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Author Topic: Hy6 Michael's review  (Read 43269 times)
david o
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« on: November 25, 2007, 03:36:19 PM »
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I just read it...
I think Thierry will have few questions to answer...
Hy6
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mahleu
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2007, 03:51:42 PM »
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I think Thierry will have few questions to answer...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Like why couldn't they make it pretty? And why are all the pictures "exposure unknown", does the camera not record this data?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 03:53:41 PM by mahleu » Logged

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michael
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2007, 04:03:47 PM »
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Just FYI, Thierry and his colleagues at Sinar were shown the review several days ago so that they could correct any factual errors or inaccuracies prior to publication. This they have done.

As for (why are all the pictures "exposure unknown") that was explained in the article. The camera does not transmit to the back the aperture and shutter speed so it can be recorded in the EXIF data fields, and therefore there is no way to tell what it is after the fact.

This is obviously a serious problem which needs to be addressed by Sinar ASAP.

Michael
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pprachun
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2007, 04:07:08 PM »
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I used to wonder whether Michael was anti-Hassy.
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2007, 04:13:27 PM »
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Michael,

I purchased the 6008 with the eMotion 75 LV.  I have used it intensively since in difficult, high contrast situations mainly for architectural briefs.

I agree with you that the biggest problem is the lack of (even basic) exif data. this becomes a major issue when you forget to make a white shading file with with a wide angle lens (I pretty much only use wide angle lenses) and you want to correct.

Your review however left out one MAJOR aspect  - a definite PRO - and that is the highlight recovery that occurs with Brumbaers DNG conversions. This pushes the dynamic range way out beyond all the other backs I tested and is a huge plus for those working out of the studio with more 'uncontrollable' situations.

Murray
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david o
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2007, 04:22:20 PM »
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As for (why are all the pictures "exposure unknown") that was explained in the article. The camera does not transmit to the back the aperture and shutter speed so it can be recorded in the EXIF data fields, and therefore there is no way to tell what it is after the fact.

This is obviously a serious problem which needs to be addressed by Sinar ASAP.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the question is not "why" the exposure are unknown but "why" the camera and back do not talk to eachother (expo, Iso) are they in bad relationship lately... I know that they did travel in a tight space and sometime it can create tension but to the point not to talk to eachother when it's time to do business that makes not too much sens.  
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 04:37:10 PM by david olivier » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2007, 04:34:03 PM »
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Thanks for the post.

I think Michael makes a valid point about the dual charger. However, I have seen chargers for these batteries got for around $10 so it's not a big deal, just a one-time inconvenience. A supplied dual charger would be an improvement.

Nice to know the Hy6 uses a V290.

I think Michael missed a point when he referred to a hypothetical 56x56mm sensor. Any jump up in sensor size would leave the Hasselblad behind.

Michael also talks about putting this camera on an L bracket but I don't see why anyone would ever turn this camera on its side. Especially once the rotating adapter is supplied. This is one of the nice features of the 6x6 format camera, whether one uses a square or rectangular sensor.

I think Michael made a mistake when he discussed the mirror viewfinder too: "The last time I saw one of these on a medium format camera was on a Mamiya C330 TLR in the mid 1970s." The 6008 (which he used to own) uses a mirror-based viewfinder.

I hope the issue of setting the ISO on the camera not changing the setting on the back changes with a future upgrade, although once the user knows this, he would just use the back to makes any ISO changes.

I've never experienced the battery latch issue which Michael mentions. Was this a faulty unit? Or did Michael not push the battery in properly?

I have held an eMotion LCD next to a pre-plus series Phase One P30 LCD screen, and the Sinar's was definitely better. I found the comparison a bit inaccurate.

The lack of EXIF data is an issue. I look forward to finding out more about this. Firmware issue again?

Michael mentions an e54 back, but I believe he should have written '54LV'.

