Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Pigment vs Dye: does it matter anymore?  (Read 6385 times)
Abdulrahman Aljabri
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 260



WWW
« on: October 15, 2007, 08:04:54 AM »
ReplyReply

I really can't figure out which system to go with. I know for a fact there is a difference between the two types of ink systems. To summarize:


Dye: Vibrant and rich colors, excellent glossy prints

Pigment: Perfect grays and black&whites, long lasting


Those are general qualities, and I just have to wonder if they hold true anymore? Especially in the case of pigment inks. Is it true that new pigment color inks, like the one found on the Pixma 9500Pro, match Dye color prints, from the 9000 Pro for example?

If that is true, I guess there is really no advantage left for using Dye inks except for printing on gloss paper, which bigs the question is glossy paper that good, does it justify holding on to a lesser ink system? Beyond personal preference, what are the advantages of glossy paper?

It used to be (or at least I understood it that way) that Dye inks colors resembled more closely how pictures looked on monitors. Where as pigment inks colors were beautiful but looked like the traditional colors one often finds in high quality magazines and coffee table books.

Sorry if I am asking too many question, but where I am living right now I have no way to check both systems in real life, Therefore, please share with me your experience.

Thanks in advance!
Logged

MY SITE: ALJABRI MEDIA PRODUCTION

Abdulrahman - and yes its a long name but has a meaning "servant of the merciful". you can also call me abdul
DougMorgan
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 11:15:13 AM »
ReplyReply

Some random thoughts:

There are a bunch of other variables, such as are you selling the prints?   How often do you print?  What sorts of paper do you use?

The last dye printer I had faded visibly in a matter of months.  In a sunny location, even behind glass they were toast after a little over a year.    Just about any combination of current pigment ink and paper is going to give you years of life.  

On the other hand pigment printers (of any brand) are far more likely to clog and waste ink with cleaning cycles.  This seems to be mostly related to humidity and amount of use.  Newer printers waste a small amount of ink on a regular basis to keep it flowing.  If you only print occasionally this could be a significant cost.   John has posted numbers for the Canon 5000 that amount to $42 per month.  I'm sure the equivalent HP's aren't far behind though no one seems to have published any figures.   With epson I think it's going to be around this amount as well though it may be more sporadic, from personal experience, and seems to get worse with the age of the printer.  Since HP and Canon require head replacement periodically they may stay more or less constant over the life of the printer.

Pigment ink printers all use different blacks depending on the type of paper.  Be aware that some printers waste a large amount of ink to switch paper types.   Epson is the biggest offender but I would check with any printer.

For gloss the issue is usually gloss differential -- the ink is not as glossy as the paper and very dark shadows are noticeably less shiny than the white highlights that is mostly the shiny paper surface showing through a light dust of ink.    There are a couple ways around this but it basically involves coating the print with an evenly shiny surface.  There are seperate spray coatings or the printer can do it automatically (I think the epson R1800 pioneered this).     Personally I have had little call for gloss and if the print is to be mounted behind glass anyway then I think that other papers look better.   Coating the prints after the fact is a mixed bag and may require a fair amount of practice and/or equipment (like a good respirator).   If you are selling prints the unmounted bare print may look better glossy.

Rather than gloss there are a number of fine luster/pearl/satin papers that are usually a very good compromise.   In addition to less problems with the gloss the surface is not as fragile, especially the more textured surfaces, and seems to hold up a bit better to handling.  

If you are after a large format printer it may be tough to find many dye printers meant for photographs or other artwork.

Good luck......
Doug
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 11:30:09 AM by DougMorgan » Logged
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2007, 08:20:48 PM »
ReplyReply

The consensus is that the HP wastes almost no ink on its head maintenance, as it periodically warms up and fires just a few picoliter sized drops past a sensor to ensure the heads are still clear. It's a world of difference from the Epson with repeated deep cleaning cycles to clear recalcitrant nozzle clogs.

