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Author Topic: The state of MFDB  (Read 20094 times)
TechTalk
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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2007, 12:12:22 PM »
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The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where did you come up with all of this nonsense? Why do you want to associate yourself with posting misinformation?
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thsinar
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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2007, 12:15:30 PM »
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Understood too, concerning the R&D costs.

Hasselblad and Imacon: the holding company which has taken over both is named Shriro Group of Companies, with headquarters in Hong Kong.

Thierry

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Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.
P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2007, 12:17:31 PM »
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Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.
P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have no idea what the truth is about this subject.
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2007, 12:31:59 PM »
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No, I don't take it as an attack. We are well aware of our "weakness" in this for the moment. I said that things can be improved, and they will.

You don't know me! My superiors will certainly hear me loud and clear, even if in Bangkok! Be sure of that and for this particular issue, as much as for any issue/suggestion raised here.

This being said, you might know that Bangkok is 5 hours ahead of you: it is not that this discussion does bother or annoy me, or that I want to escape it, but am simply feeling tired and am living it for now.

Good night,
Thierry

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Dear Thierry,

Please don't see this as an attack. I think Sinar's communication could (and should) be improved a lot and all I am trying to do is pointing out where you could start looking. Me too would like to see the Hy6 be an overnight success, because I honestly believe it would be well deserved. Not because of the communication about it, but because of the product that it is. The way things are going now is not how it should be. I am frustrated about that. Soft and friendly words would not describe this frustration adequately, so that is why my wording is as strong as I chose. Please do not give your superiors a chance to push my remarks aside by adding comforting words. I may have a lot of patience, but the modern market place does not. Since the Hy6 was delayed for months there has been plenty of time to update the website before the actual launch. There is no excuse for this at all, even though it may have its reasons. (BTW, I think the entire webdesign of Sinar's website sucks. It is not visually attractive, nor is it informative.) Sometimes things need to be said. I hope my words will actually make a difference, because I wish Sinar all the best of the world. Try to keep that intention in mind.

As for Hassy and the H2F: the H2F is a bandaid for those who feel fucked by Hassy. It should be mentioned under the label "damage control". But since Hassy does not have a place for that in their communication they will not hurry much to bring this news forward. On the other hand you will find everything about the H3DII on their website. I think it is smart communication: push forward what you want to sell and keep an alternative for the unhappy clients at hand. Just in case champagne and kaviar can no longer keep them quiet.

Best wishes,
EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2007, 01:25:34 PM »
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P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The name of the company is Viktor Hasselblad Aktiebolag , swedish AB. I could point you to the site with the entire information about the company but i think you don't need it as you wouldn't believe it anyway.

One thing I'd like to add to this amazing thread is that the fact is that the Hy6 is a reality now, and that is no mistake.


Still amazed with the kind of misinformation and specutalion some members of this forum can produce.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 01:27:42 PM by samuel_js » Logged
BJL
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2007, 02:09:09 PM »
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The press release about the merger of Imacon with Hasselblad under the common ownership of the Hong Kong based Shriro group is available here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701...lbladimacon.asp

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8/12/2004 - Shriro Sweden, the holding company of Victor Hasselblad AB, and part of the Hong Kong-headquartered Shriro Group, has announced the acquisition of leading international high-end scanner and digital cameraback manufacturer, Imacon. The move will see Imacon and Hasselblad merge to accelerate Hasselblad’s ambitions in the professional digital photographic sector, and creates the first single source supplier for digital photography at the top end of the professional photographic market.

The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad Imacon company, Lars Pappila, Tom Olesen and Christian Poulsen, together with Mr. Michael Binns, second from the right, Managing Director of Shriro Pacific Ltd.

Christian Poulsen, founder of Imacon, and CEO of the newly-enlarged Hasselblad ...


