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Author Topic: Canon Mk3,P21 and ZD compared  (Read 24403 times)
Ray
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« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2007, 08:24:26 AM »
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That was really nice of you Thierry. Again, I think that we have done all we can do for this guy -- and I don't even have a DMF camera (well, not yet anyway). I would rather the nice people on this forum spend their time on more interesting and exciting issues.

Sean
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Again, I think that we have done all we can do for this guy --

Yes you have. You've made me feel quite competent. Thanks guys!   .

By the way, Thiery hasn't sent me an invitation to his BKK place. I don't even know the address so I couldn't gate-crash if I wanted to.

In any case, the test is not relevant to the topic of this thread which is not about comparing the latest DBs, but the latest FF 35mm DSLR with DBs of similar pixel count.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 08:30:30 AM by Ray » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2007, 10:25:59 AM »
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Ray, if this thread is at all representative of your over 4,400 posts on this forum, then I can conclude that you have not provided any useful information to any person here.

This thread is exactly why we have lost some very talented and knowledgeable photographers, namely James Russell and Mark Tucker, from the forum. I am seeing less participation from very talented photographers like Andre Napier and Rainer and many more. I love seeing Graham using a Rollei with a digital back since few in the world seem to and I shot with Rollei years back and loved the camera system. I never would be exposed to such great photography from Andre and others if not participating here. The forum helps to bridge the world gap as well. Being in the US, I may not see their work in my day to day experience.

I am thankful that we get participation from digital back maufacturers and dealers on their own free will. They answer questions and keep our interests high in the gear we use or want to use. I don't want to lose their particitpation because the forum's quality declines.

Photography is art and craft, not test charts, endless and unsuccessful discussions that one camera/lens/software is better than another. People here are intelligent enough to make their own decisions that benefit their art, craft and business.

The fact that you feel you are “our saviour” in having tests done correctly means nothing. If you want to do tests correctly, get out of your hotel room and seek out the sources and needed tools to do so and stop saying that others need to do it for you. Or that we need to prove you wrong. You have yet to prove you are right. You mimic a typical patriarchal attitude that it’s your way and anybody else has to prove you wrong, yet you don’t prove you’re right.

You provide no access to who you are, what you do or did. You present no credibility, only an insane amount of time to waste to talk about nothing on this forum and possibly many more. You have spent five years here being anonymous except for your first name. That has no use to anyone. The fact that I can lookup someone’s website, see their work, see their clients, gives me more understanding than anything you can ever provide in your “tests” or lack of.

This MFDB forum has been a wonderful place to help other photographers with real world solutions and get the same help in return. That’s what it should be. Most of us are shooting for clients. We only have one chance to get it right on set. Software, camera/back combinations and more are all factors of what can go wrong or be wrong purchases for one’s own photography business. Clients don’t care that we we didn’t buy some camera because it’s more megapixels or better AA filter. They don’t give a shit. They want a talented person to make a photo shoot successful in every aspect.

I am not harping on anyone as a hobbyist or enthusiast, but keep in mind they have very little riding on photography, since it is for pleasure. When our photography is a business with real clients, real money, real creativity that will be put out in the world for many to see and companies to rely on for bettering their own businesses, what we don’t need on this forum is utterly useless drivel.

This may make you cringe but I heard from a fellow ASMP chapter member that Gary Fong shoots 3MP jpegs for the weddings he does. He’s one of the most successful wedding photographers or certainly it looks that way. He has found that practicality dictates higher res images are just unnecessary for his clients and the reproduction sizes they purchase for prints. That goes to show that people will use a piece of gear to their own unique needs not to some standard that relates to resolution charts, or this camera is better than that banter.

Have you really seen the work of some great currently working photographers. There is amazing work that is independent of resolution or what camera they use. Many still use film of all types. Were you endlessly testing film back in the day or complaining that people weren’t properly testing film?

I am a firm believer that balance is the best choice in life. Technical must be balanced with art and craft. There will always be exceptions to that. What I find to be the least helpful in photography is the far side of technical only. That is not photography; that is scientifically related.

