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Author Topic: Striations in P45+@800 ISO normal ?  (Read 21940 times)
Dustbak
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« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2007, 12:57:36 AM »
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Both Edmund and Axel have their P45's only for a very short time now. What we are witnessing here is that they are trying to find the limits of their equipment I reckon
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godtfred
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« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2007, 05:14:27 AM »
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Both Edmund and Axel have their P45's only for a very short time now. What we are witnessing here is that they are trying to find the limits of their equipment I reckon
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Hmmm... I could have agreed on this, yet my previous H3D has been run through it's paces by me, and it never showed anything like this. I have used it at ISO 400 a lot more than i initially thought I would, and even pushed images around a stop. I have never ever seen this type of striping from it (and I do have some tens of thousands of images from it...)

The files from the P45+ just don't seem to hold up as well to extensive adjustments in high ISO, and I believe it has something to do with the way C1 fools you to believe you have exposed to the right, while you are actually around a normal exposure or just below. I shoot mostly tethered, so frequently check the histogram to see if the exposure is correct.

I'm down with a cold, but I'll be re-checking some files from the H3D-39 to see if I can push them hard in a levels adjustment to bring out any kind of striations (when i come back to work, on thursday I hope...). Shame I don't still have the camera, to make a side by side.

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Well, Edmund, I have been telling you for days to make a *totally* overexposed shot (white board with +4EV), with different ISOs. This is important to see, if there is a non-linear range before the "ultimate clipping", or if a channel clips at once (there are examples for both).

Furthermore, you should shoot some well-lit scenery with a series of exposures 1/3 apart, up to +3EV compared to what you would do.

You can upload them with "yousendit". You can download Rawnalyze from [a href=\"http://www.cryptobola.com/PhotoBola/free/rawnalyze.exe]from here[/url] and take a look at them yourself, but the manual is quite old; a new one will be ready in perhaps two weeks.

It is really a strange situation, that you (and not only you) have such an expensive equipment and don't know its limits.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, for myself it does not really matter what you find as the limits of the equipment in "Rawnalyze", for myself what matters is if the software that makes the ultimate raw development from my file (C1) is showing highlight clipping in large portions of the image, then that is what constitutes "white clipping" and the limits of the equipment in actual use.

This using a linear tone curve, with no adjustments what so ever. The most overexposed images i uploaded in the post yesterday shows a completely "clipped" white table, losing large portions of the image in featureless white. I know ACR recovers all of this, but it is of little importance to me as a fast paced tethered shoot has no room for constant checking of the histogram in more than one app.

Attatched you will find an image of what is shown as clipped in C1 with the adjustments shown on the side.

[attachment=4043:attachment]

EDIT: I have a friend with a H3D-39, he is going to lend it to me for a quick test. So sometime during the week I hope to have a side by side. Maybe I'm off on this one, I't just odd that I have not noticed anything like this on my H3D, yet saw it immediately when testing the high iso on the P45+  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 05:25:38 AM by godtfred » Logged

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eronald
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« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2007, 02:06:31 PM »
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Axel,

 The killer question is:
Are all the P45+ backs stripers, or are we the lucky few with broken ones ?

 I mean, if everybody else wants to shoot ISO 50, fine with me, but if I like to shoot ISO 400 and 800, it seems to me I've paid enough for the privilege, and if Phase has a P45+ that does not stripe, that's the one I want to be using.

Edmund




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Hmmm... I could have agreed on this, yet my previous H3D has been run through it's paces by me, and it never showed anything like this. I have used it at ISO 400 a lot more than i initially thought I would, and even pushed images around a stop. I have never ever seen this type of striping from it (and I do have some tens of thousands of images from it...)

I't just odd that I have not noticed anything like this on my H3D, yet saw it immediately when testing the high iso on the P45+ 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 02:12:32 PM by eronald » Logged
david o
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« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2007, 02:20:06 PM »
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Edmund,
I think it's hard to say if you really have a broken back.
Lot of guy here asked you to post a well expose image to see how it looks.
Because so far the one you did post were 1 3/4 stop underexp.  I could have missed some.

