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Author Topic: Death of the Hasselblad V series?  (Read 13371 times)
JessicaLuchesi
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« on: December 11, 2007, 08:31:31 AM »
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Reading the article, and several posts on the Sinar Hy6 system, one thing came to mind... Hasselblad has the incredible V system, a very successful design, one that I love, a full 6x6 body. While Sinar, Leaf and Mamyia are gaining on developing open platform solutions, Hassel is sticking to a closed down H3D system. And the only digital support Hassel gives to the V series, is a 16Mp back, hardly enough for today's demands on MFDB level photography.

Why doesn't Hasselblad create a new V series body, updated with everything the H3 series has to offer, leaving all great things from the legacy V systems, as an open system, viable competitor to Sinar and Mamyia? And not locking it for digital use only, leaving it still compatible with the A12 film back.

I know it's not something easy to do, but I wonder why no longer any development go on the V series, since it's really SO successful, even Hassel had to acknowledge it with the new 16Mp back, and for a while, it's been one of the systems of choice for using PhaseOne backs. It's not just gonna die away, so why not simply recognize it, and do a full update?

PS: And yes, if I had that kind of resource to invest in a MFDB now, I would request a Hy6 test before thinking on the H3D. As I'm on rental, it's the 501CM with a Phase One back for me.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 08:35:33 AM by JessicaLuchesi » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 08:42:09 AM »
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-Because people given choice might buy less Hassy backs and supposedly deveoping making bodies is a lossy business ??

-surely at the development stage of the H (some time ago) they realised the V design had to be scrapped if they wanted the H feature list including AF

-there is of course lost HC lens revenue to consider too

S
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Mike W
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 08:44:02 AM »
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One would think they would do SOMETHING with it.....

One important remark; you can use Hasselblads top line mfdb's on the V-series as well.
All CF backs connect tot the 500's via an adapter.

To make it autofocus and electronic Hasselblad would have to reintroduce the 200 series. Doable,but since the 200 series was no big success, they're not inclined to do so...

Perhaps when square sensors hit the market in the future?

regards,

Mike
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Roskav
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 08:51:54 AM »
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I use a V series regularly with an Aptus 75 .. it's great, lightweight, flexible and economic system.  I think it has plenty of years in it still.

Ros
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tom_l
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 09:01:04 AM »
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For people (like me) who do a lot of studio, some architecture. The V system is still an interesting system. Don't count on Hasselblad to update the 500 series bodies.

But i think there might be a market for CFV backs. The 16MP back was a great ides, but with the wrong sensor, I suppose it was a solution for Hasselblad to get rid of their square sensors in stock. Now, if Hasslelblad is intelligent enough to sell their 22mp chip in this back for <7500 Euro, they can count on a whole new market to join MF community: semi-pro's, wedding guys, artists...


Tom
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Snook
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 09:18:25 AM »
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For people (like me) who do a lot of studio, some architecture. The V system is still an interesting system. Don't count on Hasselblad to update the 500 series bodies.

But i think there might be a market for CFV backs. The 16MP back was a great ides, but with the wrong sensor, I suppose it was a solution for Hasselblad to get rid of their square sensors in stock. Now, if Hasslelblad is intelligent enough to sell their 22mp chip in this back for <7500 Euro, they can count on a whole new market to join MF community: semi-pro's, wedding guys, artists...
Tom
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HassleBlads is going backwards really FAST...
They thought they were being clever trying to close out the market for themselves.
I checked out a H3DII last week and I thought is was utterly Cr@p!
Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.
The software looked way over complicated also.
Snook
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 09:27:50 AM »
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H3DII, slow focusing JUNK.
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 09:36:51 AM »
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If anything the evidence points to Hasselblad abandoning the V system. Okay, they stopped manufacturing the film based 200 system, I don't think anyone could read anything too sinister into that decision. But as well they've delisted the 903/905 38mm camera, the 555ELD, the Flexbody and the Arcbody, plus they're really cutting back on the accessory range, for example they don't even offer a basic grip anymore.  