To give you insight, I was an organic chemist for several years. Hated it, even though that was my college degree. I can’t stand darkroom work. Never liked it. The technical of digital comes easy to me and I have taught people and am usually the one many come to locally to ask questions. But when it comes to my work now, I want my photography to be an art, commercial art and craft. I am completely self taught along with great information from appreciated fellow photographers.

I feel most talented photographers here and beyond cyberspace seek the same.

I am done with this thread and look forward to threads where I can get useful info from fellow photographers and hope to provide something back. I hope this thread is closed so it doesn’t waste other people’s time and energy with no usefulness.
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John,
Most of what you've written above is a completely valid point of view. There are many people on this forum, and others not on this forum, who find these endless debates about technical matters; which camera has less noise; which lens is sharper; does 14 bit A/D conversion make a real world difference in Canon's latest models; do DB images really have a 3-dimensional effect that distinguishes them from 35mm etc etc, very, very tedious.

It might be because they have difficulty understanding the maths and physics or that they are simply not interested. Perhaps such discussions make their head hurt. I can only speculate as to the reason.

You are entitled to think I'm spouting drivel. I'm entitled to think I've provided sound guidelines on methodology in comparing cameras of different formats.

My philosophy on such matters is, my views are sufficiently right until proven (or demonstrated) as being wrong or inadequate. No-one has done this yet in this thread.
 
I'm not persuaded by verbal abuse, belittlement and disparagement. My definition of drivel is 'that which is incomprehensible'. I'm sorry you haven't understood what I've been saying.

As for talented people leaving the forum, the only good reasons I can think of is that they have either been the subject of verbal abuse and their pride is hurt, or they don't find the forum interesting.

I'm not in the habit of verbally abusing people and it seems a quite extraordinary request on your part to suggest that I should stop writing what interests me because some talented photographer might not find what I write interesting and leave the forum.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2007, 11:04:04 AM »
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erased for beeing tired.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 11:10:27 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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jing q
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« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2007, 11:33:42 AM »
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John,
Most of what you've written above is a completely valid point of view. There are many people on this forum, and others not on this forum, who find these endless debates about technical matters; which camera has less noise; which lens is sharper; does 14 bit A/D conversion make a real world difference in Canon's latest models; do DB images really have a 3-dimensional effect that distinguishes them from 35mm etc etc, very, very tedious.

It might be because they have difficulty understanding the maths and physics or that they are simply not interested. Perhaps such discussions make their head hurt. I can only speculate as to the reason.

You are entitled to think I'm spouting drivel. I'm entitled to think I've provided sound guidelines on methodology in comparing cameras of different formats.

My philosophy on such matters is, my views are sufficiently right until proven (or demonstrated) as being wrong or inadequate. No-one has done this yet in this thread.
 
I'm not persuaded by verbal abuse, belittlement and disparagement. My definition of drivel is 'that which is incomprehensible'. I'm sorry you haven't understood what I've been saying.

As for talented people leaving the forum, the only good reasons I can think of is that they have either been the subject of verbal abuse and their pride is hurt, or they don't find the forum interesting.

I'm not in the habit of verbally abusing people and it seems a quite extraordinary request on your part to suggest that I should stop writing what interests me because some talented photographer might not find what I write interesting and leave the forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158699\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

talented people who used to contribute important information based on their practical information such as James Russel (who was abit long winded but importantly wrote based on their experience with their cameras and work!) are leaving because they have to sift through a whole load of garbage questioning by people who obviously feel like they need to prove some sort of technical point.

We didn't ask that you come here to "save" us with your technical knowledge that isn't grounded in practical usage. I'm amazed you have the gonads to post so much in a MEDIUM FORMAT subforum without ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with it.

You need to be aware of the people who make up this subforum are NOT the same kind of people from dpreview, which is what made this subforum such a bloody useful read. made up of alot of professionals (take a look at rainer's work,enough said). One single post of his has much more credibility than a whole bunch of yours. What are YOUR credentials to back up your posts???

