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Author Topic: Hy6 Michael's review  (Read 42466 times)
samuel_js
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« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2007, 07:33:09 AM »
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At the risk of covering old territory...

Did Contax publish the specifications of their back mount to help the MFDB manufacturers make backs, or did the back manufacturers work it out for themselves? If the latter, then in what way could you call the Contax (or Mamiya) an open system and the Hy6 a closed one?

Regardless, this project does not depend on the fortunes of one company. You can select between Zeiss and Schneider glass, between Sinar and Leaf backs, and three companies sell the camera body and accessories through their respective networks. This gives you a lot of choice, which is what we all want.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156391\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It isn't a lot of choice for me as I am (and want to be) phase one back user.
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thsinar
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« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2007, 07:35:32 AM »
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Poor of me! Do you really wish to return to and bring up again this old story?

It seems that it has been debated and explained more than enough.

BTW: another option/choice ---> 4.5x6 AND 6x6 film

Best regards,
Thierry

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It isn't a lot of choice for me as I am (and want to be) phase one back user.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2007, 07:56:44 AM »
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And Canon does not sell Hoya filters, therefore they won't work on Canon cameras. Right!

Michael
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I don't understand what Hoya filters and Canon cameras have to do with whether or not the HY is an open platform.  If protocols and mounting plate specifications are made available to other DB manufacturers then I would consider that an open platform.  If not, then I would consider it a closed platform.

Victor
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vjbelle
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« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2007, 08:03:47 AM »
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At the risk of covering old territory...

Did Contax publish the specifications of their back mount to help the MFDB manufacturers make backs, or did the back manufacturers work it out for themselves?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156391\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I really don't know, but I would think that Contax would have provided the DB manufacturers with their specifications.  Those were the days when camera makers wanted to sell cameras, and the best way to do that would be to make it as compatible as possible with DB manfacturers.

Victor
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thsinar
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« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2007, 08:05:02 AM »
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Victor,

Without offense, I think we should let it be like it is: for some it is an open platform (and the reasons have been explained many times), and for some it is a closed one (with the reasons being given as well).

There are too many very sensitive on this issue now.

 

Best regards,
Thierry

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I don't understand what Hoya filters and Canon cameras have to do with whether or not the HY is an open platform.  If protocols and mounting plate specifications are made available to other DB manufacturers then I would consider that an open platform.  If not, then I would consider it a closed platform.

Victor
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2007, 08:27:53 AM »
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Victor,

Without offense, I think we should let it be like it is: for some it is an open platform (and the reasons have been explained many times), and for some it is a closed one (with the reasons being given as well).

There are too many very sensitive on this issue now.

 

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156403\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No offense, Thierry.  I have only the best wishes for the Hy camera.  

Victor
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michael
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« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2007, 08:38:46 AM »
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I don't understand what Hoya filters and Canon cameras have to do with whether or not the HY is an open platform.  If protocols and mounting plate specifications are made available to other DB manufacturers then I would consider that an open platform.  If not, then I would consider it a closed platform.

Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why don't you wait a little while to see how things turn out? It is an open platform and various company's backs will work on various company's Hy6 bodies. This includes backs other than the ones that currently are available.

If you don't wish to believe this, in the face of all evidence, fine. Just don't make categorical statements on this forum about things that you don't know for a certainty.

Michael
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patrickfransdesmet
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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »
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Sinar eMotion75 is the best !

Dear readers, I am a professional photographer and ICT consultant, I 've worked many years for SONY and witnessed the birth of the first digital camera's.
Ever since then I stay tuned and follow all revolutions in this area from very close.

The last years I 've used several digital medium format backs, and currently own a P20 myself.

Last summer I had the opportunity to test an eMotion75 from my sinar dealer in belgium (Hotz).
It is an amazing piece of equipment ! And to my oppinion, gives the best results. I evaluate digital backs by the prints I get from of it, mostly printed on EPSON or Durst Lambda.

The e75 stands above any other MFDB at this moment, not for its ergonomy or flashy screens and menu's, but by image quality !

The whiteballance is very accurate, and although I shoot a grey card first, this was not realy needed with the e75. The whiteballance presets are very accurate.

The sinar software is a piece of "crap".
It crashes and gives poor results from your RAW files. and NOISE above 100 ISO !!!