So set your tripod up, get the shot, overexposed it and narrow down til you are as close as possible to the good one.

Otherwise send me your back I'll do it for you. I pay for the Fedex.
But if I like the result I may keep it...  
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godtfred
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« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2007, 03:58:42 PM »
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Are all the P45+ backs stripers, or are we the lucky few with broken ones ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Edmund,

Yes, this is a question I really want answered (and if anyone out there with a P45+ want to take the time, do a quick test and post your raws!)

Also, my ISO800 files (posted earlier) has a properly exposed (according to ACR) shot, with clearly visible lines of magenta in the black bag (attatched with levels on top...) The image is unaltered, and opened with ACR where everything has been zero'ed.

This type of behaviour in a P45+ is not what I am looking for. If P1 wants to market the back as ISO800, then lines in properly exposed images, should not appear, no matter what ISO. Grain is fine, lines are not. I don't see the need for you to post other examples as some posters are asking for. The lines are in your back, as well as mine, and my test shot is exposed properly using ETTR as a guide. If this is not good enough, then what is?

Also there is a discrepancy between the way C1 shows histograms, and what the actual exposure is, this is an issue worthy of its own topic...

-axel

[attachment=4052:attachment]
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Axel Bauer
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david o
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« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2007, 04:11:26 PM »
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my bad edmund didn't pay attention to gotfred post.

have you sent images to phase?
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godtfred
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« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2007, 04:16:39 PM »
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my bad edmund didn't pay attention to gotfred post.

have you sent images to phase?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No ones bad really  

I intend to, but feel the need for further testing and experience with the back so that I can answer any question they might want to know from me (P1 that is...)

Also I want to test it against the H3D on iso400 before I send it away. If I find striping in the P45+ when pushing slightly, and not in the H3D, then there is reason for concern, particularly as this is touted as an ISO800 back and should hold its own against the H3D.

I'm sure both me and Edmund will keep everyone updated!  

-axel
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Axel Bauer
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« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2007, 11:24:14 PM »
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Also, my ISO800 files (posted earlier) has a properly exposed (according to ACR) shot, with clearly visible lines of magenta in the black bag (attatched with levels on top...) The image is unaltered, and opened with ACR where everything has been zero'ed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 

I can't see any major problem here, Axel. Is this a storm in a teacup?

I don't see any magenta striping in the black bag when I convert in ACR, although there is a bit of noise in the darkest parts of the bag and a very slight magenta cast which is typical of deep shadows with my Canon DSLRs at any ISO.

If this sort of thing were going to be a problem in the final balance of the image, ie. if you wanted to really bring out the shadows, then just a little more exposure would probably fix it. As it is, you're using a pretty conservative ETTR in the shot with the greatest exposure out of the 3 bracketed shots at ISO 800.

I had a look at the specral highlights on the tangerine (after recovering highlights to the maximum in ACR) and they have a value around, 207,197,185.

I think you could probably have given that shot at least another 1/3rd of a stop more exposure.

[attachment=4056:attachment]  [attachment=4057:attachment]

The problem with ETTR as I see it, is it's better to be underexposed by 1/3rd of a stop than overexposed by 1/3rd of a stop. However, when bracketing exposures, one can afford to be less conservative.

Of course there are certain situations where bracketing is not possible as in the case of this shot of a Hill Tribe woman in Chiang Mai, taken with flash late in the evening. I made an assessment from the 5D's histogram that the exposure was probably okay. In fact, I believe there is slight clipping of highlights but nothing serious. However, I would have preferred a 1/3rd stop less exposure.

