Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Hy6 Michael's review  (Read 42089 times)
samuel_js
Guest
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2007, 10:26:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
This is not correct. Firstly, the lenses and finders are completely interchangeable.

Secondly, a Hy6 camera, regardless of whether it has a Sinar, Leaf, or Rolleiflex name plate on it will take any back from any back marker that has an adaptor plate. If you read my article you will see a side view of the e-Motion 75 with its adaptor plate. The camera itself doesn't accept a back directly, it only accepts a plate and the plate then attaches to a standardized fitting on the camera. These plates work on any Hy6. That's the whole point of open systems.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156063\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael, we have been discussing this intensively the last weeks here. Do you mean i can put my phase one back on the Hy6 if an adapter is made? Or that Phase One can make their own back for the Hy6 if they want?  Is that what you're saying? Because if this is true (I don't think so...) a lot of misinformation has been posted in  this forum last year... I'd like to believe you...
Logged
michael
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4808



« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2007, 10:45:53 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Will the lenses that are newly released and those appearing shortly for the Hy6 work on the 6008?

If so, this is commendable.

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since the lens mount is said to be identical that should be the case, though you should check with F&H to be absolutely sure before making a purchase.

Michael
Logged
Mort54
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2007, 10:50:57 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Michael, we have been discussing this intensively the last weeks here. Do you mean i can put my phase one back on the Hy6 if an adapter is made? Or that Phase One can make their own back for the Hy6 if they want?
It seems clear from all the posts on this subject that the following is true:

1. Jenoptic owns the rights to the Hy6 design.

2. Phase One could legally develop their own adapter and put a Phase One back on the Hy6 IF they license the interface from Jenoptic.

3. Phase One has apparently decided, as far as we know, not to license the interface design from Jenoptic.

4. Phase One could reverse engineer the interface design and design an adapter without paying the interface licensing fee, but whether that would withstand a legal challenge is the question.

5. Since we don't have such a reverse engineered interface design from Phase, we can assume that they've concluded either that they couldn't withstand a legal challenge, or that they just don't think it's worth the effort from a business point of view.

At this point, putting a Phase One back on a Hy6 is more of a legal and/or business issue than a technical issue.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 10:52:49 AM by Mort54 » Logged

I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own
michael
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4808



« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 10:52:47 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Michael, we have been discussing this intensively the last weeks here. Do you mean i can put my phase one back on the Hy6 if an adapter is made? Or that Phase One can make their own back for the Hy6 if they want?  Is that what you're saying? Because if this is true (I don't think so...) a lot of misinformation has been posted in  this forum last year... I'd like to believe you...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is one of the problems with this industry, lot's of heat and little light. Maybe we need infrared gogglers to know what's really going on!

To my knowledge and experience the way the Hy6 system works is that a back is mated to an adaptor plate and then that plate attaches to the camera. A Leaf camera and a Sinar camera would seem to be essentially identical except for the name plate.

Sinar and Leaf have a contract with F&H to be the exclusive EOMs of the Hy6. But, F&H will be selling the Hy6 themselves with a Rolleiflex badge on it. This then begs the question, what do they expect people will put on it? Film backs? Maybe, but somehow I doubt that this is what they have in mind to maintain a solid marketing program.

As long as F&H make the interface specs available for the adaptor plate (and I don't know if they need to make the plate or if others will be able to) then in theory at least any digital back should be able to be mounted on any Hy6 camera if the right plate is available.

The issues here are not technical. The issues are ones of licensing and business relationships. Until someone (F&H or their partner Jenoptic, who own the rights to the camera) clarifies all of this it's just speculation. Remember though that Jenoptic owns Sinar.

Fun, huh?

Michael
Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3976



WWW
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 11:28:11 AM »
ReplyReply

Too much speculation by us and sidestepping by them.

I think the camera guys have been taking lessons from the politicos and have hired spin-managers in lieu of marketing personnel.

Edmund

Quote
This is one of the problems with this industry, lot's of heat and little light. Maybe we need infrared gogglers to know what's really going on!

The issues are ones of licensing and business relationships. Until someone (F&H or their partner Jenoptic, who own the rights to the camera) clarifies all of this it's just speculation.

