because Phase One currently doesn't have a solution. Their motivation for articulating the transitional period is because that is the only thing they can do at this point. Hassleblad beat everyone to the punch by purchasing Imacon, and that merger has gone relatively well. But Hasselblad has handled the transitional period poorly in my opinion with regard to existing users of their products. But the product itself - after some initial growing pains - is really starting to bear fruit for them.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I suspect you're right Steve. Feels like a slightly pointless and mildly desperate measure by Phase One.

I'm starting to wish I'd kept my hand in my pocket and not bought that P45+ in a V series mount. It's a combination that does everything I need a camera to do, so not a tragedy, but I smell collapsing resale values!
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samuel_js
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« Reply #211 on: November 04, 2007, 02:04:25 PM »
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I suspect you're right Steve. Feels like a slightly pointless and mildly desperate measure by Phase One.

I'm starting to wish I'd kept my hand in my pocket and not bought that P45+ in a V series mount. It's a combination that does everything I need a camera to do, so not a tragedy, but I smell collapsing resale values!
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So why would you sell it if it does everything you need? The best thing you can do if you're worried about the reseal value is to buy a P45 refit. Same image quality and much cheaper. The only thing you get with the plus series is a better screen.
I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
Even if my H2 is discontinued now, I can still put any DB on the market that I like or upgrade to another phaseone DB when I want. Or just stay whith what I've got.
The truth is that PhaseOne is still an open platform and that's what they are telling to their customers.
I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...

PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 02:13:22 PM by samuel_js » Logged
vjbelle
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« Reply #212 on: November 04, 2007, 04:41:22 PM »
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I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...

PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
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Very well put!!  Hasselblad would like everyone to completely freak out and get rid of everything they own and put their hard earned dollars into Hasselblad's corporate pockets.  However, Phase must have some sort of 'real' solution to survive.  The train has left the station, but still moving just slow enough to jump on..... Phase had better have a real plan!!

Victor
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #213 on: November 04, 2007, 05:26:17 PM »
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So why would you sell it if it does everything you need? The best thing you can do if you're worried about the reseal value is to buy a P45 refit. Same image quality and much cheaper. The only thing you get with the plus series is a better screen.
I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
Even if my H2 is discontinued now, I can still put any DB on the market that I like or upgrade to another phaseone DB when I want. Or just stay whith what I've got.
The truth is that PhaseOne is still an open platform and that's what they are telling to their customers.
I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...

PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I said in my post that it wasn't a tragedy, so I don't think I can be accused of "freaking out"! However, looking at the H28mm correction software, and the similar software/lens integration that Canon plans for the 1Ds MkIII, I think this may be the way the digital world's moving. And, given that I mainly shoot architecture, perfect distortion correction might be an interesting development. The other thing to consider is that Phase One are the market leader in MFDBs, and with the frentic pace of change it's not unreasonable to assume that leadership grants some scale advantages.

Seems to me that if Phase One are entering Phase Two in their market share prospects, then I can't feel quite as confident in their future development plans, nor in their product guarantees.

Not freaking out you understand, just casting a rational eye over tomorrow's possibilities.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #214 on: November 04, 2007, 06:13:58 PM »
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I said in my post that it wasn't a tragedy, so I don't think I can be accused of "freaking out"! However, looking at the H28mm correction software, and the similar software/lens integration that Canon plans for the 1Ds MkIII, I think this may be the way the digital world's moving. And, given that I mainly shoot architecture, perfect distortion correction might be an interesting development. The other thing to consider is that Phase One are the market leader in MFDBs, and with the frentic pace of change it's not unreasonable to assume that leadership grants some scale advantages.

Seems to me that if Phase One are entering Phase Two in their market share prospects, then I can't feel quite as confident in their future development plans, nor in their product guarantees.

Not freaking out you understand, just casting a rational eye over tomorrow's possibilities.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gary, sorry I didn't point at you about people freaking out. People complains a lot here.  
But I think that when you make an investment of that kind, you should be also thinking that that's the gear you've paid to work with. Because if you're already thinking about upgrades and resale prices you're gonna feel hurt a lot, specially if you go Hasselblad. My H2 is just 2 months old...
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thsinar
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« Reply #215 on: November 04, 2007, 06:32:19 PM »
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Misinformation, Samuel!

The Sinar Hy6 IS NOT an "integrated" system like you understand and describe it, BUT a camera platform accepting ALL Sinarbacks by means of adapters. Thus you can take away the back and "sell" it separately. YES, the back is integrated by means of communication between back and camera, that's it and that's a bit different.

As for the price of such a "bundle" system (not integrated), I let you check with prices of separate products.

best regards,
Thierry

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I'm pretty sure that someone buying a .... SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.

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« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 06:35:04 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #216 on: November 04, 2007, 06:42:00 PM »
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Misinformation, Samuel!

The Sinar Hy6 IS NOT an "integrated" system like you understand and describe it, BUT a camera platform accepting ALL Sinarbacks by means of adapters. Thus you can take away the back and "sell" it separately. YES, the back is integrated by means of communication between back and camera, that's it and that's a bit different.

As for the price of such a "bundle" system (not integrated), I let you check with prices of separate products.

best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's right. I should say H3D/Afi. The Hy6 isn't closed in that way as it will mount any sinar back.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 06:44:20 PM by samuel_js » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #217 on: November 04, 2007, 06:42:14 PM »
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I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the contrary. Sinarback users won't have to sell their backs if they change their minds - just change adapter. For the same reason, Sinarbacks will always retain their value the best. Anyone can buy one for any platform and just add the adapter.

Phase owners can be stung very badly if they want to change mount. It's the main gripe I have against Phase. My Swedish friend paid 30,000 SEK ($4,683) for a change of mount of his P30 only 6 months after buying the P30 new. Sinar adapters run at about $1K.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 06:44:22 PM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #218 on: November 04, 2007, 06:44:57 PM »
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What's there to freak out about really? Your camera and DB will still produce beautiful images 10-20-30 years from now, out of production or not. And it will probably be serviceable long after you've stopped using it. I get the feeling a lot of people, here and on other forums, are more interested in having the latest toy than using it to create beautiful images.
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« Reply #219 on: November 04, 2007, 06:45:27 PM »
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no harm, am here to correct!

 

Thierry

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That's right. I should say H3D/Afi. The Hy6 isn't closed in that way as it will mount any sinar back.
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