The two things I would like to see improved are 1) the EXIF data issue, and 2) it would be nice if the camera battery could power the back as well. I'd prefer to change batteries more often but only have to keep an eye on one battery level.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 04:41:42 PM by foto-z » Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 04:37:32 PM »
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Hi
I had the opportunity of working with the same exact hy6 a week ago in the studio. We were shooting studio tethered. I am not going to talk about the back or software because Leaf will have there version soon. This is about the camera. My notes are battery life was excellent shot 700 images & there was still plenty of power. View finder is BRIGHT. So bright in fact I decided to use manual focus as the camera was locked off on a tripod. For not having a manual I found this to be a very easy camera to use. for vertical shots I just rotated the back not the camera, to me that is so user friendly! The lenses are not heavy & this is a very easy camera to hand hold. There is a need for a lock for the f stop dial as it is just below the shutter release. I can't wait to try this with the Emotion 22 or the Leaf 54s, 65s & 75s. The speed of these backs will vary from .87 > 1.1 f/s, excellent for people. As far as file quality from the Sinar 75 it was excellent with beautiful skin. This might sound silly but the camera has a nice sound.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2007, 04:37:52 PM »
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I used to wonder whether Michael was anti-Hassy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that he has always been clear that he didn't think the closure of the H3D was the right thing to do both for purchasers of backs and for Hassy themselves.

On the other hand his soon to be published high end comparison will apparently include a H3D39 II, and I am fully confident that his conclusions will be objective and fair as far as the relative performance of the cameras/backs goes.

Beyond that, it is for each of us to decide whether we want to invest in a closed system (something we have been doing with Canon and Nikon for years) or whether we prefer to invest in a more open platform.

There are plus and minus for both directions.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2007, 04:44:46 PM »
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I think Michael makes a valid point about the dual charger.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Firstly I have never had the battery latch thing either - Ive had two of those backs now - I think you had faulty product **

The battery /charger thing is a small issue and a big one

For $35000 just give us 12 batteries and three double chargers

one for the car and one for the office and one for home

While they may be video batteries available off the net life is too short to stop and think about that - we are trying to earn back that $35k

and I dont want to buy a battery from a third party - fried boards and void warranties spring to mind

I ordered another battery off my sinar uk rep and it took a week or so and cost $150 odd, I have two now and still have to rotate them during a days shooting and im knackered if I accidentally leave the back on all night

sometimes these people seem to forget that $35k or $36k is not a deal breaker - SERVICE IS

and chuck in Two FW cables and a bunch of those instantly lost connectors that go from the back to a viewcam and three copies of the CD that has the backs unique software and e-mail/phone us as new sofware/firmware updates become available

MR
does the AF work ?
Also you didnt mention the built in memory which creates and instant back up when used with a CF card and bufferless shooting without

**Edit - thinking on (about the dodgy latch) one has to wonder what it says about Sinars QC and general attitude that they let out a back to a globally watched player like MR without giving it a good shakedown first - poor show - 20% of the review is quibbling over minor details that shouldnt have come to light - it does matter because it affects perception of a fundamentally great product - and dumb things like dodgy latches, $10 batteries and $5 leads can stop a shoot in front of a client - stuff of my nightmares

S
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 05:23:57 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2007, 05:02:16 PM »
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I enjoyed reading the article.  I like M.R.s writing style.   I am anxious to see the comparison with the canon 1DsmkIII.  I know the MF/digital back image quality will be better -- but i am anxious to see by how much.  Mark

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I just read it...
I think Thierry will have few questions to answer...
Hy6
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TechTalk
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2007, 06:26:36 PM »
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I thought the review was thoughtful and well written. The only part that I have a differing perspective on is the "Postscript–Be careful what you wish for"

"No. Anticipating, or with actual knowledge that they would not longer be able to sell backs to fit on the market's leading platform, the H series Hasselblad, Sinar, Leaf and Phase One did what they had to – find alternative camera platforms. What should they have done? Said – Oh well, no more places to put our backs. Guess we'll just curl up in a corner and die."

Exactly right. All of the remaining companies in the medium-format business, both back and camera makers, have been doing what they have had to do. The few remaining camera makers couldn't go on losing buckets of money making camera systems without the revenue from digital backs to sustain them and the back makers need camera platforms. That camera makers and back makers would combine in some way was inevitable. Hasselblad was simply the first to take a step in that direction, but the combining of finances for back and camera makers had to happen eventually–even if Hasselblad did not exist!

