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Author Topic: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6  (Read 21259 times)
Dustbak
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« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2007, 12:52:13 AM »
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Euhh...

Apple OS is only a Unix based OS since OSX! OSX86 is an illegal hack that runs on PC as far as Apple goes.

@Techtalk
Your last longer post was very well put and had much more nuance than the statements I reacted on. Thank you.
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TechTalk
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« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2007, 02:57:51 AM »
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@Techtalk
Your last longer post was very well put and had much more nuance than the statements I reacted on. Thank you.
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No problem. We all call them as we see them. Best wishes to you.
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thsinar
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« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2007, 03:17:51 AM »
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EPd,

we will not start again, will we?

Facts are as I have described them, if you want it or not.

The link I have provided does actually work well for me. Read it, it says following (extract):

Press Release from 09/26/07:

"Photographers and the specialist photographic press are today going on a journey to "laser worlds" into Europe's largest tin mines at the showcase mine in Pöhla (Saxony). The Jenoptik Group is presenting its new Sinar Hy6 system to the specialist photo world and as such firing the starting shot to launch the sale of the new medium format camera for professional photographers.

The Hy6 mid format camera, the recipient of the Photokina Star 2006, was designed by Jenoptik and forms the basis for the new Sinar Hy6 system family. The camera system is equipped with the efficient digital camera backs of the Sinar eMotion series which are also based on technology from Jena".

I you wish, I can send it to you offline.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

In that PDF press release there is not one word claiming that Jenoptik has done the camera's design. And the supplied link to the Jenoptik page generates an error page saying that it cannot be found. I spelled out the role of the different parties involved with the Hy6 design, production and marketing quite precise in this posting: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=147498

Please keep the facts straight.

Thanks,
EPd
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 03:21:00 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2007, 06:46:11 AM »
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All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful. In fact, their computer sales are growing at more than twice the industry average. It seems when offered a choice, some segements of the market, and some consumers, prefer a proprietary single-source computer and operating system. Some do not. There is room in the market for both options–and having both options extends consumer choices by offering different system solutions with each having unique advantages.
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Yes choices - I can hook up a Eizo, LG, Samsung monitor to my Mac Pro, and print to Epson, HP or Canon printers with no problem. I can install to Mac Pro any Sata drive and put third party memory. Even tapedrives made for PCs work in OSX.

Today I can't buy a Hasselblad H where I can put the latest PhaseOne, Leaf or Sinar back. But I can by a Mac that will run Windows. Besides my point was what happened to highly specialized proprietary closed systems like SGI.

If Apple for some reason would go back to proprietary connectors and busses and made software that would prohibit installment of third party options then it would be closed system like Hasselblad. Meaning if I wanted a new improved Mac I would have to buy new Apple labeled monitor, printer and what ever extras I needed. Is this the way you want things to be?
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
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« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2007, 06:56:40 AM »
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All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful. In fact, their computer sales are growing at more than twice the industry average. It seems when offered a choice, some segements of the market, and some consumers, prefer a proprietary single-source computer and operating system. Some do not. There is room in the market for both options–and having both options extends consumer choices by offering different system solutions with each having unique advantages.
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Apple is growing even more since they opened to other OS. The release of iTunes and iPods for Windows for example. Actually, the new Leopard (and tiger) is compatible (but not supported yet) with pcs too. I tell you because I've seen it  with my eyes. This is not speculation.
And you can install windows on a Mac. The macs will take hard drives of any kind, optic drives, screens etc... I don't think is a closed system at all.
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TechTalk
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« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2007, 03:26:24 PM »
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Yes choices - I can hook up a Eizo, LG, Samsung monitor to my Mac Pro, and print to Epson, HP or Canon printers with no problem. I can install to Mac Pro any Sata drive and put third party memory. Even tapedrives made for PCs work in OSX.

Today I can't buy a Hasselblad H where I can put the latest PhaseOne, Leaf or Sinar back. But I can by a Mac that will run Windows. Besides my point was what happened to highly specialized proprietary closed systems like SGI.

