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Author Topic: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6  (Read 20541 times)
jpjespersen
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2007, 08:01:09 PM »
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I don't really understand why everyone is so insistent that phase can not make a back for the hy6.  I don't see any legal issues or problems, besides possible firmware updates not being compatible.  i know that for my car I can buy any part that is needed for my car, and it doesn't have to be manufactured by honda.  I would imagine it is the same for camera's.  If somebody wants to make a part for a camera, there is no legal reason why they can't, as far as I know.

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There is no question that only Leaf and Sinar are to be officially used on the Hy6/AFi. We know the history of it and the reasons. And it has been confirmed over and over again. However, as the strange story with the Phase backs for 6008AF shows, anything is possible. I bet there was not one photographer here who knew that Phase ever made P25 and P45 backs for the 6008AF. Only the P20 has been known as available for the 6008AF at some point, under the Rollei brand name. These facts show that not everything is always what the officials say are the facts.

By the way, the Hy6 project is NOT owned by Sinar. It is owned by Jenoptik, currently the parent company of Sinar, but only a major Sinar stakeholder at the time of development of the Hy6 (called JMF 645AF at the time). Sinar was only marginally involved in the development of the Hy6. They are selling the Hy6 because Jenoptik has decided so. Franke & Heidecke, the producer of the camera, is delivering its Hy6/AFi products to Jenoptik from where they will be further distributed to Leaf and Sinar.
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« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 08:02:49 PM by jpjespersen » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2007, 08:28:48 PM »
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Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I don't really understand why everyone is so insistent that phase can not make a back for the hy6.  I don't see any legal issues or problems, besides possible firmware updates not being compatible.  i know that for my car I can buy any part that is needed for my car, and it doesn't have to be manufactured by honda.  I would imagine it is the same for camera's.  If somebody wants to make a part for a camera, there is no legal reason why they can't, as far as I know.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2007, 09:03:54 PM »
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Interesting, however there are two very important differences between H3D and Hy6.  The H3D is limited to not only H3D backs, even other Hasselblad backs will not work on it due to its firmware restrictions.  Also the H3D body is not sold independently like the Hy6.  It does not seem to be a problem of legality.

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Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.
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« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 09:04:31 PM by JDG » Logged
mtomalty
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2007, 10:18:22 PM »
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Thierry

Do you have any idea of how many Hy6's have been delivered to endusers,not
including demo backs for the sales force?

I speculate that this number might be one reason that Phase does not appear to be
rushing to allocate the necessary resources towards getting their backs to work with the Hy6

Add to the mix their recent announcement concerning their own branded camera and I
wouldn't expect they will be prioritizing efforts in the Hy6 direction.

Purely speculation,of course.

Mark
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PatrikR
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2007, 06:46:09 AM »
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Thierry

Do you have any idea of how many Hy6's have been delivered to endusers,not
including demo backs for the sales force?

I speculate that this number might be one reason that Phase does not appear to be
rushing to allocate the necessary resources towards getting their backs to work with the Hy6

Add to the mix their recent announcement concerning their own branded camera and I
wouldn't expect they will be prioritizing efforts in the Hy6 direction.

Purely speculation,of course.

Mark
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Since PhaseOne is not a part of the Hy6 project where could they have received a Hy6? You can't make a back for something that doesn't exist. Maybe once they are plentily available they can order one from B&H and figure out how it works...

Yes Thierry - Why haven't anybody taken down a H3D? Do we have to wait for the chinese for resque. They already have their own BMW X5 with a touch of Toyota LandCuiser and Mercedes...
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2007, 07:02:24 AM »
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oh yes, and I even drove in one last week! But so far I've not seen any H3D with a "foreign" back.

 

Thierry

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Yes Thierry - Why haven't anybody taken down a H3D? Do we have to wait for the chinese for resque. They already have their own BMW X5 with a touch of Toyota LandCuiser and Mercedes...

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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2007, 07:25:46 AM »
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oh yes, and I even drove in one last week! But so far I've not seen any H3D with a "foreign" back.