The default setting in ACR gives an impression the image is seriously clipped in the highlights.  [attachment=4058:attachment]

However, just one click on the 'auto' button produces an almost acceptable result which looks hardly overexposed at all. [attachment=4059:attachment]

There's still scope in ACR to recover more highlight detail here. The brightest part of the image (apart from specral highlights) appears to be the yellowish tea shirt with a value around 207,197,185 after maximum highlight recovery. [attachment=4060:attachment]

Do you think this image is overexposed?
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godtfred
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« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2007, 03:34:21 AM »
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I don't see any magenta striping in the black bag when I convert in ACR, although there is a bit of noise in the darkest parts of the bag and a very slight magenta cast which is typical of deep shadows with my Canon DSLRs at any ISO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On my calibrated Eizo, I see magenta lines in the black bag. They are fairly wide, and not uniform in shape as they run along the bag horizontally. Of course, if i wanted i could pull the bag further down slightly (from around the 25-35 area its in now, to around 15-25). And have no problems in print or on screen. But to me this is not the issue, if i wanted to bring the shadows out, using S/H for example, then the lines quickly become an issue, and something I'm not used to from my H3D. As i said, grain is ok, lines are not. (On my Macbook Pro I don't see the lines clearly at all...)

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The problem with ETTR as I see it, is it's better to be underexposed by 1/3rd of a stop than overexposed by 1/3rd of a stop. However, when bracketing exposures, one can afford to be less conservative.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree totally with you on this. I can not afford to bracket in my shooting and have to trust my light meter and my histogram, it's ofthen fast paced, and I'm trying to capture a certain facial expression and body posture in non-professional models. It's (almost) always tethered and therefore C1 is the app to do this in, not ACR.

Quote
There's still scope in ACR to recover more highlight detail here. The brightest part of the image (apart from specral highlights) appears to be the yellowish tea shirt with a value around 207,197,185 after maximum highlight recovery. [attachment=4060:attachment]

Do you think this image is overexposed?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes I think this image is overexposed, but you do a good job at recovering it. I did a yoga shoot the other day, against a white backgound, where parts of the models outfit was white. Exposing to this level of accuracy to the right is just not a safe undertaking and can lead to a lot of retoutching that is not within the scope of the agreement between photographer and client. I understand the argument fully though, just don't think P1 should demand this from their customers in order to get an acceptable result form such an expensive piece of equipment.

I did some portraits of Alan Greenspan together with a Norwegian client the other day, and as flash was not permitted, as well as being given a 5 minute timeframe for both makeup/styling and shooting, where the space allowed (due to security) for shooting is behind the scene of a theatre where everything is black, black, and blacker than black. I used two 1000watt tungsten Pro heads with 2x3 softboxes slightly from above, this gave me around f3.5 at 1/80 with ISO200. I just did not dare use ISO400 or 800. With the black background, the poor light (tungsten balanced) the black suits, etc. I don't do this ofthen, but expect my P1 back to handle it better than my Canon when it does come along. (Maybe I should have chosen my canon and a 35 f1.4...   )

Storm in a teacup it may be, and as I said, I'll probably eat my own words when I test against the H3D-39  

-axel
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 03:35:18 AM by godtfred » Logged

Axel Bauer
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eronald
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« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2007, 04:05:57 AM »
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I am tired of this "underexposed" mantra by the studio crowd here.

When one does  real-world work, without fill flash, as opposed to studio, deep shadows are always underexposed. And in the real world one doesn't bracket or ETTR, one just sets the camera on full--auto and hopes for the best. Which is why we have full AF and AE cameras.

Here are two examples of what I enjoy doing:

1. Fashion shows: The girls are on the stage in the light. As I tend to image from strange positions around the room, the audience and background are often in my pictures as a backdrop, in the same shot, and they are way, way underexposed. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

2. City night images: Go to Times Square, Shibuya, the Champs Elysées or any other city night scene, and the shadows in my image will often be way underexposed, even if the interesting parts of the image are correct. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

So a back which stripes whenever there are deep blacks in an image will stripe quite often outside the studio.

My own experience is that my P45+ stripes quite predictably when I take pictures indoors of trendy people (eg. photographers) who like to wear black sweaters, jackets and pants. I switch to ISO 800 or 400, take a good available light image with the camera set on auto-everything, and then one can already see some stripes in the clothes they are wearing.
 

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 04:06:47 AM by eronald » Logged
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« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2007, 04:19:26 AM »
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DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?