It's not about hurt egos, it's just a bloody pain when people who actually have experience with the products they talk about and actual work experience get drowned out and forcefully questioned by some guys who want to act like camera technicians.

If you really want to act that way I suggest you join a DB company as a product tester and spokesman.

you say "I'm entitled to think I've provided sound guidelines on methodology in comparing cameras of different formats."
Then why don't you go DO IT and TEST the cameras instead of TALKING about it on a forum.
Don't give that bull response about how you can't get the camera in chiangmai and whatnots...australia especially!I know enough australian studios that use DBs!
If it will shut you up I'll be willing to let you test my back for an hour in Singapore next month.

do it, prove your point, and stop clogging our forums with your insistent questioning. Be proactive for once since it seems to bother you enough to post 4,400 times.
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thsinar
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« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2007, 11:48:00 AM »
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ALL are invited, from all origins and with all back brands, or even without MFDB, as long as he (she) is a photographer and we could share about it!

If I am at home from my business trips, anybody is welcome to ask my address by PM and have a drink together.

Thierry

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By the way, Thiery hasn't sent me an invitation to his BKK place. I don't even know the address so I couldn't gate-crash if I wanted to.

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Thierry Hagenauer
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david o
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« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2007, 11:50:20 AM »
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ALL are invited, from all origins and with all back brands, or even without MFDB, as long as he (she) is a photographer and we could share about it!

If I am at home from my business trips, anybody is welcome to ask my address by PM and have a drink together.

Thierry
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put lot of ice to cool everybody down....
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thsinar
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« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2007, 11:56:35 AM »
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always available, and around the corner if more needed!

 

Thierry

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put lot of ice to cool everybody down....
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Thierry Hagenauer
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stefan marquardt
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« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2007, 03:28:38 PM »
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stefan marquardt
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Christopher
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« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2007, 06:38:24 PM »
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I find it funny how people can talk so much crap, but on the other hand nothing new.

@Ray I think you have a very good point. This whole test is absolutly sensless. I mean do you people feel great about your 18MP DMF system is better than a 14MP DSLR crop ? I mean that is just sad.

Certainly a test is not only about numbers, but numbers are important.

Get a life and stopp defending a review which just is not correctly made....
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samuel_js
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« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2007, 06:43:53 PM »
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I find it funny how people can talk so much crap, but on the other hand nothing new.

@Ray I think you have a very good point. This whole test is absolutly sensless. I mean do you people feel great about your 18MP DMF system is better than a 14MP DSLR crop ? I mean that is just sad.

Certainly a test is not only about numbers, but numbers are important.

Get a life and stopp defending a review which just is not correctly made....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And here we go.. another one that never touched a DB.
Welcome to the medium format forum. Keep reading and you'll learn a lot.
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Ray
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« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2007, 09:29:10 PM »
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I find this turn of the thread quite interesting. It's giving me quite an insight into the mentality of some DB owners and the destructive effect that an excessive concern about invested interests can have on rational thought.

I get a clear sense here that even the possibility that a much cheaper and more versatile camera such as the 1Ds3 might be able to equal the quality of a P21 for all practical purposes and perhaps even exceed it (which I think is a real possibility if the P21 were cropped to the same aspect ratio as the 1Ds3), is sending some people into panic mode.

I see all the traditional defenses are up; bluster; irrelevant arguments; insults and disparagement; totally unreasonable demands that the critic go out and buy a DB for testing purposes and most absurdly of all claims that I am somehow responsible for a number of recent withdrawals from the forum by a few talented photographers with whom I've never even crossed words.

