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Author Topic: P45+ Centerfold  (Read 16014 times)
eronald
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 08:57:38 AM »
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Greetings, Michael !

 Thank you for your support on this.
 I've called up the product manager for backs at Phase One, emailed him a link to this thread with the centerfold images,  and he said he will set something up.
 I'm due to take in the back tomorrow to the rep.  We will see how it goes, I'm looking forward to have a working back, I happen to like taking pictures, and also there are some color experiments which I need to do.

Edmund

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Edmund,

You really should scold your dealer and then contact Phase management. There is no reason to have to put up with anything other than a perfect product at this price point.

Backs can have this problem because the data is read out from the center of the chip to the side. This means that at the point where the two data read outs start there is a levels mismatch.

One doesn't see minor mismatches within a single readout because the discontinuities are so small, but where they meet there can sometimes be this type of discrepancy.

I don't know about other back makers, but what Phase does is test every chip and then create a calibration file (up to about about 1MB) which is burned into the ROM and which is then embedded into each raw file. The raw software is supposed to read that data and then correct any flaws.

Clearly, something in that chain isn't happening properly.

Do pursue Phase until they make it right. Your dealer is letting you down. In my experience Phase won't ignore you, just as would be the case with any of the other back makers. They all stand behind their products and will make it right.

Michael
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 09:17:03 AM by eronald » Logged
JDG
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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 09:46:34 AM »
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Edmund,

there was a Beta 3.7.8 released quite sometime ago that  was made to fix Centerfold issues.  Your dealer or phase one can get you a copy of it.
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digitalcameraman
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2007, 09:49:46 AM »
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My P45+ has its issues, and although my very nice dealer (Le Moyen Format) would like to see it swapped, the local Paris Phase rep -Prophot- thinks he'll lose money if he sends it back without my proving by shooting in front of him that  it's broke. And the back acts up at random so I cannot prove it's broken. So here today is a nice, heavily postprocessed image (saturated, texturized) which is actually near salable except it has a centerfold dividing it into a Right and a Left half. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrggghh!

Of course, according to the rep, I'm not supposed to shoot at 400, ISO. I think Phase should give me a back that works, and then I'll keep on showing people how wonderful 400 ISO looks when the P45+ is working properly ... otherwise I guess I have to keep showing my broken images until someone gets the point - reminds me of the Leaf story a year or so ago ...

This image is really good except for the centerfold - and it was properly exposed. As shown it has been saturated, textured, and hue-rotated and stray hair has been retouched. There has been no sharpening . I can provide Raw if people want to look, but would prefer not to as I will sell prints of this one, I think, although I don't know which hue variation -think Warhol- is cutest. The model is a mannequin in  a shop in  Zurich which is why I needed 400 ISO.





Edmund
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Eronald:

It does appear to be a center fold issue. I just wanted to let you know from a dealer stand point that there is no loss of money when  a camera is replaced by P1. This is done by P1 exchanging the unit froms service stock. Your dealer needs to step up to the plate and get this done for you. Over the last year I have had many P1 camera backs shipped by P1 that showed artifacts. In all cases I was able to get a replacement shipped the same day I opened the case. All of this from the service techs looking at one RAW file they could determine that the back was defective. This makes it less painful.

But what I have seen and heard a lot about most recently is cameras backs having to sent back to P1 for recalibration. I just do not buy it either. At the price point these products cost, they should work flawless. I would expect that as a photographer and as a dealer. It is good that you have a VA warranty because I have had customers that did not have that warranty and they had to do without while there camera back that they purchased and paid for was sent back to the factory for recalibration. The recalibration should not be needed in the first place. The camera back should have been delivered without these issues.

Most interesting I have recently seen some similar artifacts from only ISO 200-400. The images contained a black curtain and half way across the curtain there was a 50 point magenta cast from the top to the bottom. Never a problem at ISO 100 with strobe. Thousands of captures with no issues until the ISO was changed.

I hope you get a perfect one next time and thanks for sharing this with us.