Never mind the inaccurate talk in the paragraph before the press release suggesting that Hasselblad acquired Imacon, (a claim made in numerous other press reports too): the actual press release makes it clear that
- Shriro acquired Imacon, having already acquired Hasselblad
- The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad-Imacon company is
-- Christian Poulsen, CEO of Hasselblad-Imacon, formerly CEO and founder of Imacon
-- Tom Olesen, the former managing director (2nd in command?) of Imacon
-- Lars Pappila, formerly president and CEO of Hasselblad.

OK, Hassleblad management got one out of three places on the new Executive Team, but Imacon got two including the top spot.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 02:11:10 PM by BJL » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2007, 03:12:57 PM »
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Still amazed with the kind of misinformation and specutalion some members of this forum can produce.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If that was pointed at me and I dont mind if it was  

My confusion seems to be over the Xact range of cameras future.

and that of the 6008

googling rollie leads to [a href=\"http://www.rollei.com/]http://www.rollei.com/[/url]

click on medium format and you go to

http://www.franke-heidecke.net/

click on products and there is no mention of the Xact

download the 6008 PDF and it is on page 18 of 20 in a diagram

BUT BASICALLY THE CAMERA IS NOT THERE

go to www.sinar.ch click on cameras

AND IS NOT THERE

click on INFOS

download the rollei datasheet and it is there in the same graphic on page 16 of 16

Nothing says it is still current.

Visit robertwhite a uk rollie dealer - IT IS NOT LISTED

Lastra a uk sinar dealer - IT IS NOT LISTED

That seems pretty vacant for a current produced serviced and promoted product

Hence my confusion.

In terms of the 6008 I just assumed that would fade away in the same way as I assume a 1dsMK2s have faded away with the 1dsMk3 coming along

obviously wrong !

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2007, 03:24:14 PM »
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In Medium Format with AF, there are now the following cameras left in play after Hasselblad announced the cancellation of the H2:
- Contax (inactive, all backs)
- Hasselblad (closed, Hasselblad backs only)
- Mamiya (active, all backs and their own)
- Sinar/Leaf/Rollei (launch stage, own backs only at this point)

The digital back companies are Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf, and Sinar and Mamiya.

My predictions (not fact, not rumor, just personal analysis):

- Hasselblad revenues are going to continue to grow, and their system will improve markedly as they re-invest into software and firmware.  Hasselblad can now afford to be commercially aggressive and have added resources for software R&D.

- Leaf have a new system, which can generate an upgrade revenue stream, but sales are going to be under pressure from Hasselblad

- Sinar remain a boutique contender but are in a good position to merge with one of the other players due to the Hy6 card. As a preliminary, they could choose to save some money by merging the R&D for their backs with Leaf.

- Mamiya will continue to act as an open platform for the time being, on the strength of the Phase and their own back sales which will be decent due to the price point. Note the accessible pricing of their lenses. It is clear that Mamiya has the ability to develop good products, while manufacturing and distributing at the lowest cost point in the market.

- Phase One are in a tough spot. They may have been a lead contender technically, but the other players now have them in a platform squeeze. A merger with some existing player or entrant seems increasingly likely.

In summary, I'd say the only "sure things" in the MF market are the inevitable growth of an increasingly aggressive Hasselblad, and the survival of Mamiya as the cheapest solution. Sinar, Phase and Leaf are playing musical chairs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

it seems to me that the "db" part of the imacom-hasselblad entity has been driving the direction of the company-i'm not suggesting that is necessarily a bad thing, only that this is how i perceive things.
given the fact that jenoptik owns the Hy6, and licenses agreements seem to facilitate the co-branding/ vanity branding, they and sinar, which they own are in a different position than say leaf is.  if my understanding  that Jenoptik will also be manufacturing a line of lenses under the "jena "  name for the Hy6, then they will in effect be producing a complete imaging solution-bodies, lenses and backs.  as well as being the licensee for the Hy6 bodies...infact when you add the broncolor card into  the sinar equation,  you have an entity that offers photographers a complete imaging solution-image cameras, lenses, digital backs and lighting.....