It looks to me as if Hasselblad will keep the V series range ticking over as long as it's still making a tiny contributon to overheads (and I understand that by off-shoring most of the manufacturing they are now just in the black with the V series), but it receives absolutely no attention or investment, and I suspect that at the first hint of it slipping into the red it'll be shut down for good.

I use a V series with a digital back, and for architectural interiors it's perfectly serviceable, plus after thirty years using a V body it's just second nature. But I wouldn't recommend a younger photographer, who is investing in a new MF digital platform, to buy into the V system There's no TTL flash control, the trigger cabling is simply clumsy, you'll have to scavenge E-Bay for accessories, and its future looks distinctly rocky.

Sad, but that's progress.
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 09:48:52 AM »
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A big factor here is the format difference. Hasselblad has a 6 by 6 square format. This format was popular in the film era for twin lens reflexes like the Rolleiflex that killed the dominant news camera: the Graflex. A camera with waist level finder was lighter and could be use for point and shoot from the hip while riding in the back of a Vespa paparazzi stile.

In more resent times Mamiya advanced the notion that a square format was wast full and inefficient --this doesn't mean that it had its iconic significance and large and important following-- because magazines and enlarging paper was not square so the 6 x 6 ended up most of the time as a 6 x 4.5 or close.

So they cover the two flanks of the Hasselblad format with the workhorse RB-RZ 67 and a 645 Pro.

Hasselblad must have realized that sensor size was estabilizing in the 6 x 4.5 and developed the H system with Fujifilm to be able to compete in the digital era. If they had continued with the 66 format the may be extinct by now --I think--.

There is one question that translates to digital times and is an interesting and good one.
a) Will we see MF sensor physically larger than the Delsa/Kodak of today,
b ) If this happens, how is the proportion of the real state gain going to be.

Creating a new larger size generation of sensors must be extremely expensive, so, will the chip makers go the square size way considering that this may not be the most efficient format since most applications are not square... will it just grow constraining proportions.

I would be surprised to see that a) and b ) produced a 6 x 6 format.

 

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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:52:15 AM by Leonardo Barreto » Logged

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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 09:58:25 AM »
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i'm very happy that hasselblad has a closed system. i want a completely integrated system like the h3d II. everything works seamlessly, one battery in the grip that powers everything, complete control of everything with the parameter settings in the grip display or directly from the software.

thank goodness hassy has the resources, the knowhow and the balls to do it right and leave all the open system bull behind them. i've had enough slow motion, non communicating, work around solutions with backs, cameras, lenses, cables and etc. i'm done with it.

what is the advantage? so i can switch from leaf to phase on the same cam? have you taken a look at the trade in policies these companies offer for people with other backs? it's not the closed system that is standing in your way it the 10k loss you'll take by switching!
or is it the possibility of using two or three different backs on one camera? at 30k a pop i don't think i'll be going that route and doubling or tripling the problems i have with just one system to boot. and to what advantage? it's not like switching from porta to velvia with film. the differences in the files are very small

as far as the v series goes, you can use all the v series lenses via an adaptor on an h series camera and retain full communication, aperture priority, etc.
the v series body is basically a black box with a mirror in it, so you're not losing anything by using an h series body and you can still keep the v to shoot film with...

no thanks, i want usable iso 800 and soon 1600, wide angle lens correction, excellent af, constant improvement via firmware updates and even more integration of all the pieces that make a camera – not more headaches.
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joern_kiel
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 10:11:03 AM »
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HassleBlads is going backwards really FAST...
They thought they were being clever trying to close out the market for themselves.
I checked out a H3DII last week and I thought is was utterly Cr@p!
Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.
The software looked way over complicated also.
Snook
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Time will tell what is junk and what is not. A lot of folks making their living with that.

BTW, Apple is a closed system, too.
And they were "clever" enough to get YOU on board - oups.

Cheers
jørn


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Your logic, if you have any, will take care of itself.
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 10:12:29 AM by joern_kiel » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 10:27:37 AM »
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A closed system doesn't make it a flaw-free system. There is a lot to say in favour of open systems that goes beyond just being able to swap backs.