 

Thierry
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I hope Hasselblad will be the first to develop an adaptation for its own "foreign" back (CF line).
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hcubell
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2007, 08:21:55 AM »
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No, they are free to sell Rolleiflex branded Hy6 bodies without a digital back to anyone.
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I don't think you understand the way commercial contracts work. It would be one thing for Phase to go out into the retail market and buy up a Rolleiflex Hy6 from a dealer, and a completely different thing for F&H, as the contract manufacturer of the Hy6 cameras that is legally permitted to only sell its variant with an interface for Sinar and Leaf backs, to sell a significant quantity of Rolleiflexes to Phase with the implied understanding that they would be converted into Phase Hy6s.
In any event, this is all idle speculation. There are so many copyright infringement and other issues around Phase trying to mate its backs with the digital interface of the Hy6 that it just will never happen. Phase is much better off focusing its resources on developing a new, integrated Mamiya camera system.
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PatrikR
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2007, 08:50:04 AM »
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I don't think you understand the way commercial contracts work. It would be one thing for Phase to go out into the retail market and buy up a Rolleiflex Hy6 from a dealer, and a completely different thing for F&H, as the contract manufacturer of the Hy6 cameras that is legally permitted to only sell its variant with an interface for Sinar and Leaf backs, to sell a significant quantity of Rolleiflexes to Phase with the implied understanding that they would be converted into Phase Hy6s.
In any event, this is all idle speculation. There are so many copyright infringement and other issues around Phase trying to mate its backs with the digital interface of the Hy6 that it just will never happen. Phase is much better off focusing its resources on developing a new, integrated Mamiya camera system.
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There are so few medium format users in the world that to develop a camera like Hy6 must be bordering total craziness. After spending fortunes on R&D why wouldn't they want to sell them as many as possible? I think it's totally naive to think that everybody will switch backs in order to get the new cool camera... Rollei with such long tradition will sure want back in to the business with enough hunger to sell hundreds of lenses, bodies and such. Somebody wrote that they are 85 now so there's plenty of expenses for any company to keep their salaries paid.

If Hasselblad want's to close the door on their existing customers and future sales of lenses and bodies that's their call. I don't think/hope all the other MF manufacturers are equally close minded. Poor Hasselblad lives a wet dream of being like Canon. MF cameras are not DSLRs waiting to be tossed away once obsolete every 6 months or so. MF cameras are modular systems that you invest into and upgrade along your career.

If it was up to me I would sell to anybody with enough cash. In a small market back stabbing will always cost dearly. I personally can not afford to choose my customers. Obviously some companies can.

MF world needs choices. Many here have expressed their interest towards Hy6. Maybe PhaseOne's Mamiya is not for everyone?

Patrik
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 08:53:00 AM by PatrikR » Logged

Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
samuel_js
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2007, 09:07:46 AM »
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And why would F&H sign a contract that prohibits them the selling camera bodies to the most popular DB manufacturer? Is it not in their interest to sell as much Rollei Hy6s as they can?
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2007, 10:22:21 AM »
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And why would F&H sign a contract that prohibits them the selling camera bodies to the most popular DB manufacturer? Is it not in their interest to sell as much Rollei Hy6s as they can?
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I believe F&H were approached by Jenoptik to build the new cameras. Jenoptik probably financed it in return for exclusivity.
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2007, 11:28:47 AM »
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Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it?Huh

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products.  It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:18:56 PM by lance_schad » Logged

LANCE SCHAD - DIGITAL TRANSITIONS - Phase One,Leaf/Mamiya,Arca-Swiss,Cambo value added reseller
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John Camp
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2007, 12:25:17 PM »
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The speculation about "foreign" backs on different cameras is largely nonsense. Unless you're one of those people who is simply fascinated by machinery (as opposed to photography) why would you spend, say, $30,000 on a back that may or may not work well with a particular camera, that may or may not be supported in the future, whose firmware upgrades that may work well with the native camera might not work at all with your combination? Could anyone honestly say that they will see startling differences in the print if they were able to use, say, a Phase back on a Hasselblad rather than the Hassy back? And assuming that such a thing could even be done, there would be so few sales for Phase, you have to ask how much effort Phase would put into supporting such a project five years in the future. My estimate: none.