As for leaf, the competition is not just hasselblad, but sinar as well.    If i look at the prices of the 54 and 75 mp back hy6/afi  packages, they are pretty close-if my memory serves me right.  Since the software and items like gain, for example are handled so differently, what would be the advantage to sinar and leaf merging R&D?  it is interesting because you speak of both sinar and leaf as if they were small indy companies, when they are part of entities with substantial interests and resources.  Kodak seems to take a very hands off approach to its' susidiaries that produce well, and i would expect that to continue as long as leaf continues to operate well.
Where mamiya is concerned, the price of their two latest lens offerings, suggest that r&d, even for the "value leader" in the market is high.  mamiya is in an interesting position: currently it is a one trick pony with one db (i am intentionally leaving the zd camera out of the mix.)  they are going to have to make a decision as to whether they wll produce a zd Mk2 back and/or camera, and if they are going to offer multiple mp solutions?  they could decide to go it alone or they could colab with a company with greater strenght in producing backs.  at this point, one of the weakest aspects of the mamiya 645 auto focus system which they need to address is the limited sync speed...
phase is sitting in an interesting position imo....and not as tough a spot as you see them in.  they have had a couple of years to deal with the changing landscape----remember the hy6 and the zd back were announced sometime ago, and hasselblad -imacom did not just appen yesterday:  I doubt they have been sitting back and pondering life.  They have jsut been playing their cards close to the vest.

the real issues, imo as it relates to the future of mf digital for professional photogs, have less to do with which company's platform, but  more to do with the price of equipment and the fact that a growing number of clients are under budget constraints and are expecting us to work for less.  it's ridiculously low prices for unique images at some of the leading stock agencies.
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2007, 03:38:00 PM »
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Where did you come up with all of this nonsense?
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TechTalk,

Like you, I don't condone passing off speculation and rumour as fact, of course, but I feel it would be more helpful to the community to correct any misinformation than simply to dispute it.  Wouldn't you agree?

I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else for that matter) could shed some like on the nature of the relationship between Fujifilm Corporation and Victor Hasselblad AB in the development of the H-series of cameras.  It's an interesting collaboration which is, for better or for worse, changing the face of the medium format photography industry.

All (factual) insight is most welcome.

Best regards,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 03:44:22 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

samuel_js
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2007, 03:54:31 PM »
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If that was pointed at me and I dont mind if it was   
obviously wrong !

SMM
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It wasn't pointed to anyone in particular.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2007, 04:10:04 PM »
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If I inherited $1 million under condition that I have to invest it in US profit shares of medium format digital market and keep it there untouched for ten years my diversification would be as follow:
Hasselblad - 70%
Phase One - 18%
Leaf          - 12%
Take your picks.

For Rollei or Sinar to be successful in US they would have completely change their marketing strategies and to start to understand the role of positive advertisement desperately needed to push their excellent products. I do not see it happening any time soon. We do not buy Cereal X because it is good, we buy it because Hanna Montana eats it.
Andre
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Geoffrey
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2007, 04:33:08 PM »
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If I inherited $1 million under condition that I have to invest it in US profit shares of medium format digital market and keep it there untouched for ten years my diversification would be as follow:
Hasselblad - 70%
Phase One - 18%
Leaf          - 12%
Take your picks.

For Rollei or Sinar to be successful in US they would have completely change their marketing strategies and to start to understand the role of positive advertisement desperately needed to push their excellent products. I do not see it happening any time soon. We do not buy Cereal X because it is good, we buy it because Hanna Montana eats it.
Andre
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While I have obvious Rollei sympathies (owner of 6003 for 15 years, and 4 Schneider lenses for it) I must agree with the above. The basic issue is that proud European engineering and manufacturing companies are often "product" driven - that is, they produce what they think is needed. They make what they believe is a great product, and it often is just that. They assume the market will respond positively.

This is in contract to "demand" driven companies, which listens to the market, finds their spot, and respond, and changes quickly if there isn't the market response.

This extends to how they respond to marketing - the product driven companies have histrically a rather relaxed notion to marketing, believing in the end, quality will out. The demand driven companies market as if their business depends on it (which it does).