Unfortunately Hasselblad did not go that way. I actually like the H system most of the time. Agreed the AF is total shit compared to the AF in my Nikon. I also was astonished the first time I gazed throught the viewfinder with the HC35. I got prove the world is round.

Besides that the H works and has pretty good lenses too. Now if Hasselblad would just put a decent finish on the thing I think most people would stop complaining about the plasticness.

I hate the command dials which are placed in position where you can't reach them while working and you will turn them when holding the body in any other position. etc..

All in all, it has flaws but for the purpose I use it it is delivering.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 11:07:19 AM »
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A closed system doesn't make it a flaw-free system.

an open system doesn't make it a flawless system either.

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There is a lot to say in favour of open systems that goes beyond just being able to swap backs.

uch as? no cynicism here, just want to know what an open system gives me other than the ability to switch backs.
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 01:13:44 PM »
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Hi
Here is an article from LL dated March 1996. I find it interesting what was said about the H2. About the V series as long as there are sales it will still be made which is business.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/h...interview.shtml
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Denis Montalbetti
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Dustbak
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 01:13:52 PM »
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3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 01:20:52 PM by Dustbak » Logged
samuel_js
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 01:21:45 PM »
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I think an integrated system can be open too. The fact that I can connect the 28mm HC to my H2 but it's not recognized by the camera is the proof of a closed system. It has nothing to do with integration.
By the way, my combo H2/Phase is working flawless, so personally, I don't see the advantages of integration either.
The new phase camera will hopefully be this, integrated but an open system.
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photo570
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 01:33:54 PM »
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3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mention DXO, have you actually used the Flexcolor? The built in DAC is basically DXO, but you don't have to guess the focus distance if your camera doesn't record it.

I just don't get it, people seem to rave about DXO, which I have, and yet slag DAC as a "marketing gimmick". It makes a visible difference to image files. If I had a question for Hasselblad it would be "Why did you include a tick box for this? Who in their right mind would turn it off?"

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.
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Jason Berge
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2007, 02:10:38 PM »
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Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Talk about plastic go see the Mamiya ZD 645 AFD or what ever its called. On that thing everything is plastic including lenses. On my H1s only viewfinder cover and grip are plastic but lenses are solid aluminum.

Maybe H-series focusing is not super fast but it works. And works really well. H system is really good damn shame it's closed but I have two bodies so it doesn't really matter.

By the way where does this "plastic" thing come from?
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 02:15:00 PM »
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3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hmmm, either we're talking about two different things or i just don't know what you're getting at. i'm talking about a closed system (h3d) that doesn't accept third party backs. that's all. not an isolated system that is completely seperated from all developement elsewhere.

anyone can make a bracket that fits an h3d. or a lens shade or bright screen, etc.. the h3d files can be saves as dng in flexcolor and run through acr or lightroom if that is what you want to use. so if this is what you're talking about then it's not a closed system.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2007, 02:18:23 PM »
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You mention DXO, have you actually used the Flexcolor? The built in DAC is basically DXO, but you don't have to guess the focus distance if your camera doesn't record it.

I just don't get it, people seem to rave about DXO, which I have, and yet slag DAC as a "marketing gimmick". It makes a visible difference to image files. If I had a question for Hasselblad it would be "Why did you include a tick box for this? Who in their right mind would turn it off?"

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes Jason, I use Flexcolor and DAC. I used DxO here as an example amongst others. I am sure if we would start thinking for awhile we could come up with even more.

I did not slag DAC as a marketing gimmick now did I?

Personally I am more interested in ACR support for Hasselblad files. That is not here either. I would love to have DAC like correction on that as well.

I would also like direct support of 3FR files in RD.

@Kipling.
We are partly talking about different things. I love my CF back that I can use on more than one type of body. I would hate to see that line disappear soon. I dislike the fact I cannot use my Hasselblad back on the H3, mind you this is a back in the current line of Hasselblad. I guess you are also right there are more parts about open & closed.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 02:26:49 PM by Dustbak » Logged
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