"So in the end, and likely faster than they thought it would happen, Hasselblad found that while they no longer had to compete with Sinar, Leaf and Phase One in selling digital backs to go on their cameras, they now had two new camera to compete with AND no more third party backs to generate camera body and lens sales for them."

Based on conversations that I've had with various people at Hasselblad over the past few years, I can tell you that the partnerships and product developments from their competitors in the back and camera markets come as no surprise. It is exactly what they have expected to see develop for the simple reason that Hasselblad and their competitors are responding to the very same financial, technological and market pressures that have been building up for years in the medium-format market's transition from film to digital. The market and financial reality is what has forced Hasselblad and their competitors to change and adapt. It is NOT Hasselblad product announcements that are creating the necessary changes in the financial, product and marketing relationships between camera and back makers.

"I thought that this was a dumb move on Hasselblad management's part then, and said so, and believe this to be the case even more so now. So, as the saying goes – Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it."

Nobody, including Hasselblad, ever wished for a market where camera makers lost money at an alarming rate and digital back makers profited, but that is how things have developed over the years. It is where things have stood for too long of a period to remain static. You may wish for the good old days, but the party is now over and somebody has to start collecting to pay the tab. You may not like the price to be paid in the loss of unrestricted compatibility, but the continued trend in this direction would have happened regardless of any wishes–even if Hasselblad had just disappeared.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 07:04:08 PM by TechTalk » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 02:42:55 AM »
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I shall certainly come back more in details about all the questions raised here in this tread, as soon I have some more time. But let me make a first remark:

It DOES amaze me how a review which is mainly very positive can be "downplayed" with such minor details. The camera was in excellent condition and complete: the dodgy latch is something which has to be checked what happened. Honestly, this is the first time I hear/see this happening and it shall be checked carefully. But please bear with me: don't use such to denigrate a product, that's unfair.

I shall be back soon with more answers.

Thierry

Quote
**Edit - thinking on (about the dodgy latch) one has to wonder what it says about Sinars QC and general attitude that they let out a back to a globally watched player like MR without giving it a good shakedown first - poor show - 20% of the review is quibbling over minor details that shouldnt have come to light - it does matter because it affects perception of a fundamentally great product - and dumb things like dodgy latches, $10 batteries and $5 leads can stop a shoot in front of a client - stuff of my nightmares

S
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:35:09 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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michael
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 06:54:01 AM »
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Everything affects the usability of a camera; ergonomics, features and functions, and image quality. Some people find one aspect or another more important.

When I report on a camera I try and consider all aspects. I know which are my hot buttons, but I don't know what may be to others. So I cover them all.

Some things simply are there, and don't stand out. Autofocus is one of them. It works, and works competently, but is neither better nor worse in my experience that that on any other medium format camera. The same with autoexposure. Works fine. Therefore for the sake of not having a report that is so long that people nod off, I leave out the obvious, only mentioning those things that are either problematic or exceptional.

The latch was a real issue. I spent an afternoon with the camera on the back seat of my car, driving over washboard roads. On more than one occasion the battery latch popped. I checked it and it seemed to be functioning properly and I couldn't get it to spring by whacking the camera with the palm of my hand. But, that afternoon in the car it sprang 2 or 3 times. This makes it worth reporting. Is this a single camera flaw, or not? No way to know.

The lack of aperture and shutter speed data being communicated to the back is an example of something that could be a single unit flaw or simply a design error. On issues like this I was in constant communication with Sinar asking them if what I was seeing was general, or specific to my unit.

So in the end the reader has to make a decision as to what is relevant to them and what isn't. The reviewer's job is to comment on whatever he sees as honestly as possible.

I liked the Hy6 and the back. Yes, it has flaws (what product doesn't)? It's a brave to attempt to penetrate a niche market and should be commended. But its flaws should not be overlooked.

Michael
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samuel_js
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2007, 07:05:11 AM »
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Everything affects the usability of a camera; ergonomics, features and functions, and image quality. Some people find one aspect or another more important.

When I report on a camera I try and consider all aspects. I know which are my hot buttons, but I don't know what may be to others. So I cover them all.