It really is a bizarre situation. I sometimes wonder if I had spent $30,000 on a DB, would I be so defensive about criticism. I doubt it. I'm too objective. A camera is not a staus symbol for me but a mere tool. I'm generally pleased with my Canon equipment. However, when another company starts offering what looks like a better alternative, I'm all ears. Nikon, and Olympus with their 4/3rds format and Zuiko lenses, now have alternatives that seem to be at least better in some respects than my Canon gear and I'm very interested, not so that I can defend my Canon gear to the death but to find out if these alternatives really would suit my purposes better.
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jing q
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« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2007, 10:03:07 PM »
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Obviously typing long forum posts is not as unreasonable as approaching a dealer and asking to test a digital back

No wonder my mother warned me about the dangers of the internet...
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Ray
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« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2007, 10:59:33 PM »
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Obviously typing long forum posts is not as unreasonable as approaching a dealer and asking to test a digital back

No wonder my mother warned me about the dangers of the internet...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You see what I mean. I've already explained about 6 times, there are no MFDB dealers where I presently am, in Chiang Mai, and even if there were, it is very unlikely the dealer would have a P21, and/or ZD, and a 1Ds3 sitting in his store.

I'd also be uncomfortable taking up someone's time (and it would take quite a while to do a proper comparison) when I have no intention of buying either a 1Ds3 or P21 because these cameras are too heavy for my style of shooting which involves visiting exotic locations and travelling light. I'll be waiting to see what the upgrade to the Canon 5D has to offer before making further camera purchases.

My interest in the comparison between the 3 cameras tested in this thread is purely academic.
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John_Black
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« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2007, 11:47:49 PM »
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I'd also be uncomfortable taking up someone's time (and it would take quite a while to do a proper comparison) when I have no intention of buying either a 1Ds3 or P21 because these cameras are too heavy for my style of shooting which involves visiting exotic locations and travelling light. I'll be waiting to see what the upgrade to the Canon 5D has to offer before making further camera purchases.

But that's exactly what you're doing here.  And you go on to say, "when I have no intention of buying either a 1Ds3 or P21", so why should anyone bother to upload files for you???
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« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2007, 12:26:04 AM »
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I'd also be uncomfortable taking up someone's time (and it would take quite a while to do a proper comparison) when I have no intention of buying either a 1Ds3 or P21 because these cameras are too heavy for my style of shooting which involves visiting exotic locations and travelling light. I'll be waiting to see what the upgrade to the Canon 5D has to offer before making further camera purchases.

My interest in the comparison between the 3 cameras tested in this thread is purely academic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158849\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough!!! However, I don't believe your primary interest is in MF DB even though you obviously devoted so much time here. So perhaps now it would be a good time to experiment with 35mm threads and decide accordingly.

As you already know 5D sounds good, so you are 5 steps ahead of everyone else here myself included and therefore you can achive more by focusing your attention to 35mm/5D environment.

Good Luck!
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Ray
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« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2007, 12:42:25 AM »
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But that's exactly what you're doing here.  And you go on to say, "when I have no intention of buying either a 1Ds3 or P21", so why should anyone bother to upload files for you???
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't expect anyone to upload files just for me or carry out a test just for me. Likewise, when I upload an image or a series of crops to demonstrate some photographic point on this forum, it's not for the benefit of one specific person on the forum but for anyone in the photographic community who might be interested, including those who are not members and just read posts.

The purpose of carrying out the tests at the beginning of this thread is presumably to be helpful to people who might be struggling with a decision as to whether or not buy to buy a ZD, or a 1Ds3 or perhaps a second hand P21, as well as to provide an interesting discussion point for those who have a general interest in such matters, whether or not they intend to buy such equipment.
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Ray
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« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2007, 01:08:40 AM »
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Fair enough!!! However, I don't believe your primary interest is in MF DB even though you obviously devoted so much time here. So perhaps now it would be a good time to experiment with 35mm threads and decide accordingly.

As you already know 5D sounds good, so you are 5 steps ahead of everyone else here myself included and therefore you can achive more by focusing your attention to 35mm/5D environment.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's always been a good time (for me) to experiment with 35mm threads. I'm doing it on a continuous basis. This minor foray into the MFDB part of forum is extra curricula for me and if the thread was not in part about 35mm equipment I probably wouldn't have commented.