If Apple for some reason would go back to proprietary connectors and busses and made software that would prohibit installment of third party options then it would be closed system like Hasselblad. Meaning if I wanted a new improved Mac I would have to buy new Apple labeled monitor, printer and what ever extras I needed. Is this the way you want things to be?
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Apple is growing even more since they opened to other OS. The release of iTunes and iPods for Windows for example. Actually, the new Leopard (and tiger) is compatible (but not supported yet) with pcs too. I tell you because I've seen it  with my eyes. This is not speculation.
And you can install windows on a Mac. The macs will take hard drives of any kind, optic drives, screens etc... I don't think is a closed system at all.
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And there, ladies and gentlemen, lies the problem when you start comparing Apples and Oranges. I hesitated to reply to the post with the obvious misstatement that "all other UNIX systems are pretty much dead now." In retrospect, I shouldn't have bothered because it is pointless and irrelevant to compare different products in different markets.

Products, and markets for them, evolve based on their own unique set of driving forces that comprise (but are not limited to) history, tradition, breaks from tradition, standards, breaks from standards, technology developments, infrastructure, market structure, market volume, market shares, market divisions, distribution, finances, supply, demand... the list could go on and on. Market analysis is a subtle and complex skill. Comparison on message boards of various products in different markets, however, is generally performed with a meat ax. Generally by someone with an ax to grind.

These kinds of comparison threads drag on and on and, lead to no conclusion and eventually wither and die from boredom. The arguments fall into this pattern: 1) A broad generalization is made comparing product A in industry B to product X in market Y. 2) A response follows that is more specific, but framed by recognizing corelations that support the argument and ignoring the ones that do not. 3) Repeat step #2 with more detail or a different corelation. 4) Repeat step #3. 5) Repeat step #3. 6) Repeat step #3 until no one is listening and everyone moves on.

I could drag this one on by pointing to the holes in your arguments–the corelations that you chose to ignore. I won't, for the reasons above. It is an argument that would generate a lot of heat and no light.
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thsinar
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« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2007, 04:53:48 PM »
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EPd,

so WHAT?

My link to Jenoptik OFFICIAL press release DOES work, and this is what I am refering to. Since you dont seem to be able to read it, I will find attach the link especially for you again:

http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID...ageid=67&lang=1

Just copy it in your browser and read.

ART-KON-TOR is a German company which has done the external design of this camera, commissioned by Jenoptik (not by F&H), period. I know it as well as you do.

The Swiss company which has done the electronics is well known by me and I have explained you offline where it is located and who is the people working in, period.

I am not denying that F&H has participated in the construction of this camera, but at a level explained by me in my previous post, period.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry,

Quoting internet links is something I can do too:

http://www.art-kon-tor.de/produktentwicklu...renzen/hy6.html

It's in German. "Die von ART-KON-TOR designte Kamera für Profifotografen stellt im Mittelformatbereich einen Meilenstein dar und sorgte nicht nur auf der Messe für Furore." For those who can't read German, it says: "The by ART-KON-TOR designed camera (Hy6) for professional photographers sets a milestone in medium format, and didn't just make waves at the fair only".

Attached are two images showing the early Hy6 design studies on the wall of ART-KON-TOR's offices.
[attachment=4036:attachment] [attachment=4037:attachment]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2007, 05:55:41 PM »
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EPd,

Good that the link worked this time!

it does not make any sense to argue. You have your opinion and you stick to it, I have my information and I stick to it as well. A press release is a lie and/or propaganda?! Well, I let you responsible for this one.

Fact is what has been stated by Jenoptik, the owner, decider and payer of this project, and this has been published (made available to public knowledge). And you would like me to deny what the company I am working for is publishing? Are you serious?!