The difference in gamut between dye and pigment ink is also nothing like it once was. The current generation pigment printers from all three major inkjet makers are exceptionally good in this regard; you'll only notice a difference if you compare prints with highly saturated colors side by side, pigment vs. dye; and a few years down the road the dye prints will have dreadful color shifts due to differential fading.
Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1432



« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2007, 08:39:18 PM »
ReplyReply

I haven't kept up with dye based printers.  

In the past I avoided them because they couldn't tolerate moisture and faded faster than a politician's promise after an election.  I never felt good selling dye prints with those limitations.
Logged

Regards,
Ron
John Hollenberg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 770


« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 09:16:04 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
On the other hand pigment printers (of any brand) are far more likely to clog and waste ink with cleaning cycles.  This seems to be mostly related to humidity and amount of use.  Newer printers waste a small amount of ink on a regular basis to keep it flowing.  If you only print occasionally this could be a significant cost.   John has posted numbers for the Canon 5000 that amount to $42 per month. 

However, remember that my observation is only one data point.  It may be that earlier versions of firmware were more wasteful (as a matter of fact, we know they were, since before about version 1.25 on the iPF5000 the printer did a cleaning cycle without checking the nozzles to see if they needed it).  Now there is version 1.31 out, with a cryptic reference to perhaps doing less of the some of the cleaning cycles.  A guy who posts on the Wiki sent his data on ink use (obtained by weighing cartridges with an analyticl balance) to engineers at Canon, and they were reportedly studying it very carefully.  Version 1.31 may be partly the result of that data.

Bottom line is I don't know how much ink will be used for cleaning with firmware 1.31 if my printer just sits for 6 weeks without use, and how much will be used if I make one print every day for 6 weeks.  Hey, sounds like an interesting experiment...

--John
Logged
DougMorgan
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144


WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2007, 09:45:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The consensus is that the HP wastes almost no ink on its head maintenance, as it periodically warms up and fires just a few picoliter sized drops past a sensor to ensure the heads are still clear. It's a world of difference from the Epson with repeated deep cleaning cycles to clear recalcitrant nozzle clogs.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you have a link for this info as it might pertain to the z3100?  In researching my own next printer I could find nothing save an admonishment to never shut the z3100 off to prevent clogs.

Thanks
Doug
Logged
meyerweb
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 163


« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2007, 10:08:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Another advantage of pigment printers is that they will print on virtually any kind of paper. Dye printers tend to be much more picky in the media selection, especially if you care at all about longevity.

And frankly, the differences in print quality have gotten very small, even for color printing.
Logged
Abdulrahman Aljabri
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 260



WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 12:18:41 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Some random thoughts:

There are a bunch of other variables, such as are you selling the prints?   How often do you print?  What sorts of paper do you use?



The last dye printer I had faded visibly in a matter of months.  In a sunny location, even behind glass they were toast after a little over a year.    Just about any combination of current pigment ink and paper is going to give you years of life. 



Rather than gloss there are a number of fine luster/pearl/satin papers that are usually a very good compromise.   In addition to less problems with the gloss the surface is not as fragile, especially the more textured surfaces, and seems to hold up a bit better to handling.   


Good luck......
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks for the feedback! I will not be selling prints, but I will be giving away some to friends and family. Looking over a year length of time I think I will be printing once every week.

Fading in one year is pretty alarming, especially if you consider that the advantage in vibrancy over pigment may actually fade away in few months before the whole print is toast.

Looks like pigment is the way to go, but before I can confirm that I have to wonder about the other paper types as I only printed pictures on glossy paper through the local lab. The lab offered mat, but it looked crappy, though that may have been because of their whole system.
Logged

MY SITE: ALJABRI MEDIA PRODUCTION

Abdulrahman - and yes its a long name but has a meaning "servant of the merciful". you can also call me abdul
Abdulrahman Aljabri
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 260



WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 12:22:59 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Another advantage of pigment printers is that they will print on virtually any kind of paper. Dye printers tend to be much more picky in the media selection, especially if you care at all about longevity.