Edmund
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Yes and no

With the shadows in in the unlit areas of say a fashion show where you have exposed for the girl

a deep S in the toe of the curve will make those areas go dark and reduced the affect of noise while darkening them

same for black jumpers

You clould use auto everything on +1 epx comp setting

But pulling underexposed files up - yes - give it up and buy a D3

NOW you may have a broken 'back I think you need to do side by side tests with your dealer to prove that

also you might like to read and comment on my other thread [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21246]ISO[/url]

S
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 04:21:11 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2007, 04:20:59 AM »
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Euh....

I do a lot of shots outside the studio and never have my camera on full auto. I try to because some little voice inside me says it might be better but I just want to have that feeling of control.

The audience you are talking about, do you lift that area? I would normally burn things like that away in which case weird stuff in the shadows are no problem. Having said that the only times I do catwalk shoots I don't bring my MFDB but the Nikon (while wishing for something like a 5D )

The second example, again you don't lift the shadows most of the time don't you? Having said that, again I find MFDB not the best tool for doing night shots unless you put it on a tripod and massage until you get it exactly right.

These things are naturally the way I work but from the things you like to be doing I get the feeling that you were expecting performance more like the Canon? Which it isn't (as you have found out).

On the other hand you & Axel might have lemons.

I see Sam already said basically the same thing
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 04:23:20 AM by Dustbak » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2007, 04:28:35 AM »
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I see Sam already said basically the same thing
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No . exactly the same thing

S
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« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2007, 10:39:32 AM »
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I am tired of this "underexposed" mantra by the studio crowd here.

When one does  real-world work, without fill flash, as opposed to studio, deep shadows are always underexposed. And in the real world one doesn't bracket or ETTR, one just sets the camera on full--auto and hopes for the best. Which is why we have full AF and AE cameras.

Here are two examples of what I enjoy doing:

1. Fashion shows: The girls are on the stage in the light. As I tend to image from strange positions around the room, the audience and background are often in my pictures as a backdrop, in the same shot, and they are way, way underexposed. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

2. City night images: Go to Times Square, Shibuya, the Champs Elysées or any other city night scene, and the shadows in my image will often be way underexposed, even if the interesting parts of the image are correct. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

So a back which stripes whenever there are deep blacks in an image will stripe quite often outside the studio.

My own experience is that my P45+ stripes quite predictably when I take pictures indoors of trendy people (eg. photographers) who like to wear black sweaters, jackets and pants. I switch to ISO 800 or 400, take a good available light image with the camera set on auto-everything, and then one can already see some stripes in the clothes they are wearing.
 

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Do you want those dark parts in your final image to stay in the dark or not... If yes no trouble... if you want to bring this part of the image up to the point it doesn't look underexp. you'll find noise and everything you have experienced.

It,s a little bit too TK for me in English to express my thought I'll PM you in french
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david o
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« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2007, 10:39:56 AM »
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I am tired of this "underexposed" mantra by the studio crowd here.

When one does  real-world work, without fill flash, as opposed to studio, deep shadows are always underexposed. And in the real world one doesn't bracket or ETTR, one just sets the camera on full--auto and hopes for the best. Which is why we have full AF and AE cameras.

Here are two examples of what I enjoy doing:

1. Fashion shows: The girls are on the stage in the light. As I tend to image from strange positions around the room, the audience and background are often in my pictures as a backdrop, in the same shot, and they are way, way underexposed. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

2. City night images: Go to Times Square, Shibuya, the Champs Elysées or any other city night scene, and the shadows in my image will often be way underexposed, even if the interesting parts of the image are correct. DO I NEED TO GIVE THIS UP ?

So a back which stripes whenever there are deep blacks in an image will stripe quite often outside the studio.

My own experience is that my P45+ stripes quite predictably when I take pictures indoors of trendy people (eg. photographers) who like to wear black sweaters, jackets and pants. I switch to ISO 800 or 400, take a good available light image with the camera set on auto-everything, and then one can already see some stripes in the clothes they are wearing.
 

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Do you want those dark parts in your final image to stay in the dark or not... If yes no trouble... if you want to bring this part of the image up to the point it doesn't look underexp. you'll find noise and everything you have experienced.