The hard fact is, I believe, that we will have three systems (or four, depending on how you count the Hy6). They will produce very similar IQ, with few differences except possibly in extreme blow-ups; those slight differences may be reflected in price (as between Mamiya and Hassy, for example.) So we wind up back in the film era: do you want to pay more for a Hassy, and perhaps get a slightly better lens and more prestige, or less for a Mamiya, and get everything you need for the high-quality magazine repro?

JC
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jpjespersen
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2007, 12:28:44 PM »
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Ditto.

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Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it?Huh

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products.  It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-4196
lance@captureintegration.com
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Dustbak
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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2007, 01:24:00 PM »
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The speculation about "foreign" backs on different cameras is largely nonsense. Unless you're one of those people who is simply fascinated by machinery (as opposed to photography) why would you spend, say, $30,000 on a back that may or may not work well with a particular camera, that may or may not be supported in the future, whose firmware upgrades that may work well with the native camera might not work at all with your combination?

Hasselblad is expecting people to spend over 30K USD on a back that is not even supported by any of their current bodies.

Hasselblad is claiming further develop the CF line of backs, with which I am pleased but currently there is no Hasselblad body that is in current production that can be used with the CF backs.

I find that a strange situation.

I would love to have an adapter for the H3 for my CF back. Yes, in that case Hasselblad also needs to start selling separate H3 bodies.

No the H3 is not the same as the H2. The H2 is a discontinued body and cannot be bought new anymore. The H2 is at the end of the line, the H3 at the beginning.
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josayeruk
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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2007, 01:39:54 PM »
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Hasselblad is expecting people to spend over 30K USD on a back that is not even supported by any of their current bodies.
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Not really.  The H3D is not a back, cannot be bought as a 'back' and is not supplied in any other form than a paired camera body and digital unit.

But you can of course take that sensor unit off and use it with a view camera, or any other kind of camera that has an 'H' type plate or can be adapted to take an H type plate.

Jo S.x
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Dustbak
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« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2007, 01:56:20 PM »
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Not really. The H3D is not a back, cannot be bought as a 'back' and is not supplied in any other form than a paired camera body and digital unit.

But you can of course take that sensor unit off and use it with a view camera, or any other kind of camera that has an 'H' type plate or can be adapted to take an H type plate.

Jo S.x
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I am talking about the Hasselblad CF Backs! These are bought as a back and until previously were the only multishot backs available from Hasselblad (CF39MS & CF22MS). With the ending of the H2 this back, the CF, has no current body.

The Hasselblad CF backs use adapterplates to fit on many different bodies. Plates are there for: Mamiya, V, H, Rollei, etc.. but not for the H3.

The CF39 costs somewhere in the Mid 20K USD and the CF39MS well over 30K USD. You can only use them with the discontinued H2 if you want to use it with Hasselblad H. (You are not going to use a MS on a V body, at least not if you want to do MS).

THE CF BACKS ARE STILL CURRENT! Hasselblad even has announced future development of the CF. Hopefully that will be H3 adapter plates.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 02:12:10 AM by Dustbak » Logged
samuel_js
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« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2007, 02:57:50 PM »
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I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
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I'm currently H2 (and three lenses) user and I'm ready to switch as soon as the new Phaseone camera is out. Hasselblad will be history for me.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 03:44:18 PM by samuel_js » Logged
hcubell
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« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2007, 03:58:11 PM »
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I think that my posting record shows that I understand more of this F&H/Jenoptik relationship than most here. The contract says that F&H is not permitted to offer the Hy6 with any digital back. But selling bodies without a back is not restricted.
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I can assure you that Jenoptik's legal advisors would not share your interpretation of the contract language governing the relationship between F&H, Jenoptik and Leaf.
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Snook
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« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2007, 06:09:08 PM »
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I can assure you that Jenoptik's legal advisors would not share your interpretation of the contract language governing the relationship between F&H, Jenoptik and Leaf.
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HassleBlad gambled and Lost if you ask me..  
I never liked Hasssleblad apart from their optics which are great. But their recent decision to close out the other guys was a Bad marketing move. also going closed system was a bad move. Would not be surprised if the new HDIV went back some how...:+}
If Leica is the rumored lens company that will work with mamiya then Hassleblad is really going to be hating life...  
Snook
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