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote
Thierry,

If ART-KON-TOR has designed the outside of the camera, the Swiss electronics company the electronic parts and F&H the mechanical inside, what exactly did Jenoptik design of this camera? The co-operation between the hired companies? Even IF a design team from Jenoptik designed any part of this camera, you could hardly claim that Jenoptik has designed the entire camera. The "official" Jenoptik announcement (the link worked this time, thanks) is not less official than that of ART-KON-TOR. I don't like lies. Especially when they are for propaganda purposes. To me Jenoptik's statement comes very close to such propaganda. And I would hope to see you be more careful in copying such badly founded claims, instead of fiercely defending them. You know how the different parties have contributed to the final product. I know how they have. There isn't much difference in what we both know. So why claim that the Hy6 is designed by Jenoptik? Isn't it enough that they own it? And that they paid for it? And that they own the rights to license access to it? And that they are handed over the new patents involved in the design? But all this does not make them the designer of it.... period.

EPd
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 08:52:19 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2007, 06:14:11 PM »
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It sums up nothing!

A press release with information has been published. By definition, a press release is an official statement in which a company or person publishes information expected to be true. As such AND for having been informed, I do insist on this information.

Most of the companies (included in the MF field) do work with external persons/companies to engineer/design/do R&D/manufacture/mount/assemble, etc ....: the important part is where the decision(s) are taken. I do not want to play down the role of F&H, far from me this idea: they have their fair share in this work as well, obviously. Even/also Leaf has its fair share of cooperation in this project. I simply want to emphasize that all concerning the Hy6 design/manufacturing has been decided at the Jenoptik level.

Best to you too,
Thierry

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That indeed, dear Thierry, sums up very well the sad part of our disagreement.

All the best,
EPd
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 08:02:59 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2007, 07:53:53 PM »
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Thierry,

If ART-KON-TOR has designed the outside of the camera, the Swiss electronics company the electronic parts and F&H the mechanical inside, what exactly did Jenoptik design of this camera? The co-operation between the hired companies? Even IF a design team from Jenoptik designed any part of this camera, you could hardly claim that Jenoptik has designed the entire camera. The "official" Jenoptik announcement (the link worked this time, thanks) is not less official than that of ART-KON-TOR. I don't like lies. Especially when they are for propaganda purposes. To me Jenoptik's statement comes very close to such propaganda. And I would hope to see you be more careful in copying such badly founded claims, instead of fiercely defending them. You know how the different parties have contributed to the final product. I know how they have. There isn't much difference in what we both know. So why claim that the Hy6 is designed by Jenoptik? Isn't it enough that they own it? And that they paid for it? And that they own the rights to license access to it? And that they are handed over the new patents involved in the design? But all this does not make them the designer of it.... period.

EPd
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In the words of Bill Clinton:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
thsinar
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« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2007, 08:01:49 PM »
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you are right, Steve: we all have our own truths. I stand for mine.

Best regards,
Thierry

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In the words of Bill Clinton:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2007, 12:31:04 AM »
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This discussion about who designed what vs. who made what decisions is an interesting, juicy one, but it there is no good end to it. Small story:

In the 1920's, there was a woman named Charlotte Perriand who worked for Le Corbusier - she was in the studio there, under his managment. She designed a special chaise, which was subsequently marketed and has been long understood to be Le Corbusier's. She did the prototytpe, he took it over and gave it a bit of LC flair.

Here's the fun part: without Le Corbusier, there would be no chair. Without Perriand, there would be no design, and hence no chair. Without the atelier, there would be no chair.

So who designed what? Rather than looking for definition in a most un-defined area (design), it might be more fruitful to look for collaborators, and varied (positive) roles. As TH says, without Jenoptik acting as a client, project leader, and backer, there would be no project. I doubt that Jenoptik designed every bit of the camera, but neither did F&H. Yes, maybe one did more than the other, but rather than squabbling over that, I'd rather they make and sell more cameras, so we can all have one.

Fighting over the credit for the genius of the new child is a bit premature - lets hope it makes out  successfully. There's a long way to go.

Geoff G
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thsinar
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« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2007, 05:49:49 AM »
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EPd,

your comparison is quite "strange".

Beside that, credit to all companies have been given, at their right level of involvement.