It,s a little bit for me in English to express my thought I'll PM you in french
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vjbelle
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« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2007, 12:48:35 PM »
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Here's a link to a Raw file EXPOSED TO THE RIGHT at 400 ISO, in DAYLIGHT.

http://download.yousendit.com/D9E8BE575BC4D993

Push it through C1 3.77 with no adjustments and you will be able to see a light line just under the stem of the pear, leading to the right. The streaking I complain about is present but less noticeable with normal exposure, but a fashion person, or color consultant will see it immediately.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,

I know I am getting into this a little late, but I processed your file in C1 3.7.7 and also saw the line you described.  I then processed it in C1 4 and the line just below the stem of the pear disappeared, only to be replaced by another artifact (magenta line) below the body of the pear.  I then processed it in Raw Developer 1.7.1 and all artifacts disappeared.  All processing was pushed to the right just to the point of highlight clipping.  

Victor
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eronald
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« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2007, 02:10:01 PM »
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Do you want those dark parts in your final image to stay in the dark or not... If yes no trouble... if you want to bring this part of the image up to the point it doesn't look underexp. you'll find noise and everything you have experienced.

It,s a little bit for me in English to express my thought I'll PM you in french
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

David,
You wonder whether I would want more detail in those shadows and want to push or lift the image there. The answer is no, the shadows are for me exposed just right, I want them to stay dark, and they should stay dark after processing or retouching. Dark does not mean totally featureless, when I do USM I will get some slight detail there eg. texture in the dark cloth, or some dark out of focus figures in the unlit background of a fashion show.

To summarize I do want these dark parts to sink *gracefully* into the shadows - I don't need or expect many details there - and I don't want lines or artefacts there although grain and noise are quite ok.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 02:10:32 PM by eronald » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2007, 02:43:58 PM »
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The H3D-39 vs. P45+ ISO400 test, as promised!

And also as promised I'll eat my words          

Both images using the same lens (100mm f2.2) P45+ on a H2 body, focus distance is the same, and the cameras where tripod mounted with mirror up. Same exposure for both (f5.6, 1/80).

Everything is zeroed in every software (C1, Flex, ACR.) Every software is latest non-beta version. Each image has its own histogram pasted on top... The same levels type adjustment to bring out any problems is used.

I'll make raw files available in a couple of days to those who would like them... (please say so on the board, if there are fewer than 1 taker, I won't go to the trouble.)

enjoy. -axel
[attachment=4066:attachment]

EDIT: The hassy file has to go through .dng conversion to be operable in ACR, this loses a lot of the hassy data like color accuracy etc. (or so hassy claims... and is correct in my experience with different hassy systems over the last couple of years.)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 02:46:47 PM by godtfred » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2007, 03:12:23 PM »
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At first glance the Hassy file has streaks Huh

Edmund

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The H3D-39 vs. P45+ ISO400 test, as promised!

And also as promised I'll eat my words           

Both images using the same lens (100mm f2.2) P45+ on a H2 body, focus distance is the same, and the cameras where tripod mounted with mirror up. Same exposure for both (f5.6, 1/80).

Everything is zeroed in every software (C1, Flex, ACR.) Every software is latest non-beta version. Each image has its own histogram pasted on top... The same levels type adjustment to bring out any problems is used.

I'll make raw files available in a couple of days to those who would like them... (please say so on the board, if there are fewer than 1 taker, I won't go to the trouble.)

enjoy. -axel
[attachment=4066:attachment]

EDIT: The hassy file has to go through .dng conversion to be operable in ACR, this loses a lot of the hassy data like color accuracy etc. (or so hassy claims... and is correct in my experience with different hassy systems over the last couple of years.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:38 PM »
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At first glance the Hassy file has streaks Huh
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Yes, and nice greenish spots...  

To me the P45+ came out as having a slightly lower dynamic range (very, very, very slightly.) But I guess Panopeeper should get his +4 stop shots soon and we can all get the numbers out all solid and shiny! (anyone up for this, I was supposed to do them, but forgot!) And now the nice H3D-39 is on its way back...

-axel
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 03:45:30 PM by godtfred » Logged

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