Given deep enough pockets, the product driven companies can exist just fine for a while, but recent history has them either going bust after 10-20 years of this approach (in today's market), or changing their tune (re: Mercedes).

Demand driven companies (and their responsiveness to marketing needs) are all the rage these days. In fact, one might esay a company can't survive without this attention to marketing.

Companies like Apple are an interesting cross between the two - mostly product driven, but with a savvy way of marketing it. Leica and Sinar are of the old guard, and are slowly catching up - Leica moreso. Sinar is, well, not quite there.

I say that as a follower of the brand, as an interested party wanting their best success. But they still struggle, don't quite get how to get American market penetration,a nd are just not a factor in the US. Maybe in Europe moreso, but here, its  alonely day until one sees their products. I hope fervently this changes... for them and for all their supporters and friends. I just don't know how they plan on staying in the game without more aggressive marketing.

A poor exchange rate doesn't help this to be sure, esp. when coupled with high European labor costs. So I don't know the answer, but gee, I'd really like a $15-20k bundle of camera and back. Really.  

Geoff G.
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BJL
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2007, 05:13:45 PM »
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I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else for that matter) could shed some like on the nature of the relationship between Fujifilm Corporation and Victor Hasselblad AB in the development of the H-series of cameras.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One starting point for web searching on this topic is the name under which this camera is sold in Japan: The Fujifilm GX645AF Professional.

Here are a couple of mentions in official Fujifilm sites, one in English
[a href=\"http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php]http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php[/url]
and two in Japanese
http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/news_r/nrj1000.html
http://fujifilm.jp/personal/filmcamera/med...5af/design.html

Like the last two, a lot of the best information seems to be available only in Japanese, since only is Japan is this camera sold under the Fujiifilm brand name.


Isn't Bernard based in Japan? Any comments Bernard?
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« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2007, 05:40:54 PM »
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Thanks for this, BJL,

In the first link, Fuji simply states that the camera was "developed in collaboration with Victor Hasselblad AB", but I didn't see any of the details.

For the second and third links, (fortunately my wife is Japanese) they discuss the marketing points of the GX645AF.  One point of interest is that the article says that the "Fuji Photo Company" and the "Fuji Light Industry" (approximate translations) are proud to announce the camera.  I suppose this means that Fuji is involved in manufacturing, but I wonder if it is for more than just the glass.

-Brad
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:41:22 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2007, 05:50:46 PM »
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Andre, Geoffrey and EPd,

Guys, very well put.

I'm inclined to agree with you as well on the marketing front.  There's definitely a cultural mismatch, but I wonder if it's more than just a different way of doing things.  These companies have very bright people working for them, and I'd imagine that if it was a priority for them to understand and crack the US market, they could at least develop the required understanding in short order.

Perhaps they've done this, but found that the implementation is either too difficult or too expensive, or both.  It's hard to imagine that these companiies would truly be baffled by American marketing--but rather have chosen not to engage in it.

Thoughts?

-Brad
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:52:13 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2007, 06:09:21 PM »
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- Hasselblad revenues are going to continue to grow, and their system will improve markedly as they re-invest into software and firmware.  Hasselblad can now afford to be commercially aggressive and have added resources for software R&D.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree.

The future of digital will be about integrating cameras, optics, and software. The Hasselblad H28mm and the next generation of Canon's Raw conversion software demonstrate the point. Once lens designers have integrated software to handle distortion correction they can work miracles with optical performance. Look at the history of Hasselblad's V series 38/40mm lenses; their last lens, the 40mm IF, convincingly outperformed every other V series 38mm and 40mm optic, but it suffers from the worst distortion in their entire V series range (excluding the 30mm fisheye of course). I've never been lucky enough to use the H28mm, but the MTF charts are simply stunning, all because distortion control has moved from being an intractable optical challenge to a simple software chore. But pulling off this trick demands that the software knows the exact subject distance for each shot, hence complete integration of camera, lens and software is key.