However, I was very surprised using Brumbear, as this software is very easy to use and converts your RAW's into DNG.
In Photoshop, you can import them with the Adobe Raw Converter.
These files are amazing.
I even managed to make a file equivalent to 800 ISO.
Included I hereby post a file in jpg, created from an e75 RAW file.
It was made with a Hasselblad 503CW and 120 f4,0 CFE, wide open and handheld, shot at 400 ISO then pushed +1 in photoshop raw converter.
NO NOISE (that was not the case with the sinar software) and the highlight recovery, revealed a perfecty acceptable image out the white areas. The details are amazing.
Other PLUS was, skin colours are much more accurate with e75 compared with P20.
Especially for lips. In PhaseOne they look magenta, and one cannot correct this.
My PhaseOne dealer did not respond to this. Many other users correct lips colour by a separate layer in PS. . .
NOT needed with the e75, colours are like a transparency from KODAK E100. DEAD ON !

I probably buy one, as soon they are available. I can order one, but delivery times are not clear.
Then there is the pricetag also ...
With interchangeble adapters, it can be mounted on a Hy6 also.
Hy6 is another piece of art.
For me, a longtime Hasselblad user, this camera is closer to the V series than the current Hasselblad H series (which I do not like !)

One thing all MFDB 's have is a different look and feel in the files after print.
A different perception of depth in the image.
For Black and White, If the client allows me to ($ )I 'll [attachment=4051:attachment]stick to Film and baryta paper in my darkroom, NO MATCH !
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pixjohn
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« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2007, 01:25:24 PM »
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I tested the Afi 7, the Shutter speed, Aperture and ISO appear in the file when viewed in lightroom and V11. The one item that does not appear is the lens?

Quote
"Shutter speed and aperture are not recorded"
I wonder if that's done on purpose or wether it's a design mistake.
However how important is it to that info?
You don't get that info when you mount any DB on an Alpa,Cambo etc.
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John Camp
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« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2007, 03:56:08 PM »
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I also have to ask, if the exposure data is there, and Sinar has had over a year to refine the communication protocols between its camera and backs, why the display of this data on the back's screen hasn't been accomplished in all of this time? It would seem to be such a simple thing to do, assuming that the information is being passed between them, as you say it is. As someone that used to run a software development team, I would have to guess that this shouldn't be more than a few hours work, assuming of course that the data is there in the first place.

It's not my intention to make this issue a cause celebre but it is such an obvious omission that I have to wonder out loud how this was allowed to happen.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156329\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Almost every single digital system of the past few years has had some weird fault that winds up being discovered by photographers (and very quickly after release), that cause those photographers to wonder what the heck could have happened, because the fault seems so glaringly obvious. (All the Leica M8 faults, the Canon Mark III, etc.)

I think that the answer lies in the fact that most of these things are being developed by very different groups of engineers -- the glass and machine-tool guys in one area, electronics hardware people in another, and software teams -- and none of these people are required to be working photographers (most wouldn't even have the time.) And, since the camera doesn't work at all until all of the bits are done, there tends to be quite a short testing period of a full production-version camera. The result is, weird stuff like this. Sometimes, I think some bits are simply forgotten, or was third item on a list and there was only time to do two.

You're probably quite right, transferring the data via a firmware update shouldn't be a big deal, and probably isn't...but for some reason, these things just don't seem to get done. Leica people are still waiting for important firmware updates, even fairly simply things, months after they were expected...Canon took forever (in the eyes of users) to even admit that the Mark III had a focus problem.

As to Thiery's promise of a quick update on this...I'm sure he's sincere, but as a Leica user, I take it with a grain of salt. Last year, we ran into a crush of critical problems on the M8, which HAD top be fixed, and the future of the company seemed in doubt. But then came the European Christmas vacation, which essentially shuts down the month of December. Nothing got done. If something is promised right after the New Year, then it best be completed by the end of November, because if it isn't, well, work will resume in 30 days... 8-)

JC
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 03:57:06 PM by John Camp » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2007, 04:00:38 PM »
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Almost every single digital system of the past few years has had some weird fault that winds up being discovered by photographers (and very quickly after release), that cause those photographers to wonder what the heck could have happened, because the fault seems so glaringly obvious. (All the Leica M8 faults, the Canon Mark III, etc.)

Didn't someone (Thierry?) already explain that EXIF data will only work with the upcoming Exposure software, and not in Capture Shop? I believe Michael never tried Exposure, (probably because it is still in beta testing stage).
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« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2007, 05:08:21 PM »
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"Shutter speed and aperture are not recorded"

However how important is it to that info?

You don't get that info when you mount any DB on an Alpa,Cambo etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IMO that info is not currently important

but when software does calculations on correcting lens aberatations (for instance) the aperture and focus distance (and shift amount  ) will become very important

(is this not DAC by blad)

There could even be a software that worked with the shutter speed info and cancelled out movement in the same way that CA is bashed in software !