Chris Snipes
President
Image Production, Inc
www.imageproduction.com
chris@imageproduction.com

Phase One Test Studio Florida
New and Used Phase One camera backs
Phase One Production Motorhome
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Chris Snipes
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2007, 09:52:04 AM »
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Edmund,

My P45+ arrived a few weeks ago and had a similar centerfold issue (as well as a capacitor whine).  I sent .TIFFs to my dealer (Optechs, Seattle) and they worked with Phase to replace my back immediately, no questions asked.

The back I have now has no hint of the centerfold issue that my previous one had.  Just like in your case, not every photograph exhibited the issue, but I did not study it long enough to attempt to determine a pattern.

I agree with Michael.  I can see no reason why they wouldn't want to make this right for you--Phase has been nothing but helpful in my personal experience.  I recommend politely insisting on a replacement unit.

You are welcome to contact me offline (PM or e-mail) if you would require contact information for folks within Phase if you feel you need to escalate this issue.

Best regards,
Brad
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 09:57:21 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

Ron Steinberg
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2007, 10:36:21 AM »
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Edmund, I don't have time to read the entire thread. Suffice it to say that this is NOT centerfold, as the Kodak chip is built from one piece. This is due to dual readouts of the chip (as Michael suggested). Simply obtain a copy of C1 3.7.8 beta from your Phase dealer, it should solve the problem. Note that the only thing that 3.7.8B changes is the dual readout problem, so please don't ask if it supports the latest greatest dSLR.

Regards,
Ron
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samuel_js
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2007, 10:48:03 AM »
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Edmund, I don't have time to read the entire thread. Suffice it to say that this is NOT centerfold, as the Kodak chip is built from one piece. This is due to dual readouts of the chip (as Michael suggested). Simply obtain a copy of C1 3.7.8 beta from your Phase dealer, it should solve the problem. Note that the only thing that 3.7.8B changes is the dual readout problem, so please don't ask if it supports the latest greatest dSLR.

Regards,
Ron
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Edmund, I have the 3.7.8 version. If you want to try it just tell me. I'll make you an image of the CD. It may help solving your problem. (Who knows, maybe the "striations" too.)

/Samuel
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clawery
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2007, 11:41:49 AM »
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Edmund,

Sorry to hear that you are having an issue with your P45+.  We have forwarded the issue you are having with your digital back to the president of Phase One.  

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration
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godtfred
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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2007, 11:44:09 AM »
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Edmund, I don't have time to read the entire thread. Suffice it to say that this is NOT centerfold, as the Kodak chip is built from one piece. This is due to dual readouts of the chip (as Michael suggested). Simply obtain a copy of C1 3.7.8 beta from your Phase dealer, it should solve the problem. Note that the only thing that 3.7.8B changes is the dual readout problem, so please don't ask if it supports the latest greatest dSLR.

Regards,
Ron
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I thought the centerfold on Dalsa chips came from a dual readout, and not the fact that the chips are made from 6 "casts". There is no line in a dalsa chip on the spot that the centerfold's appear (at the centre).

I don't know about this firsthand, I'm just going on the dalsa chip i inscpected a couple of weeks back, and the centerfold issue as I have seen examples on this forum... (and therefore might be very wrong on this one   )

-axel
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Axel Bauer
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eronald
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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2007, 12:17:34 PM »
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Edmund, I have the 3.7.8 version. If you want to try it just tell me. I'll make you an image of the CD. It may help solving your problem. (Who knows, maybe the "striations" too.)

/Samuel
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I have tried the V4 Beta 2 and I still have striations, they just move around to other places on the same images  and I really hate to look at the display on my back, the banding there is so ugly. The software does clean that up -except sometimes it doesn't.


Because of the way the problems move around the images, I don't think the factory calibration is necessarily bad, I am enclined to think that the back is drifting away from its calibrated position because of some hardware problem.