But it is very much about 35mm equipment and I imagine there are a lot of folks very interested in how the 1Ds3 compares with DBs of similar pixel count, which is why the test was so disappointing in view of its serious flaws in methodology.

Some of you guys, if you don't mind my saying, seem to be pretty narrow-minded. I happen to be interested in a variety of formats, including the Olympus 4/3rds system which, compared with full frame 35mm, is very analagous to the comparison between 35mm and MFDB. Both sets of comparisons involve the difficulty of dealing with different aspect ratios, and both include a comparison between sensors of significantly different sizes, except the difference in size between the Olympus 4/3rds and FF 35 is actually greater.
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Caracalla
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« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2007, 01:49:35 AM »
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It's always been a good time (for me) to experiment with 35mm threads. I'm doing it on a continuous basis. This minor foray into the MFDB part of forum is extra curricula for me and if the thread was not in part about 35mm equipment I probably wouldn't have commented.

But it is very much about 35mm equipment and I imagine there are a lot of folks very interested in how the 1Ds3 compares with DBs of similar pixel count, which is why the test was so disappointing in view of its serious flaws in methodology.

Some of you guys, if you don't mind my saying, seem to be pretty narrow-minded. I happen to be interested in a variety of formats, including the Olympus 4/3rds system which, compared with full frame 35mm, is very analagous to the comparison between 35mm and MFDB. Both sets of comparisons involve the difficulty of dealing with different aspect ratios, and both include a comparison between sensors of significantly different sizes, except the difference in size between the Olympus 4/3rds and FF 35 is actually greater.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Perhaps all of us are pretty narrow-minded in the circle of your comfort, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't find help here regardless of who you are listening/talking to.

I know you happen to be interested in a variety of formats, however obviously not in variety of MFDB formats.

Personally, I would narrow my interest to my affordable price range, my favourite format and basically start from there.

Good luck anyway!
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KevinA
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« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2007, 02:06:45 AM »
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It's always been a good time (for me) to experiment with 35mm threads. I'm doing it on a continuous basis. This minor foray into the MFDB part of forum is extra curricula for me and if the thread was not in part about 35mm equipment I probably wouldn't have commented.

But it is very much about 35mm equipment and I imagine there are a lot of folks very interested in how the 1Ds3 compares with DBs of similar pixel count, which is why the test was so disappointing in view of its serious flaws in methodology.

Some of you guys, if you don't mind my saying, seem to be pretty narrow-minded. I happen to be interested in a variety of formats, including the Olympus 4/3rds system which, compared with full frame 35mm, is very analagous to the comparison between 35mm and MFDB. Both sets of comparisons involve the difficulty of dealing with different aspect ratios, and both include a comparison between sensors of significantly different sizes, except the difference in size between the Olympus 4/3rds and FF 35 is actually greater.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was reading a comparison the other day between a Kodak 14n and Sigma, to compare they printed large prints then scanned the prints and published the results. At first I thought what a daft way to test, it probably shows the scanners capabilities more than the cameras. The more I thought about it the better idea appeared. Looking at stuff 100% on a computer screen to spot small differences is about as relevant as judging them by the screen on the back of the camera.
Worrying about was this focused there or different apertures on different formats with different lenses is pointless. The only question that needs answering is does it deliver what you need, which is more often what the client needs.
I hate scientific tests, they have little relevance to most photographers, so what if a camera on a heavy tripod at a certain aperture with the mirror up can produce beautiful results, if you work handheld at which ever aperture the light allows etc. You don't really test a camera until you have owned it and used it in anger for some time. All you can get from the internet is "does it look good enough to take a chance on" the test posted here shows that quite well and when we see more files from the mkIII we will build more of an impression. This test is but one sentence in a chapter, we will get more of the story as time moves on seeing a variety of images in differing situations. Complaining it should of been done like this or that will not tell anyone anything. Of course anyone is free to go and do a test the "correct" way anytime they like.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2007, 02:09:32 AM »
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maybe michael will do us the favor to move this tread to the 35mm section whereto it belongs.
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rainer viertlböck
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