Fun, huh?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
hcubell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 729


WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2007, 12:08:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sinar and Leaf have a contract with F&H to be the exclusive EOMs of the Hy6. But, F&H will be selling the Hy6 themselves with a Rolleiflex badge on it. This then begs the question, what do they expect people will put on it? Film backs? Maybe, but somehow I doubt that this is what they have in mind to maintain a solid marketing program.

The issues here are not technical. The issues are ones of licensing and business relationships. Until someone (F&H or their partner Jenoptic, who own the rights to the camera) clarifies all of this it's just speculation. Remember though that Jenoptic owns Sinar.

Fun, huh?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This HAS been clarified by Jenoptic/Sinar. It's just that no one wants to take its statements at face value and believe them. Jenoptic/Sinar has stated repeatedly that the all of the Hy6 cameras are intended to work with Sinar and Leaf backs. Period. None of the parties to the Hy6 project will offer adapter plates for Phase or Hasselblad backs. Thierry, who works for Sinar, has stated on the record that Phase could theoretically make its own adapter for mounting Phase backs on a Hy6. What he has NOT addressed is (1)what kind of functionality would a Phase back have with a Hy6 camera if Jenoptic did not officially support it and permit the Phase back to interface with the Hy6 camera's firmware(i.e., would it be like attaching a Phase back to a view camera with a sync cable) and (2) what Jenoptic's legal response would be if Phase somehow tried to have its backs interface with the the firmware of the Hy6 cameras so as to achieve the same level of functionality as Sinar and Leaf backs. These are interesting questions to speculate about, but at the end of the day don't really seem to matter. Who is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a camera system and MFDB where the back is not "supported" by the camera maker(and the camera maker is downright opposed to the back being used on the camera)?
Logged

Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2364


« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2007, 12:09:33 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
This is one of the problems with this industry, lot's of heat and little light. Maybe we need infrared gogglers to know what's really going on!

To my knowledge and experience the way the Hy6 system works is that a back is mated to an adaptor plate and then that plate attaches to the camera. A Leaf camera and a Sinar camera would seem to be essentially identical except for the name plate.

Sinar and Leaf have a contract with F&H to be the exclusive EOMs of the Hy6. But, F&H will be selling the Hy6 themselves with a Rolleiflex badge on it. This then begs the question, what do they expect people will put on it? Film backs? Maybe, but somehow I doubt that this is what they have in mind to maintain a solid marketing program.

As long as F&H make the interface specs available for the adaptor plate (and I don't know if they need to make the plate or if others will be able to) then in theory at least any digital back should be able to be mounted on any Hy6 camera if the right plate is available.

The issues here are not technical. The issues are ones of licensing and business relationships. Until someone (F&H or their partner Jenoptic, who own the rights to the camera) clarifies all of this it's just speculation. Remember though that Jenoptic owns Sinar.

Fun, huh?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmmmm... I always liked the idea of a back that could be used on any camera by means of an adapterplate.

I also like the idea of a camera that can be adapted to be used with any back by means of an adapterplate.
Logged
pixjohn
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 671


« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2007, 01:02:10 PM »
ReplyReply

It would be nice to just put my H back on the Leaf AFi.
Logged
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2364


« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2007, 01:09:05 PM »
ReplyReply

Maybe a nice F&H accessory, a H plate, should help boost sales of their bodies sold as Rolleiflex.  
Logged
vjbelle
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2007, 04:11:35 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
(i.e., would it be like attaching a Phase back to a view camera with a sync cable)
In reality, that's the only functionality the Sinar back has with the HY body.  Shutter speed and aperture are not recorded.  This is just like putting my P45 on my Alpa.....

Victor
Logged
rethmeier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 779


WWW
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »
ReplyReply

"Shutter speed and aperture are not recorded"
I wonder if that's done on purpose or wether it's a design mistake.
However how important is it to that info?
You don't get that info when you mount any DB on an Alpa,Cambo etc.
Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
Ed Jack
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 05:04:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Just FYI, Thierry and his colleagues at Sinar were shown the review several days ago so that they could correct any factual errors or inaccuracies prior to publication. This they have done.

As for (why are all the pictures "exposure unknown") that was explained in the article. The camera does not transmit to the back the aperture and shutter speed so it can be recorded in the EXIF data fields, and therefore there is no way to tell what it is after the fact.