I think we better leave it here, since we can only agree to disagree.

Best to you and with all my respect despite our different views,
Thierry

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Geoffrey,

I do not agree to what you're saying. Every good leader should know how important it is to credit everybody involved in the joint effort properly, if he wants to rely upon these people again in the future. Jenoptik wants to be the leader of this project and so all parties involved deserve proper credit.

When I commission a painter to make me a painting, maybe even to my very precise instructions, does it make me a painter? No.

We as photographers, do we like someone else's name under our photographs? Well, I certainly don't like that.

Part of my education is European copyright law. It says that you are the author (writer/designer/photographer) of any work that you make as long as you did not make it as an employee of the company that you are working for. Contract authors will always remain to be the author of their work, no matter what the contract says. You can sell the rights of ownership and exploitation of a work and you can even agree to not being credited for the work. But it is lawfully impossible to hand over the authorship itself. So, even if I paint my own name to that painting from above, and even when the original painter agrees to doing so, it will never make me the author of the work itself. Jenoptik is a German company, so they have to stick to the law when claiming who is the designer of their camera.

Will it make any difference to us, customers using those products, to know who designed them? Maybe not for everybody, but for me it does make a difference to know from what breed of design my camera stems. In this particular case I like to know that the mechanical solutions come from F&H because I have many years of good experiences with their products, while I have had considerably more problems with Jenoptik's. (Just for the record: I have no intention to say anything generic about the quality of Jenoptik products. The problems have always been solved under warranty.)

So, as much as I like to be informed about the heritage of the products I work with, the companies involved in the designing of those products have a legal right to be credited for their effort. This can only be beneficial to all.

EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2008, 06:24:00 PM »
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EPd,

With all due respect:

This is a known information and old "news", since quite some time, from you but also freely from the web.

I would rather need some technical details about this setup, about its distribution channels, etc ....

It seems to me that you are the spokesman for all Rolleiflex matters.

Can you enlighten us all?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

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It is always nice to see that other sources can confirm my information, now and then:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=170233
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2008, 09:15:55 PM »
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EPd,

I don't see any clash, rather the need to get clarifications about the "Rolleimetric" camera and how people can get it, if interested. We do not need statements like "Have you seen, I was right"!
From this point of view, I don't see your need to start a clash and arguments. And I guess you don't "need to offer some "proof"", like you say it: members have enough judgement to sort it out by themselves.

I am sincerely also and slowly fed up with your allusions about my position and not being a "real" photographer: I have nothing to prove and I have probably made my living from photography (by shooting in my studio) a long time before you even started. In this respect, and since you wish to list always the links to statements that I did, I suggest you to link to the very first one, which explains in detail  who I am, where I come from and what is my "real" background. That would be much more interesting. All we know is that photography is your profession for over 15 years. I have been myself starting in 1980: therefore a bit longer than yourself, nearly twice as long, isn't it?

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....topic=13504&hl=

Nobody has ever put in question the availability of Phase backs on the Rolleiflex 6008: you suggest the contrary. Misleading, at the very least!

It has been informed by others and it is also well known that the Rolleiflex was available as a bundle with the P20.

What will effectively happen with Rollei-Metric, Phase One and the Rolleiflex Hy6 model, that's another story which I do not wish to elaborate on.

Now you claim that you cannot make a declaration in public, when on the other hand you don't miss any single opportunity to jump in whenever you wish to "rectify" posts made by others or to write that you were right: rather a strange behavior. I did not ask you to make an official statement in the name of a company, but to share your deep insider knowledge (your own words) the way you claim to have it. Certainly statements like "I know it and I have insider information" does not bring anybody any further, even more when those claims are made under the cover of anonymity. You cannot on one hand make loud claims about sensitive and important issues, and then complain that people wish to know a bit more about it.

I did not question your quality of the information, with exception to the Sinar Hy6 and who has developed this product, and I still do, whatever your claims and suggestions are again here.