Some things simply are there, and don't stand out. Autofocus is one of them. It works, and works competently, but is neither better nor worse in my experience that that on any other medium format camera. The same with autoexposure. Works fine. Therefore for the sake of not having a report that is so long that people nod off, I leave out the obvious, only mentioning those things that are either problematic or exceptional.

The latch was a real issue. I spent an afternoon with the camera on the back seat of my car, driving over washboard roads. On more than one occasion the battery latch popped. I checked it and it seemed to be functioning properly and I couldn't get it to spring by whacking the camera with the palm of my hand. But, that afternoon in the car it sprang 2 or 3 times. This makes it worth reporting. Is this a single camera flaw, or not? No way to know.

The lack of aperture and shutter speed data being communicated to the back is an example of something that could be a single unit flaw or simply a design error. On issues like this I was in constant communication with Sinar asking them if what I was seeing was general, or specific to my unit.

So in the end the reader has to make a decision as to what is relevant to them and what isn't. The reviewer's job is to comment on whatever he sees as honestly as possible.

I liked the Hy6 and the back. Yes, it has flaws (what product doesn't)? It's a brave to attempt to penetrate a niche market and should be commended. But its flaws should not be overlooked.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael, about the pros of the camera you write; "Open system with back and supplier choices".
In which way is this camera an open system? It works only with Sinar backs. And the Afi will take Leaf backs only...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 05:44:58 AM by samuel_js » Logged
michael
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2007, 07:42:50 AM »
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Michael, about the pros of the camera you write; "Open system with back and supplier choices".
In witch way is this camera an open system? It works only with Sinar backs. And the Afi will take Leaf backs only...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156061\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is not correct. Firstly, the lenses and finders are completely interchangeable.

Secondly, a Hy6 camera, regardless of whether it has a Sinar, Leaf, or Rolleiflex name plate on it will take any back from any back marker that has an adaptor plate. If you read my article you will see a side view of the e-Motion 75 with its adaptor plate. The camera itself doesn't accept a back directly, it only accepts a plate and the plate then attaches to a standardized fitting on the camera. These plates work on any Hy6. That's the whole point of open systems.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:43:50 AM by michael » Logged
Murray Fredericks
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2007, 08:08:44 AM »
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My Battery latch pops also all the time on the 75lv - and so does the latch on the one the store lent me.

It's not really a big problem as it only seems to  happen when the camera is not being used. I guess it must need a stronger spring?

Murray

PS Michael,you really should review Brumbaer and test the extra dynamic range gained via its highlight recovery - it really can have a major impact on the what can be shot and the quality of the final image...
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Bernd B.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2007, 08:12:24 AM »
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I think Michael made a mistake when he discussed the mirror viewfinder too: "The last time I saw one of these on a medium format camera was on a Mamiya C330 TLR in the mid 1970s." The 6008 (which he used to own) uses a mirror-based viewfinder.

AFAIK the Hasselblad H`s 90 degree finder works also with mirrors instead of a prism. I thought that was the reason why the finder of the Hasselblad H is so much better than the finder of the Mamiya AFD ?

So it seems to me there were neither financial reasons nor concerns about the weight but simply the intention to make the best finder available?

Bernd
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2007, 08:34:15 AM »
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This is not correct. Firstly, the lenses and finders are completely interchangeable.

Secondly, a Hy6 camera, regardless of whether it has a Sinar, Leaf, or Rolleiflex name plate on it will take any back from any back marker that has an adaptor plate. If you read my article you will see a side view of the e-Motion 75 with its adaptor plate. The camera itself doesn't accept a back directly, it only accepts a plate and the plate then attaches to a standardized fitting on the camera. These plates work on any Hy6. That's the whole point of open systems.

Michael
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I too find this very confusing.  I had thought that these systems (Sinar, Leaf) were closed - at least for DB's.  Maybe Thierry can sort this out.  

Victor
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2007, 10:03:35 AM »
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Will the lenses that are newly released and those appearing shortly for the Hy6 work on the 6008?

If so, this is commendable.

-axel

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... the lenses and finders are completely interchangeable.
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