This is obviously a serious problem which needs to be addressed by Sinar ASAP.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 Yes, the omission of exp data in the communication betwixt back and camera is regrettable (understatement), yet you would think that this is something which can be addressed in the firmware ? I suppose this may not be trivial, otherwise why hasn't it been implemented from the get-go ?!!!
The fact it isn't there already might suggest a more fundamental problem, such as the physical pins or something not being able to transmit this sort of data, who knows ?> I mean the 6008AF transmitted exposure data to both film back and the Phase One P20 does it not, so there is a pathway to follow in this ?!

As for claims that Michael's report was loaded either for or against non-Hassie products.. well these are just the sort of comment that will drive him away from contributing in his own forums. if he thinks he is addressing a load of numbskulls ;-)
I for one sold my H1 a few months back, but would consider the Rollei film back version of the Hy 6 as a replacement which is "relatively future proof" and can take all future backs (apart from the Hassie back of course)... is that the case...can the Rollei Hy6 use both Leaf and Sinar backs etc, or do you have to buy the Hy6 in the Sinar configuration to get a Sinar back working for example. If so then even this system is not as "open" as we thought ?! I am in no rush to replace my MF kit, so may see what the new Mamiya One has to offer next year before parting with cash!

The new sinarbacks: Sinarback 54 MC digital back (small and presumably good value) and the multi-shot ("real colour") Sinarback eVolution 75H have been out for a bit now. The later in particular is genuinely a unique product - being I believe the first implementation of the 33MP sensor in Multishot. Yes they are tethered, but with the fast Mac computers with their great batteries, I wonder whether these can be used one theh move to some extent better than say the H25 could have been (power hungry tethered). Anyone know how quickly this back drains the high capacity battery of a New Mac Book Pro as it is I assuem "on all the time"? Sinarís Thierry.. why not make an "image bank" style of accessory for this back like Hasselbladís still does with its backs, which is a self-contained battery and storage running a basic operating system in a small self contained box ?

Any comments ?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 05:07:12 PM by Ed Jack » Logged
melgross
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2007, 05:05:05 PM »
ReplyReply

While I can't respond to what is required, legally, in other countries, here in the US, Jenoptic can do nothing about third parties reverse engineering their equipment to work with these cameras.

That is specifically allowed. Even the DMCA allows this for the purpose of integrating one product with another. The DMCA  only applies to DRM'd products, which is not even the case here.

If Phase 1 is serious about moving their backs to this camera system (assuming it does sell in large enough numbers, and enough purchasers are unhappy with the supplied backs), there are no legal problems here for them to be concerned about. This goes for mechanical, as well as electronic, and software, integration.

As an aside, My thoughts as to the shortcomings of this camera relates to the fact that it is an entirely new system. One year is a very short time to go from concept to working product with systems at this level of complexity. I would suspect that a generation II product, perhaps in another year, or less, will solve most of the problems seen here today.  From my own experience as a designer, and manufacturer, I can see that this product is not "finished".
Logged
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2007, 05:08:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Michael is absolutely right, and I have never said anything different. What I have said, is that Sinar will not provide adapters for other back manufacturers. And what I have said as well is that PO (and Hasselblad) are not part of this project and as such do not have access to the protocols.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I too find this very confusing.† I had thought that these systems (Sinar, Leaf) were closed - at least for DB's.† Maybe Thierry can sort this out.  

Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:55:13 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2007, 05:17:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks hcubell, for sparing me some time.

YES, it has been stated, it has been explained and it has been clarified officially by Jenoptik and the corresponding press release.

So once again, WE (Jenoptik/Sinar) do not provide any adaption for other backs. Leaf backs supported by Leaf on their AFi DO work on a Sinar Hy6, but Leaf provides/manufactures the adapter.