What I questioned and am still doing, is the way you are intervening, nothing more. And if you are honest, you will remember that I had written you the very same in my PM to you, in answering yours. And I did explain to you as well, that I did not wish you doing claims involving the Sinar name and brand, which you did a few times. This simply to avoid confusions and because it is not your prerogative at all to do so.

Now, if you want the reason WHY I did not mention the existence of the 45° finder, I'll give it to you: Sinar has not (yet) decided to have this item in the list of accessories for the Sinar Hy6. We are currently looking at it, and I shall inform in due time, like I always did. Period. It would have been wrong to announce such when not available. Therefore, I kindly but firmly ask you to not trying to suggest my non-knowledge of what I am speaking about.

Thank you for "the poor job" I am doing here. I don't need any flowers. I am simply doing my part of the work, with my knowledge and with the knowledge of some of my colleagues, with the very strong wish to provide an information as accurate and true as possible. We are all doing our job at the best of our abilities, be sure of that. It has been rather appreciated on this forum so far, despite you putting in doubt me doing a good job.

Last but not least important point for me: I kindly but firmly ask you as well not to write sentences like "Your barking about it will no scare me away....". I have first no prerogative and "power" to do so, secondly it is not even my intention, and thirdly, it does not appear to me having barked by any means!

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

edited for correction

Quote
Thierry,

The last time we clashed you were quite clear about not wanting my respect:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=158203

I have always been clear about my positon: I am independent regarding camera matters, unlike you. I am a photographer. Not in the sense that you claim to be ( http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=124541 ), but a real photographer, who makes his living with photography and who lives for it:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=143490 On top of that I have quite precisely explained my position in a PM, sent to you on October 10th 2007. Asking for a declaration in public while I have voluntarily made the effort to tell you exactly where I'm coming from is rather dishonest, I would say.

It was merely you who has questioned the quality of my information several times already, while trying to put in your "weight" as a Sinar representative. Still, so far my information has proved to be correct. My claims about the availability of the Phase backs for the 6008 are just one example. My pointing at public sources was just because I felt I needed to offer some "proof", but I would never have done so wouldn't I have known it was correct at a deeper level. I have reported all kinds of backround information regarding the Hy6, its development and the announcement of several products for it, like the 45 degree prism finder, which you never mentioned, but is available now, as predicted by me. I even had to set straight some of your claims regarding the Hy6. Does that make me the spokesman of all Rolleiflex matters? No, I wish someone would do a better job than I do regarding this brand. Does this mean that I should leave talking about these matters to the officials? Hopefully not, given the very poor job that they have been doing in providing relevant information to us, photographers (and that even includes you). Your barking about it will no scare me away, if that is what you would like to know. And regarding the matter of "respect": is there anything more I should "enlighten us all" about?   

EPd
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 06:56:30 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2008, 10:06:51 PM »
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you guys have way too much free time!
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thsinar
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« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2008, 10:12:11 PM »
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you are right, and I wish I would not loose it this way.

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you guys have way too much free time!
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« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2008, 10:36:12 PM »
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Hi Thierry,

One thing I like about the Forum on LL is the fact that You, Yaya and some bloke from Phase in Florida make yourselves available to answer questions us photographers might have concerning your products.

I actually contacted a person (who will remain name less) yesterday at Mamiya Japan and suggested that they too have some one available on this forum and they replied that they were going to take it up there superiors.

So at the end of the day don't let this dick head from Utah piss ya off mate as I greatly appreciate your advise.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 10:41:55 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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jpjespersen
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« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2008, 11:06:23 PM »
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If your going to be like that..

Your an idiot.  And your website sucks..  mate.



Quote
So at the end of the day don't let this dick head from Utah piss ya off mate as I greatly appreciate your advise.

Cheers

Simon
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 11:07:10 PM by jpjespersen » Logged
jpjespersen
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« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2008, 11:09:31 PM »
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I wasn't trying to piss off thiery, just making a response about the abnormally long postings, just rambling at each other and not giving much info.  It just seemed like a lot of wasted time, like I am spending right now, was put in to it.
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