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Author Topic: The state of MFDB  (Read 21894 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2007, 10:18:17 AM »
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in which way is Fuji backing Hasselblad?

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Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad and Hassy is making money.
 
Edmund
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2007, 10:21:24 AM »
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TH

It has become clear to me in this thread what I would like to see in a hassy beating super luxury camera system

It exists right now

Sinar Back in Rollie mount
Rolie 6008,
Alpa TC12 and rollie lens mount (do they do a rolei back mount?)
Rolie Xact

wide lens 28mm roden in ALpa mount
rollei lenses 40 and beyond

maybe a couple of big image circle lenses 47 and 120 ?

Sinar owns all of these bits exept the ALPA bit and is discontiuing them all with no clear message about better replacements and similarly smooth intergration

Have you dropped the crown jewels in the river?

S

no I cant spell rollie  
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 10:30:59 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2007, 10:31:54 AM »
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Sam,

The Hy6 is not in any way limiting the adaption of a Sinarback: ANY Sinarback which can be mounted on a Hy6 can ALSO be mounted on a view camera (being it a Sinar one, or another), simply with the respective adapter plate.

I may be don't get your point, but it seems that there is confusion

Best regards,
Thierry

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As for the HY6 to sinar view camera mount - Ive not seen a press release for that - maybe just bad comms from sinar

S
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2007, 10:38:57 AM »
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Sam,

I know we disagree on this, for having argued quite a few time on this subject with you. But you say it yourself, that nobody is going to have a second set of MFDB. So if you have this configuration, Sinar p/p2/x + H, and then you wish another camera platform, is that not the optimal way by simply changing the adapter plate? Is 2 minutes (at the maximum) "unscrewing/screwing" really such a hassle and struggle?

Best regards,
Thierry

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I also own a sinar P camera and a sinar back, both being H mount I can swap between the H and the P fast - no screws or dinged chips - if I changed to sinars own walkaround camera i would need a $1000 adapter and screw changes - how dumb is that ?

SMM
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2007, 10:43:51 AM »
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Sam,

The Hy6 is not in any way limiting the adaption of a Sinarback: ANY Sinarback which can be mounted on a Hy6 can ALSO be mounted on a view camera (being it a Sinar one, or another), simply with the respective adapter plate.

I may be don't get your point, but it seems that there is confusion

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IF YOU USE THIRD PARTY AND SOON TO BE DISCONTUINUED PRODUCTS..

If I am correct using a 6008 and suddenly needing wide you just drop the back off and plonk it on the the alpa with a 28 or 24 - no screws - click

Should you need rise on your R lenses with you just stick your 6008 lens on the alpa - click

Should you need movements you just drop you back into a Xact - no screw - same lenses - click click

Subject to image circle limitations this is the most flexible and economic system possible.

ON THE OTHER HAND

If you are loyal  to sinars current and announced future products..

You are using a HY6 and suddenly need wide you

unscrew the mount and replace with a P3 mount, you have to use a P3 becuse sinar dont make a handy little camera like the Alpa

should you need movements you then go out and buy a SECOND set of LENSES for your view camera because you Hy6 /rollei lenses DONT fit on the view camera

we know those lenses have a coverage beyond 645 but there is no way to access it

Maybe I am confused.

---

I challenge you to a race -  time is of course money to my clients.

We both photograph a hotel, detail shots and some wide shots with rise and fall and a few details with some rise too

I use a rollie 6008 and a 28 on an ALPA

You use a P3 and and HY6

Anyway I won for the first 10 hotels because you were still saving up for your second set of lenses

S
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 10:49:17 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2007, 10:45:29 AM »
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Sam,

are you by chance an "Aussie"? My friend from Australia spells it "Rolie" as well!
 

Seriously, we are discontinuing nothing, so far, and I don't think you have read something like that from Sinar. Then, Sinar does not owe Rollei, respectively F&H and their Rolleiflex system. It should be up to them to communicate about their system, not Sinar.

But you are right, your dream camera system looks interesting.

Best,
Thierry

Quote
TH

It has become clear to me in this thread what I would like to see in a hassy beating super luxury camera system

It exists right now

Sinar Back in Rollie mount
Rolie 6008,
Alpa TC12 and rollie lens mount (do they do a rolei back mount?)
Rolie Xact

wide lens 28mm roden in ALpa mount
rollei lenses 40 and beyond

maybe a couple of big image circle lenses 47 and 120 ?