To your point 1): yes, it WOULD (with emphasis on "would") probably be a functionality with a cable and no communication.
To your point 2): I honestly don't know and am not interested in it, at this stage.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
This HAS been clarified by Jenoptic/Sinar. It's just that no one wants to take its statements at face value and believe them. Jenoptic/Sinar has stated repeatedly that the all of the Hy6 cameras are intended to work with Sinar and Leaf backs. Period. None of the parties to the Hy6 project will offer adapter plates for Phase or Hasselblad backs. Thierry, who works for Sinar, has stated on the record that Phase could theoretically make its own adapter for mounting Phase backs on a Hy6. What he has NOT addressed is (1)what kind of functionality would a Phase back have with a Hy6 camera if Jenoptic did not officially support it and permit the Phase back to interface with the Hy6 camera's firmware(i.e., would it be like attaching a Phase back to a view camera with a sync cable) and (2) what Jenoptic's legal response would be if Phase somehow tried to have its backs interface with the the firmware of the Hy6 cameras so as to achieve the same level of functionality as Sinar and Leaf backs. These are interesting questions to speculate about, but at the end of the day don't really seem to matter. Who is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a camera system and MFDB where the back is not "supported" by the camera maker(and the camera maker is downright opposed to the back being used on the camera)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:55:58 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
vjbelle
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2007, 05:18:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
You don't get that info when you mount any DB on an Alpa,Cambo etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree.... However I really like to see that kind of information.  This type of information allows me to actually 'see' how an aperture influences dof.  When I shoot my Alpa the only way to document this is in writing the data for that particular image.  I expect lots more from any back connected to an HY.    

Victor
Logged
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2007, 05:22:51 PM »
ReplyReply

that is not true, and I shall come back on this later and when I have detailed information. Michael's findings in his review concerning the communication camera/back are not complete, partly due to a misunderstanding.

I shall clarify this at the soonest.

best regards,
Thierry

Quote
In reality, that's the only functionality the Sinar back has with the HY body.  Shutter speed and aperture are not recorded.  This is just like putting my P45 on my Alpa.....

Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
vjbelle
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2007, 05:26:19 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Michael is absolutely right, and I have never said anything different. What I have said, is that Sinar will not provide adapters for other back manufacturers.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you for 'clarifying' this issue....

Victor
Logged
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2007, 05:36:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Dear Ed,

please read my remarks and answers below your questions.

Quote
Yes, the omission of exp data in the communication betwixt back and camera is regrettable (understatement), yet you would think that this is something which can be addressed in the firmware ? I suppose this may not be trivial, otherwise why hasn't it been implemented from the get-go ?!!!
The fact it isn't there already might suggest a more fundamental problem, such as the physical pins or something not being able to transmit this sort of data, who knows ?> I mean the 6008AF transmitted exposure data to both film back and the Phase One P20 does it not, so there is a pathway to follow in this ?!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As said: there is communication camera/back/software and EXIF date being recorded/available. Let me some time to come back on it.

Quote
As for claims that Michael's report was loaded either for or against non-Hassie products.. well these are just the sort of comment that will drive him away from contributing in his own forums. if he thinks he is addressing a load of numbskulls ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do not find Michael's review to be anti-Hasselblad, nor anti-x or y. I do in fact appreciate his fairness in this Hy6 review, his professionalism in his approach and his feedback to Sinar to let us time to correct some mistakes: this has to be put on his credit.

Quote
I for one sold my H1 a few months back, but would consider the Rollei film back version of the Hy 6 as a replacement which is "relatively future proof" and can take all future backs (apart from the Hassie back of course)... is that the case...can the Rollei Hy6 use both Leaf and Sinar backs etc, or do you have to buy the Hy6 in the Sinar configuration to get a Sinar back working for example. If so then even this system is not as "open" as we thought ?! I am in no rush to replace my MF kit, so may see what the new Mamiya One has to offer next year before parting with cash!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

YES, any SB can be mounted on the HY6 AND Leaf AFi, with the corresponding adapter plate, and vice-versa, any back supported by Leaf to be mounted on an AFi can also be mounted on a Sinar Hy6. This has been communicated also many times.

Quote
The new sinarbacks: Sinarback 54 MC digital back (small and presumably good value) and the multi-shot ("real colour") Sinarback eVolution 75H have been out for a bit now. The later in particular is genuinely a unique product - being I believe the first implementation of the 33MP sensor in Multishot. Yes they are tethered, but with the fast Mac computers with their great batteries, I wonder whether these can be used one theh move to some extent better than say the H25 could have been (power hungry tethered). Anyone know how quickly this back drains the high capacity battery of a New Mac Book Pro as it is I assuem "on all the time"? Sinarís Thierry.. why not make an "image bank" style of accessory for this back like Hasselbladís still does with its backs, which is a self-contained battery and storage running a basic operating system in a small self contained box ?

Any comments ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I shall forward your suggestion about "image bank". Thanks!


Best regards,
Thierry
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
rethmeier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 779


WWW
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2007, 05:39:10 PM »
ReplyReply

deleted
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 05:43:06 PM by rethmeier » Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad