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Author Topic: P45+ Centerfold  (Read 15794 times)
eronald
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« on: December 11, 2007, 08:29:24 PM »
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My P45+ has its issues, and although my very nice dealer (Le Moyen Format) would like to see it swapped, the local Paris Phase rep -Prophot- thinks he'll lose money if he sends it back without my proving by shooting in front of him that  it's broke. And the back acts up at random so I cannot prove it's broken. So here today is a nice, heavily postprocessed image (saturated, texturized) which is actually near salable except it has a centerfold dividing it into a Right and a Left half. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrggghh!

Of course, according to the rep, I'm not supposed to shoot at 400, ISO. I think Phase should give me a back that works, and then I'll keep on showing people how wonderful 400 ISO looks when the P45+ is working properly ... otherwise I guess I have to keep showing my broken images until someone gets the point - reminds me of the Leaf story a year or so ago ...

This image is really good except for the centerfold - and it was properly exposed. As shown it has been saturated, textured, and hue-rotated and stray hair has been retouched. There has been no sharpening . I can provide Raw if people want to look, but would prefer not to as I will sell prints of this one, I think, although I don't know which hue variation -think Warhol- is cutest. The model is a mannequin in  a shop in  Zurich which is why I needed 400 ISO.











Edmund
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 08:57:29 PM by eronald » Logged
hilljf
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 08:41:37 PM »
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Ed,
    It looks like the two sides of the chip are responding to the light very differently.

    Fortunately my P45+ has not exhibited any of these issues yet.  Although I don't use it at ISO 400 much.

    Good luck.  John
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MikeMike
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 08:43:35 PM »
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Why is there a split in the colour on the first image? Is that the problem your talking about?

Michael
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eronald
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 08:44:59 PM »
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Why is there a split in the colour on the first image? Is that the problem your talking about?

Michael
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There is a split in both, it is more visible in the first. Yes, that is today's problem with this back.


Edmund
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eronald
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 08:48:18 PM »
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Ed,
    It looks like the two sides of the chip are responding to the light very differently.

    Fortunately my P45+ has not exhibited any of these issues yet.  Although I don't use it at ISO 400 much.

    Good luck.  John
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John,
 That would indicate that Phase could find me a working back if they wanted to.

Edmund
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thsinar
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 08:51:45 PM »
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No need to shoot at ISO 400 to have centerfold issues: just shoot a uniform grey background and steepen a bit the curve, and you will see it, if the sensor is out of a certain specification.

Thierry

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Ed,
    It looks like the two sides of the chip are responding to the light very differently.

    Fortunately my P45+ has not exhibited any of these issues yet.  Although I don't use it at ISO 400 much.

    Good luck.  John
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Thierry Hagenauer
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eronald
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 09:03:31 PM »
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Thank you, Thierry.

Strange thing, the various problems don't appear in every shot,  but they uncannily appear in the good images  I'm starting to think there must be an environmental factor contributing, eg heat generated as the camera is used. Actually that would make sense - if something interests me I shoot several shots in succession and hey-presto, hot sensor.
Edmund

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No need to shoot at ISO 400 to have centerfold issues: just shoot a uniform grey background and steepen a bit the curve, and you will see it, if the sensor is out of a certain specification.

Thierry
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:14:02 PM by eronald » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 09:13:38 PM »
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hi Edmund,

as said: try to shoot a grey uniform background, evenly lit, and shoot some images. Then go and steepen the curve and you will see if you have it all the time or randomly.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thank you, Thierry.

Strange thing, the various problems don't appear in every shot,  but they uncannily appear in the good images  I'm starting to think there must be an environmental factor contributing, eg heat generated as the camera is used, or stray light.

Edmund
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Thierry Hagenauer
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eronald
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 09:22:26 PM »
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hi Edmund,

as said: try to shoot a grey uniform background, evenly lit, and shoot some images. Then go and steepen the curve and you will see if you have it all the time or randomly.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry -

 Sounds like a precise prescription, Doctor   I'll do that as soon as I wake up tomorrow.

Edmund
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thsinar
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 09:33:46 PM »
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Thierry -

 Sounds like a precise prescription, Doctor   I'll do that as soon as I wake up tomorrow.

Edmund
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 09:38:06 PM »
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Ed I have the same "problem" with my A65 back.....but when the image processes it dissapears.

In your case it doesn't, maybe it is a firmware upgrade?

In my images it is most evident in underexposed situations.
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eronald
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 09:48:11 PM »
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Ed I have the same "problem" with my A65 back.....but when the image processes it dissapears.

In your case it doesn't, maybe it is a firmware upgrade?

In my images it is most evident in underexposed situations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Nicolaas,

Interesting you should talk about underexposure ...

My underexposed shots with this Phase P45+ back are often wrecked by *horizontal* stripes, but here Phase claims it is because they are underexposed .... The image above (and some others) is more entertaining  because here the edge is *vertical* while the shot is well-exposed.

The thing is, these vertical and horizontal edges are very visible to me because I'm a color consultant, and I know they will be equally visible to any working photographer, but in an unenhanced image they are not visible to a "normal" person working in a camera dealership. Of course, once a file is manipulated in Photoshop, curved or sharpened, any defects jump out. Anyone who doubts this can look at the C1 screenshot above and the way it gets turned into a print.

Ric Agudelo (Ric Agu here on LL) shoots Phase and uses my Phase profiles, and he was in Paris this weekend, and he too could see the centerfold and banding issues with my back with one glance at the display.

All of this makes me very, very frustrated, because the ergonomics of the back are good, the camera works usably, the colors are wonderful, the resolution is superb, there is little grain at ISO 400, but I cannot get the hi-iso (400+) imagery I want because the back I paid for is broken


Edmund
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 10:32:07 PM by eronald » Logged
Sean H
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 10:52:12 PM »
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Edmund,

It must be deeply frustrating to have to deal with this situation, especially after having ordered the camera/back, paid a good sum of Euros and then have this awful situation happen. Perhaps you may wish to consider contacting P1 HQ in Copenhagen? If I were them I would want to make this problem go away swiftly. We will all be watching to see how they deal with you, providing moral support. But we'll also like to hear about the results of the grey card shot that Thierry mentioned.

Link: http://www.phaseone.com/Content/ContactUs/...ctPhaseOne.aspx

Sean
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 11:03:57 PM by Sean H » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2007, 01:26:38 AM »
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The centerfold is there, not extremely well visible but it is there. Kodak sensors aren't supposed to have this but we have seen more examples.

It appears you have got a lemon.

I am astonished your dealer is not taken the courtesy of looking into your problem more seriously. Have you tried contacting P1 directly?
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 02:49:30 AM »
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Edmund, I have been following your saga and feeling your pain. I think you have been incredibly patient, may be a little too much. It seems Phase don't really want to know about this (that's NOT an anti-Phase statement, simply a logical response to what has been described) and that horrifies me and annoys my little botty off. In the UK we have the Sale of Goods Act, which means products have to be fit for the purpose. I would be surprised if you don't have an equivalent in France. It would be very easy to get professional opnions, many, to back you up stating that the back you have is clearly unfit. Personally, I would have had Phase in court long ago - or at least threatened to. Again, this view is not especially anti-Phase, it's driven more by an offended sense of justice.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2007, 03:50:43 AM »
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Edmund, I heard you opened a "customer case" on their website? I'm very surprised by their response. They closed the case? They don't close any cases unless the problem is resolved.
I quote you text here:

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Samuel,
Thank you for your confirmation of my own findings. I had a Phase One case open. They CLOSED my case as soon as I sent them that file !!!! They refused to acknowledge that this is a clear indication that the back has issues at 400 ISO, and pretend it's only a 800 ISO underexposed problem. I don't know what is the matter here but I'm feeling increasingly unhappy, even more so as I paid for the VA option. The rep agreed now to send the back to Denmark, we'll see if Phase actually does something to fix the issues, but if they are in denial maybe having some pro photographers using Phase products look at that file and chiming in might help ...

if this is back is defective, as I believe, then it needs to be repaired or replaced. If as Phase believe it is in spec and this is Phase P45+normal quality at ISO 400 then I think prospective buyers deserve to be shown what problems they can expect.

Here is what they wrote me:

------------

Hi thanks for the image - i have looked at the image and i have posted Olivier from Prophot some suggestions and answers. I have also suggestted him that you can try one of their P 45+ to compare.

What i have written Prophot is that a 1-2 f-stop under exposure and then at ISO 800 leaves the signal/noise ratio in a very low position where you will get difficulties. The sensor will only use a minimum of the dynamic range that way. Instead we recommend that you get a image correct exposed and then afterretouch whatever changes you may have. I have also written that maybe you should try a P 30+ or P21+ instead - these camerabacks are more optimized for higher ISO (P 30+ ISO 1600) and they both have microlenses in case you need to shoot in dark invironment.

About the 3.7.7 crash when processing can only be related to your local Mac - please ensure that RAM and CPU are performing well and the harddrive as well. The pattern noise supression will be supported in the final 3.7.8 version that will be release in the comming weeks.

Thanks
Customer Support
[/span]

You really need to put press on them. They cannot provide you with a back that doesn't work properly. Be more aggressive.
I find PhaseOne's support remarkable. My feeling is that it's your dealer you should be complaining to. They are responsible.
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2007, 05:25:03 AM »
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I just read your post, and thought i should see if my images had a centerfold... I pull up the last job i did on my P45+, drag the exposure compensation to the very bottom, and whooops, there it is!

-axel

PS: I'm not so sure the P45+ examples we are seeing are lemons any more, i'm getting the feeling that it affects a number of these backs. If people with recent production P45+ backs could check their files by pulling/pushing a bit, I'd be happy to see some genuine non flawed raw files!

PS2: My dealer has told me this centerfold issue is a "Lens Cast Error". If anyone can confirm that it's Phase Ones official explanation that a perfect line in the middle of the frame, from an image shot with a HC100 f2.2 lens on a H2 body, is a typical example of lens cast, I'll bite the bullet  


[attachment=4225:attachment]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 05:37:01 AM by godtfred » Logged

Axel Bauer
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2007, 05:55:21 AM »
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Axel,

this is certainly not a "lens cast": it is a line located exactly in the half of the sensor. That's what we call "centerfold". And your image is shot with ISO 100.

Best regards,
Thierry


Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I just read your post, and thought i should see if my images had a centerfold... I pull up the last job i did on my P45+, drag the exposure compensation to the very bottom, and whooops, there it is!

-axel

PS: I'm not so sure the P45+ examples we are seeing are lemons any more, i'm getting the feeling that it affects a number of these backs. If people with recent production P45+ backs could check their files by pulling/pushing a bit, I'd be happy to see some genuine non flawed raw files!

PS2: My dealer has told me this centerfold issue is a "Lens Cast Error". If anyone can confirm that it's Phase Ones official explanation that a perfect line in the middle of the frame, from an image shot with a HC100 f2.2 lens on a H2 body, is a typical example of lens cast, I'll bite the bullet   
[attachment=4225:attachment]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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eronald
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2007, 06:04:34 AM »
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Axel -

My guess is the various backs all have this to some degree, and it is solved by firmware/software. For some reason the software cannot clean up the images from our backs - my guess is the hardware is out of spec, or gets out of spec when it warms up during shooting and is subjected to  thermal gradients.

Exactly how much exposure compensation a Phase back is supposed to take before the image breaks into half I don't know. But I do think that ZERO image compensation at 400 ISO using their own software can be expected to be clean and not break into two halves.

And then of course I have a question - if I make a camera profile using my back, which is the side I should profile ?    Maybe I should image two targets, one on the right and one on the left ?

This defect makes a mockery of any serious attempt at determining accurate camera color, and certainly prevents me from giving or selling others profiles which have been created with the back Phase has sold to me.

As some of you may have noticed, I have not sent out any new Phase profiles for the P45+ since I bought this back . This may have seemed strange to you, but now you know why - I didn't feel entirely comfortable with my sample.

Edmund


Quote
I just read your post, and thought i should see if my images had a centerfold... I pull up the last job i did on my P45+, drag the exposure compensation to the very bottom, and whooops, there it is!

-axel

PS: I'm not so sure the P45+ examples we are seeing are lemons any more, i'm getting the feeling that it affects a number of these backs. If people with recent production P45+ backs could check their files by pulling/pushing a bit, I'd be happy to see some genuine non flawed raw files!

PS2: My dealer has told me this centerfold issue is a "Lens Cast Error". If anyone can confirm that it's Phase Ones official explanation that a perfect line in the middle of the frame, from an image shot with a HC100 f2.2 lens on a H2 body, is a typical example of lens cast, I'll bite the bullet   
[attachment=4225:attachment]
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 06:20:09 AM by eronald » Logged
michael
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 06:41:04 AM »
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Edmund,

You really should scold your dealer and then contact Phase management. There is no reason to have to put up with anything other than a perfect product at this price point.

Backs can have this problem because the data is read out from the center of the chip to the side. This means that at the point where the two data read outs start there is a levels mismatch.

One doesn't see minor mismatches within a single readout because the discontinuities are so small, but where they meet there can sometimes be this type of discrepancy.

I don't know about other back makers, but what Phase does is test every chip and then create a calibration file (up to about about 1MB) which is burned into the ROM and which is then embedded into each raw file. The raw software is supposed to read that data and then correct any flaws.

Clearly, something in that chain isn't happening properly.

Do pursue Phase until they make it right. Your dealer is letting you down. In my experience Phase won't ignore you, just as would be the case with any of the other back makers. They all stand behind their products and will make it right.

Michael
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