Sinar owns all of these bits exept the ALPA bit and is discontiuing them all with no clear message about better replacements and similarly smooth intergration

Have you dropped the crown jewels in the river?

S

no I cant spell rollie 
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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2007, 10:57:18 AM »
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Seriously, we are discontinuing nothing,[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I am confused - and it is your companies fault - I am just a dumb punter - it is your companies job to outline a smooth to operate, economic,  sensibly integrated system, secure serviced future and exciting development path

 the 6008 is on your site, the Xact is not, (I think it was?)  the HY6 is yours - It says sinar on the top even though we all know it is 70% rollie

you are 'developing the 35 for the Rollei/hy6 mount' or pipe up about that enough

you will distribute rollei fit lenses ?

I think Roolie = sinar

I am not confused in the fact that I cant build a super system like I outlined from the products on your site

Which is actually all I want to do - walk into a shop and buy the stuff

Just like you can with Hs crummy little system

In fact on your site I cant find any lenses that fit the Hy6 at all - get it sorted mate    

S
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:17:16 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2007, 11:00:52 AM »
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in which way is Fuji backing Hasselblad?
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The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
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thsinar
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2007, 11:17:54 AM »
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One thing I wish to clear out: Sinar is not Rollei, nor F&H nor does Sinar owe them, nor do we have any influence on the continuation or discontinuation of their line of products. Therefore I cannot speak about any discontinuation, as I am not at all aware of it. Sinar itself has discontinued none of its products, yet, and am not aware of any of it being soon.

Yes, for the time being Sinar (through its existing distribution channels) is distributing the whole range of Rolleiflex 600x cameras, lenses and accessories, as well as the Xact2 and its complete line of accessories.

I agree that there are no AFD lenses for the Sinar Hy6 "visually" displayed yet on our webpage: this is going to be done soon. However, you can download all the Rolleiflex 6000 - System Catalog, the Rolleiflex 6008 AF - Brochure, the Rollei X-Act-2 - Brochure and the Rollei Electronic Shutter - Brochure from our "Downloads" part.

Best regards,
Thierry


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Well I am confused - and it is your companies fault - I am just a dumb punter

 the 6008 is on your site, the Xact is not, (I think it was?)  the HY6 is yours

you are 'developing the 35 for the Rollei/hy6 mount'

you will distribute rollei lenses ?

I think Roolie = sinar

I am not confused in the fact that I cant build a super system like I outlined from the products on your site

Which is actually all I want to do - walk into a shop and buy the stuff

Just like you can with Hs crummy little system

In fact on your site I cant find any lenses that fit the Hy6 at all   

S
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2007, 11:21:43 AM »
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One thing I wish to clear out: Sinar is not Rollei, nor F&H nor does Sinar owe them, nor do we have any influence on the continuation or discontinuation of their line of products.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So they could discontinue the Hy6 and you would have no influence

S
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thsinar
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2007, 11:27:00 AM »
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Yes, BJL, this is clear and I know it.

I was understanding Edmund's "Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad ..." as with a clear connotation of backing "financially", since he was answering to Graham who was saying that Leaf and Sinar both had sizeable parent companies.

Therefore my question "in which way", since it is somehow misleading.

Best regards,
Thierry

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The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2007, 11:28:52 AM »
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Not really, Sam!

Jenoptik is the owner of this camera, not F&H. I was thinking that this was clear, for having explained a few times already, in numerous different treads.

Best regards,
Thierry

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So they could discontinue the Hy6 and you would have no influence

S
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2007, 11:28:56 AM »
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Nobody said it was discontinued, so why pronounce it dead?

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My impression was the Rolle and Sinar where somehow merged what with rolle priduct on sinar website and all (I dont see a link to canon on the nikon site)

It would be my guess that in sensible rationisation one view camera system would be dropped

That would most likely be the Xact not the Sinar

It would also be my guess that rationisation would kill the M and the 6008 in favour of the all singing Hy6 over time

For me to be in any of these systems with a deep investment I would want to be very sure of contiuned development and service esp after get my Hassy hands burnt

I think it is most bizzare the whole tangle and worrying to those thinking of dropping $50k that way


S
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:35:28 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2007, 11:46:18 AM »
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Not really, Sam!

Jenoptik is the owner of this camera, not F&H. I was thinking that this was clear, for having explained a few times already, in numerous different treads.