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2007, 05:17:25 PM »
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Almost every single digital system of the past few years has had some weird fault that winds up being discovered by photographers (and very quickly after release), that cause those photographers to wonder what the heck could have happened, because the fault seems so glaringly obvious. (All the Leica M8 faults, the Canon Mark III, etc.)

JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In a way it's reassuring that Sinar are launching with the E75 back which is a known quantity and has interchangeable mounts. If the camera has a really weird fault, photographers can always mount the back on their old MF system and keep going - Leaf buyers won't be so fortunate

Edmund
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thsinar
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« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2007, 01:05:35 AM »
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Right Graham: thanks!

Thierry

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Didn't someone (Thierry?) already explain that EXIF data will only work with the upcoming Exposure software, and not in Capture Shop? I believe Michael never tried Exposure, (probably because it is still in beta testing stage).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156510\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2007, 03:35:15 AM »
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Hello everybody,
as a long time reader, I thought know it might be about time to post something on these forums.

Yesterday there was a Sinar presentation of the Hy6 here in munich which I attended to see this hyped camera. I was able to hold it, play around a little and press the shutter release, while it was not possible to take away raws.
Attached to the body was a sinar back emotion 75 with the mamiya rz style rotating adaptor, a wlf and the AF 80 2.8.

The camer felt very good in my hands, i was surprised about the weight, very light. (but there was no prism attached, not even on at all to look at, or mirror viewfinder, whatever it will be...).
The handgrip is absolutley nice, the viewfinder very bright with an oldschool nikon F4 style display in it. AF worked very good, also the little red focus helping light came in handy in that dim studio. I couldn't really test it, but my feeling was at least, maybe better then Hasselblads AF.

The rotating adaptor is what I really dig on this camera ( i shot rz for quite a while), although one thing about it is strange. It doesn't really lock in its current position, which means you don't need to push a button or anything to rotate the back, there is just a little drag (?right word?) to overcome and I picture myself constantly turning the back accidentially by mistake by some degrees, causing the camera not to fire. But its a great feature, shooting portrait wihout turning the cam.

Mirrorslap seems to be a lot less then on the H really.

The back, I can't say anything about the quality of the files. There was a photographer doing a demo shoot with the emotion 75 attached to a macpro 2x2,66 running capture shop and the whole show hung up after 4 frames...
But the display on that back is so bad, I think even worse then the old non plus phase displays, a joke.

And some rumors for you as well: the local phase one dealer said that their backs will be availlable for the hy6. as for when and how, with cable or without and all those things, there where no answers (of course, i think they just don't really know themselves). And the Sinar Guy at the show yesterday said, yes it is an open system (whatever that means...)

But anyway, time will tell, this is a great camera already, although without a phase back it is only worth half of it.

cheers,
martin



ps: something about me, as this is my first post here: I am a fashion photographer, shooting H2 with phase P45+ and P30+, sometimes Canon 1ds MKII. I don't really like my cameras, thinking about switching back to V series Hasselblads, but I really like the Phase backs. Here in Germany Phase is definitley number one in the Pro market, you can rent them in every mayor city, which i think is absolutley necessary, and everyone i know is shooting the phase on a H2.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2007, 03:53:30 AM »
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Hi,
Sorry if I missed a comment about it but the tomatoe in the ISO comparision does change it's color during the transfer to higher ISOs, the red becomes much different in look when the ISOs creep up.

Is this something you did wrong in post, or with the camera ?
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yaya
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« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2007, 10:37:31 AM »
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I tested the Afi 7, the Shutter speed, Aperture and ISO appear in the file when viewed in lightroom and V11. The one item that does not appear is the lens?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The camera you handled was a pre-production unit. On the production AFi units that are now shipping the focal length is recorded along with every other EXIF and meta-data (aperture, speed, EV settings, AE mode, iso, copyright, description etc.) and can be viewed by LC11 and any software that supports the .mos file.

Yair
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yaya
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« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2007, 10:53:19 AM »
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Yair,

How is the camera's RGB-sensor implemented with the functioning of the Leaf back?

EPd
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Not yet (meaning there is no RGB reading being transferred as yet)

Yair
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yaya
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« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2007, 11:21:17 AM »
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Yair,
Is this a matter of firmware updating, or are the current backs simply not able to use the information from the RGB-sensor?

EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Like I said the data is not being transferred yet. I believe this will be sorted in the future via a firmware upgrade to the body and back.

Yair
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awofinden
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« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2007, 11:48:00 AM »
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Like I said the data is not being transferred yet. I believe this will be sorted in the future via a firmware upgrade to the body and back.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"I believe this will be sorted in the future via a firmware upgrade to the body and back."
Man, the number of times I've heard this and had to wait months if not years.
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