In the long run it's another blow for Phase One's Capture One (and Aperture et al); the camera, the optics, and the raw converter need to be one single integrated package from a single supplier.

Once I've gotten over my personal shock as the owner of a P45+ back (which is now a perfectly functional but essentially marooned historical novelty) I think it's a positive and exciting development.

So far the whole digital revolution thing has felt overstated, apart from a few novelties like HDR the really exciting stuff has all been downstream with the editing, which was equally applicable to scanned negatives so not unique to digital capture. But if the future moves to full integration who knows what truly revolutionary digital developments tomorrow might bring? Exciting times, if temporarily uncomfortable for people like myself who've probably backed the wrong horse.
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« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2007, 07:16:22 PM »
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A company like Franke & Heidecke mainly floats on their home market, where customers think the same way as they do. And although this company has very bright people aboard, their strength is definately not in thinking creatively about approaching the market place....

Yes, this is true of many companies in Germanic culture. When I am in Germany I encounter many fantastic domestically produced products at good prices and find it hard to believe that these companies are satisfied with only the local market. If only they could hand over the marketing to the Americans they would have a killer combination.

You are right that they expect these cameras to sell themselves, and marketing is an afterthought. I sincerely hope it changes. I have actually written to the head of marketing at Sinar in the past making many suggestions.
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« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2007, 08:39:00 PM »
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there was a long post here about stuff i tought could be cool on/in the Hy6 (taking the stick from morgan_moore) that did not have much to do about this thread, sorry  

-axel
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 06:30:33 AM by godtfred » Logged

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TechTalk
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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2007, 08:59:32 PM »
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Well, feel free to enlighten us all with your apparently better information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't claim to have better information than is available to most of the public. But I don't have a desire to mix speculation and fantasies, sprinkled with grains of truth either.

I've had a busy workload today and was hoping someone else would clean the "information" cesspool. There is a bit of old advice that goes... Don't wrestle a pig. You just end up covered in mud–and the pig likes it!

But, as soon as I get a few minutes, I'll dive in.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 09:00:24 PM by TechTalk » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2007, 09:25:19 PM »
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I agree.

The future of digital will be about integrating cameras, optics, and software. The Hasselblad H28mm and the next generation of Canon's Raw conversion software demonstrate the point. Once lens designers have integrated software to handle distortion correction they can work miracles with optical performance. Look at the history of Hasselblad's V series 38/40mm lenses; their last lens, the 40mm IF, convincingly outperformed every other V series 38mm and 40mm optic, but it suffers from the worst distortion in their entire V series range (excluding the 30mm fisheye of course). I've never been lucky enough to use the H28mm, but the MTF charts are simply stunning, all because distortion control has moved from being an intractable optical challenge to a simple software chore. But pulling off this trick demands that the software knows the exact subject distance for each shot, hence complete integration of camera, lens and software is key.

In the long run it's another blow for Phase One's Capture One (and Aperture et al); the camera, the optics, and the raw converter need to be one single integrated package from a single supplier.

Once I've gotten over my personal shock as the owner of a P45+ back (which is now a perfectly functional but essentially marooned historical novelty) I think it's a positive and exciting development.

So far the whole digital revolution thing has felt overstated, apart from a few novelties like HDR the really exciting stuff has all been downstream with the editing, which was equally applicable to scanned negatives so not unique to digital capture. But if the future moves to full integration who knows what truly revolutionary digital developments tomorrow might bring? Exciting times, if temporarily uncomfortable for people like myself who've probably backed the wrong horse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A refreshingly thoughtful, well reasoned and forward looking post! Though others are welcome to disagree, I hope to see arguments presented as clearly as yours.

The future is not likely to rely exclusively on the same centuries old methods of optical design that require all corrections to be balanced inside the lens which forces certain types of aberration correction which  needs to be done optically, to compete with corrections that can be made digitally. If medium-format digital has a future, it also is likely to require breaking with the past years mix-and-match generic approach in order to maintain the quality advantage that is required to keep it alive.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 01:14:36 AM by TechTalk » Logged
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