Best regards,
Thierry
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So F+H could go bust and Jenoptic would have the rights to a camera that was not being made

It doesnt really matter to me where you get the bits from - like nikon get their chips from who knows where and their PCBs from somewhere else - who knows or cares

But I am confident in thier sales and service

I would just want to be presented with an integrated system that will have spares for 5 years plus if I were dropping that cash

we havent even mentioned leaf or phase yet  




S
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2007, 11:47:35 AM »
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EPd,

I think that Sinar and our distributors DO communicate about the availability of the products we are distributing, speaking about the Rolleiflex and X-act 2 systems. At least all of our distributors have the information and know about it. We can now argue for long if this is done efficiently or if it should be done differently, or the lack of information about this on our webpage (to which I agree to a certain extend and which we are well aware) but somehow I find this a bit exagerated, even if things can be improved.

As for little information about the Sinar Hy6 currently on our homepage: yes, true. But expect to see some soon.

I happened to go the Hasselblad webpage and did not yet find any information about the H2F, though I understood it was shiping already. So please bear with us, our communication might not be perfect, yet, but customers or potential customers can get it.

Anyway, thanks for the remarks, which will be forwarded as usual, with my comments.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Since Sinar is the distributor of Rolleiflex systems in most parts of the world it would be expected that Sinar takes care of the communication to customers about the availability of the products they are representing, no? By the way, some Sinar distributors do and they will tell you that the X-act is still available as it has been now for years. Nobody said it was discontinued, so why pronounce it dead?

As a more general problem I have with Sinar is that their communication of unique selling points is extremely bad. Why doesn't everybody know about their adapter system for DB's, for example? It should be the most obvious discerning factor for those thinking of buying into such an expensive thing. If you go to one of their websites it is just impossible to find the really important information. Try to learn about the Hy6, for example. You might expect that to be one of their current spearheads in markting communication. But all you can find is some taglines with selling points and a PDF file with a body design in it that has not made it to line production. This camera seems to be selling right now and you can't find any up-to-date information about it. Are we all supposed to find a dealer first and talk to them? A dealer who generally doesn't know shit about the Hy6 and how it relates to other components that it can work with (the Rolleiflex options, that is). Look at all the confusion we see on this board and the answers that have to be given by me (an independant person, not related to any of the companies involved), because they are not in the general Sinar communication.

Obviously, Thierry, you are doing your best to be here and to provide good answers, but it is ridiculous that you have to sit at the end of the river to catch fish that otherwise would end up in the sea. What about all those potential customers that do not make it to this place? Where do they find out what they should know before they decide to go with which MFDB system? That is the very ONE thing that Hassy has understood a lot better: find your potential customers before they find a better product. And there you are (together with F&H): knowing that you have the better product and still wondering why customers do not pick you for selling it to them. It's a bloody shame!
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« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2007, 11:51:31 AM »
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I think I can reassure you about this with a fair certainty.

Thierry

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I would just want to be presented with an integrated system that will have spares for 5 years plus if I were dropping that cash

S
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« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2007, 11:54:42 AM »
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I was understanding Edmund's "Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad ..." as with a clear connotation of backing "financially" ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.


P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
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« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2007, 11:59:36 AM »
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So F+H could go bust and Jenoptic would have the rights to a camera that was not being made

None of us is privy to the contract between the parties. If it was done properly, Jenoptik will have the right to resume manufacture or buy out the company etc.
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« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2007, 12:05:46 PM »
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I don't see photography as a race, even though I understand and know the necessity to be fast in some situations and the limited time available.

But yes, you might win this race, by having the shots faster on your HD. However, I would certainly not take a Sinar p3, but a f3 fitted with its sliding adapter and the 28mm. And I guess I won't be that much slower or even heavier than you.

Thierry

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I challenge you to a race -  time is of course money to my clients.

We both photograph a hotel, detail shots and some wide shots with rise and fall and a few details with some rise too

I use a rollie 6008 and a 28 on an ALPA

You use a P3 and and HY6

Anyway I won for the first 10 hotels because you were still saving up for your second set of lenses

S
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2007, 12:11:04 PM »
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None of us is privy to the contract between the parties. If it was done properly, Jenoptik will have the right to resume manufacture or buy out the company etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sure but to me the HY6 is only half of the story - what about the lenses - who makes them

What about the mount license - if rollei went T*ts up maybe even shnieder wholud have to stop or ziess or whoever actually makes them

Anyway - lets all be trusting we wont understand the contracts and anyone could go pop tomorrow

My main interest is a fast to use system with more flexibility than the H system which doesnt present itself through sinars current product range

So they are failing to get that USP even though it is there for those who search

S
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