And frankly, the differences in print quality have gotten very small, even for color printing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146259\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Good point, but since I only printed on glossy before I keep wondering what will the other paper types exactly offer over glossy?

The number of papers available is overwhelming, and I just can't figure out how they differ. Can anyone simplify the difference so that I can understand how Pearl, Luster, and Semi Gloss differ from Gloss. Also what is the deal with all the fine art papers?

Many thanks
Logged

MY SITE: ALJABRI MEDIA PRODUCTION

Abdulrahman - and yes its a long name but has a meaning "servant of the merciful". you can also call me abdul
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2890


« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 02:41:12 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The consensus is that the HP wastes almost no ink on its head maintenance, as it periodically warms up and fires just a few picoliter sized drops past a sensor to ensure the heads are still clear. It's a world of difference from the Epson with repeated deep cleaning cycles to clear recalcitrant nozzle clogs.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Maybe I'm overlooking something but I have not seen a maintenance "waste ink" tank mentioned for the Z3100 either. On the Epsons and Canons there's one you have to pay for when you need an empty one or you have to reset the chip and get replacement pads from the drugstore. Another indication to me that there's little ink lost in cleaning on the Z3100.

Saffir estimated the ink lost on a Z3100 at $80 a year including an intensive cleaning per quarter:

[a href=\"http://www.dpandi.com/essays/saffir1.html]http://www.dpandi.com/essays/saffir1.html[/url]

I have not done an intensive cleaning in 6 months.


Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
Logged
John R Smith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1357


Still crazy, after all these years


« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 03:47:16 AM »
ReplyReply

Just a quick word in defence of dye-based prints -

If you desire an end result which is as close as possible to a glossy colour RC print (a C-type), then a good dye printer takes a lot of beating. In the case of HP, for example and from my own experience, the HP Vivera dye inks on the HP Premium Plus paper give superb colours, no gloss differential, and not a hint of bronzing. The downside is that you are very restricted as to paper choice - other papers with the same inkset are likely to fade or show unnaceptable colour shift in a short space of time. My testing shows that the HP Premium Plus, however, is extremely stable - better than Fuji Crystal Archive C-prints - with no paper base yellowing and minimal colour shift with no fade over long periods of direct sunlight exposure.

John
Logged

Hasselblad 500 C/M, SWC and CFV-39 DB
and a case full of (very old) lenses and other bits
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2007, 07:42:31 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Do you have a link for this info as it might pertain to the z3100?  In researching my own next printer I could find nothing save an admonishment to never shut the z3100 off to prevent clogs.

Thanks
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146255\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I lack the skills to post a link, but Neil Snape did an extensive review of the Z3100 when it was first released, linked to his posts here, with lots of information about its functions such as self-monitoring of the heads. I believe that's the first place I saw this, but I've seen it elsewhere as well.
Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1432



« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 08:17:49 PM »
ReplyReply

Here's a link to Neal's review of the Z3100.
Logged

Regards,
Ron
Aboud
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 08:43:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The consensus is that the HP wastes almost no ink on its head maintenance, as it periodically warms up and fires just a few picoliter sized drops past a sensor to ensure the heads are still clear. It's a world of difference from the Epson with repeated deep cleaning cycles to clear recalcitrant nozzle clogs.

The difference in gamut between dye and pigment ink is also nothing like it once was. The current generation pigment printers from all three major inkjet makers are exceptionally good in this regard; you'll only notice a difference if you compare prints with highly saturated colors side by side, pigment vs. dye; and a few years down the road the dye prints will have dreadful color shifts due to differential fading.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146238\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've been using the HP Designjet Z2100 since last December. Fantastic color, great gamut with economical ink use, even on  "best" setting and lots of great papers. Try Hannemuhle's Photo Rag Pearl for fantastic coverage and at 344 GSM it is like printing on plywood. One caveat, the paper sensor is flimsy and mine had to be replaced after only about 50 large prints. I have learned to approach it with delicacy.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad