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Author Topic: Canon Mk3,P21 and ZD compared  (Read 24389 times)
Leonardo Barreto
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« on: December 02, 2007, 05:21:44 PM »
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http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=25835108

Interesting comparison test shoot by Ted_Pedersen at DPReview.com forum

The Mk3 seams to be reaching Digital Back territory in this demonstration...
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 05:37:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 12:57:17 PM by samuel_js » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2007, 05:45:37 PM »
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Man, the p21 is better in every aspect IMO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, the Canon is not bad, better detail than the ZD in this test, but the 18MP P21 clearly wins.
I assume the P21 would have better DR than the Canon too, but we can't tell without the RAW files.

Pity the test didn't include the more mainstream 22MP backs. The ZD is not the best benchmark.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 05:46:56 PM by foto-z » Logged

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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2007, 06:05:37 PM »
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What about a P45 ? will there ever be a Mk4 at that level? if not, then that is the place for MF, that and better lenses. I'm sure Canon will come up with fine tuned optics to match the resolution.

This probably means that selling $30k backs will be possible but more difficult in the near future. We probably should see an all-out race starting Q1-08 with HY6, the open P1Mamiya system, 645 AFD III (not much change there) and a 2nd Generation ZD back? -- What ever happened to the ZD body? what about a ZD body type camera made by Phase? nah, that is Mamiyas Newton, so they probably don't even want to talk about it even dough the concept was good but had bad backmanship....

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Yes, the Canon is not bad, better detail than the ZD in this test, but the 18MP P21 clearly wins.
I assume the P21 would have better DR than the Canon too, but we can't tell without the RAW files.

Pity the test didn't include the more mainstream 22MP backs. The ZD is not the best benchmark.
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amsp
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2007, 06:18:15 PM »
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I think the canon looks great and has its use, but the P21 still beats it, and it's only 18Mp. The P25 would beat it silly though. Even if they were comparable I wouldn't replace a P25 with a canon because of the horrible 35mm format, I much prefer 2/3. But like I said, they are different animals and shouldn't really be compared like this, I have a 1Ds & P25 combo myself and both have their uses.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 06:18:48 PM by amsp » Logged
bcroslin
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2007, 06:20:03 PM »
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Sorry, but this test doesn't mean jack sh*! without raw files.

All a test like this shows is how biased photographers are towards the product they own.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 06:21:32 PM by bcroslin » Logged

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jimgolden
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2007, 07:11:23 PM »
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What about a P45 ? will there ever be a Mk4 at that level?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

a 39MP FF35mm SLR? uh, thats one noisy SOB in my opinion...
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mcfoto
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2007, 07:14:03 PM »
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Hi
Looking at the shutter speeds the PHASE is 1/30, Canon 1/25 & ZD 1/15. For starters they should have all been the same & higher like 1/125 second. Also process the ZD file through camera raw or RD and you will get a better result. I will be getting my 1Ds MKIII in a few days & I will compare my ZD camera to it. In a test keep your variables down & shutter speed should be the same & high enough to discount any camera shake.
Denis
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2007, 07:22:14 PM »
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i agree w/ bcroslin on this one.

could present a significant challenge to unloading the remainder ZD SLR cameras tho...

I think LL MF forum users should get used to these kinds of posts tho, keep in mind the mk3
hasnt really gotten into most mass market hands yet.

and it is 22MP - it MUST be as good as a MFDB if it's the same MPs! - ha!
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jimgolden
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2007, 07:24:22 PM »
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"TYhanks, Ted...nice comparison....they all look about the same...so looks like the Canon is the one to get...just for convenience alone."

is this guy stoned?

I cant even get into this, my head ready to explode...haha

DPR kook filter on...
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eronald
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2007, 07:37:45 PM »
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Well, at the moment I am starting to think that my P45+ outresolves the 80mm Mamiya lens. This makes it likely that a Canon with a good lens would come near a DB with an average one.

Edmund

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"TYhanks, Ted...nice comparison....they all look about the same...so looks like the Canon is the one to get...just for convenience alone."

is this guy stoned?

I cant even get into this, my head ready to explode...haha

DPR kook filter on...
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Mort54
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2007, 08:00:02 PM »
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Well, at the moment I am starting to think that my P45+ outresolves the 80mm Mamiya lens. This makes it likely that a Canon with a good lens would come near a DB with an average one.
Hi Edmund. I think so too. And not just the 80, but also the 35 and 150, and for sure the 55-110. I don't own any of the other lenses so I can't speak for them. I also think the AFD shutter is letting the P45+ down - too much vibration, but probably to be expected from a big focal plane shutter. I've been ogling the Rodenstock HRs with their leaf shutters. I wish Phase/Mamiya would release the next round of info on their "new" leaf lenses.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 08:01:20 PM by Mort54 » Logged

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jimgolden
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2007, 10:07:47 PM »
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to Edmund - I guess I should clarify that comment, I think all the files look very different - I D/L'd them and looked them over, even @ 50% they look different - 100% it's very obvious...

now why I did this, I dont know, it was what I was expecting...
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2007, 11:02:37 PM »
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If you look at these files, full-size and smaller, you can see that the Phase (cropped sensor) is effectively closer to the subject. Therefore the test seems a bit loaded. Seems the tester should have either backed the Phase off a bit, or shot with a wider lens. So, of course the phase looks better when everything appears larger than in the other images...
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2007, 12:22:51 AM »
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Hi
To ad further the scene is dull, low contrast so you cannot tell what the DR is like.
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2007, 12:43:06 AM »
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I find a noticeable difference in color, color tonality and DR between the canon and the phase.  Just look at the tail lights of the cars, the yellows on the poles, and the reflections in the windows, the shadows under the cars and trucks.  The phase looks more 3D to me as well.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 12:50:08 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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Ray
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2007, 12:49:27 AM »
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Yes, the Canon is not bad, better detail than the ZD in this test, but the 18MP P21 clearly wins.
I assume the P21 would have better DR than the Canon too, but we can't tell without the RAW files.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No, the P21 does not clearly win. Do you guys have blinkers, or what?  

This test is flawed as usual. When comparing equipment which you know beforehand is going to have a very similar performance, it's essential to get the methodology correct, which means being very careful about small factors which can tip the balance one way or another.

With these tests, no care has been taken to get the FoVs the same in all 3 shots.

I've done my best to crop the 1Ds3 and ZD images to the same FoV as the P21. I've then divided the file size by 3 to get the relative pixel counts for the 3 cameras.

They are, 17.23mp for the P21, 17.46mp for the ZD and only 14.47mp for the 1Ds3.

We're not here comparing an 18mp P21 with a 21mp 1Ds3, but an 18mp P21 with a 14mp 1Ds3. Taking that into consideration it's quite likely the 1Ds3 has the edge.

There are also other issues of methodology which should be mentioned because they have some impact on results at this degree of pixel-peeping.

(1) If RAW images cannot be provided then at least let's have maximum quality jpegs. Here we have 60mb files compressed to around 3mb.

(2) When comparing formats with different aspect ratios, it's useful to make two comparisons, one with equal FoV in respect of height and one with equal FoV in respect of width. That at least provides one with some useful information. For example, if the subject matter lends itself to a 2:3 aspect ratio, I might want to know if I should pull out of my bag the 1Ds3 or just continue using the P21.

If, in these tests, the FoV of the image heights had been matched, giving an advantage to the P21 and a disadvantage to the 1Ds3, we'd be comparing a 17.8mp 1Ds3 image with a 17.23mp P21 image; close enough to avoid quibbling.

(3) Choosing f11 for both lenses in this test sort of equalises lens quality. Photodo never tested lenses at f11 because they considered all lenses to be equally bad at that aperture. The fact that such a relatively small sensor that the cropped 1Ds3 image represents, can so closely match the quality of the P21 sensor which is about 3x the area (of the cropped 1Ds3 image), using a lens of very similar quality, seems quite remarkable to me.

Essentially, the smaller sensor with equal pixel count can only deliver resolution and detail equal to the larger sensor if it employs sharper lenses. We don't have MTF charts at f11 for the lenses used in this test, but it is possible the Canon 50/1.4 is marginally sharper at f11 than the Mamiya 80/2.8.

(4) A major problem in equalising lens quality in this way results from inequality of DoF. At f11, the 1Ds3 image must have greater DoF, yet in these tests, the most significant difference in resolution and detail between the 1Ds3 and the MF images is in the foreground where the 1Ds3 is clearly fuzzier than both the ZD and P21.

How can this be? Clearly focussing is not the same for all three cameras. The 1Ds3 shot must have been focussed at a more distant point. Yet another flaw in these tests.
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2007, 12:55:30 AM »
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No, the P21 does not clearly win. Do you guys have blinkers, or what?   

This test is flawed as usual.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray you are right about the test not being rigid, but on the other hand its what we have so far.  I think a lot of your arguments about pixels and angle of view are valid in terms of assessing image sharpness and detail, but this is not going to change my view on color, tonality and DR.  

I definitely do not have my 'blinders' on because I'd honestly love it if a fast AF camera with high ISO performance could rival my MF camera. I'd sell it and buy the canon for sure. It will be a lot easier to use.
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2007, 01:08:29 AM »
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The phase looks more 3D to me as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
oh no, here we go again...
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Ray
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2007, 01:14:27 AM »
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Ray you are right about the test not being rigid, but on the other hand its what we have so far. I think a lot of your arguments about pixels and angle of view are valid in terms of assessing image sharpness and detail, but this is not going to change my view on color, tonality and DR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric,
I agree it's what we have so far and based on these 3 highly compressed jpegs, I'd say it's a tie with the ZD having a slightly softer appearance perhaps due to differences in the RAW converter used.

As regards color and tonality, we've got a very sophisticated program called Photoshop for handling that.  

If the point you are making is that MFDBs produce a more satisfying result regarding color and tonality, out of the box so to speak, then that's a valid point. Why spend hours calibrating your camera and making fine adjustments in Photoshop if you can get the result you want more directly. But I don't think one can make such assessments based on these jpegs.

I take it as a given that the larger sensor will always deliver better DR at base ISO and that this greater DR will translate to better tonality in the lower mid-tones and shadows. However, in practice I think we can discount this because you MF guys rarely expose fully to the right, is that not so?  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 02:45:42 AM by Ray » Logged
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