As an engineer I don't think sweeping hardware issues under the table with a software fix is a reliable long-term solution. If that back has a bad condenser in there or a bad solder joint, that will eventually come back to haunt me. And Murphy's law guarantees it'll happen when the prettiest girl in the world is standing in front of my lens

I now have zero confidence in this back. At this point I think Phase should provide me with a sample of the P45+ that is clearly within spec and shoots well at 400 and 800 Iso with no strange artefacts. I paid for the VA warranty, so assuming less than 10% of the backs have an issue, Phase shouldn't consider they are losing money on a swap.
 
Edmund
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 12:26:52 PM by eronald » Logged
Fred Ragland
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2007, 01:57:51 PM »
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...I now have zero confidence in this back. At this point I think Phase should provide me with...
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We see this type of message often from newcomers trying to leverage their position with a supplier by garnering sentiment on the forum.  Manipulation never sits well with some of us, even though the target may be the next guy and not us.  

When we've run out of options, this may be the only alternative. But that's not the case here. Several with influence and insight have offered assistance and its yet to be known what effect they will have.  

Give Phase a chance.


Fred
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PatrikR
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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2007, 02:05:00 PM »
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I now have zero confidence in this back. At this point I think Phase should provide me with a sample of the P45+ that is clearly within spec and shoots well at 400 and 800 Iso with no strange artefacts. I paid for the VA warranty, so assuming less than 10% of the backs have an issue, Phase shouldn't consider they are losing money on a swap.
 
Edmund
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Obviously these are extremely fine equipment that are assembled by hand. It's possible like you write that there's a bad solder joint or tiny 5 cent resistor gone bad. It happened to me once with a Sony Vaio memory connector. There's no way of knowing and obviously the problem is not solving by writing and showing what a terrible product you have.

If I was you I would put the back in its case and take it to the dealer and demand warranty service and full inspection because of the unexpected performance. Since you have the VA they'll probably provide a loaner for you to shoot and "test". The dealer has to provide service if you so request.
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2007, 05:18:35 PM »
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We see this type of message often from newcomers trying to leverage their position with a supplier by garnering sentiment on the forum.  Manipulation never sits well with some of us, even though the target may be the next guy and not us. 

When we've run out of options, this may be the only alternative. But that's not the case here. Several with influence and insight have offered assistance and its yet to be known what effect they will have. 

Give Phase a chance.
Fred
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Perhaps you miss the difference in Edmund's case. He has apparently paid for a "hot swap" warranty that entitles him to an immediate loaner of a replacement P45+ while his dealer and Phase go figure out what the source of the problem is and how to fix it.
As an aside, I think Edmund's experience is an object lesson as to why buying a MFDB is a radically different buying experience from buying other products. A MFDB is a complex product and may very well need service, and the quality of your dealer and his relationship with the manufacturer make a huge difference in how that process will go. A dealer may even want to do right by you, but unless he is a major account with the manufacturer and has well earned influence, it won't matter. You may pay a bit more to buy a Hasselblad H3D from Steve Hendrix in Atlanta or a Phase back from Capture Integration than you would pay elsewhere, but problems are expeditiously addressed and resolved.
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eronald
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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2007, 05:33:09 PM »
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Edmund,

Sorry to hear that you are having an issue with your P45+.  We have forwarded the issue you are having with your digital back to the president of Phase One. 

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration
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Thank you Chris -
 It's a pity they don't have a clone of you over here, you're starting to become a legend

Edmund
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eronald
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2007, 05:48:39 PM »
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We see this type of message often from newcomers trying to leverage their position with a supplier by garnering sentiment on the forum.  Manipulation never sits well with some of us, even though the target may be the next guy and not us. 

When we've run out of options, this may be the only alternative. But that's not the case here. Several with influence and insight have offered assistance and its yet to be known what effect they will have. 

Give Phase a chance.
Fred
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Fred,

 I will be delighted to give Phase a chance.  In fact the product manager Espen Beck just got back to me by email, and I trust this will get straightened out soon, indeed I hope by tomorrow afternoon.

 By the way, I seem to have joined this forum a couple of years before you - like many here I am a carryover from the old RG MF forum which self-destructed, and we all found a new virtual home thanks to Michael's hospitality.

 As Hcubell points out, with MF we are buying products which are complex and too expensive to swap easily, and we are therefore dependent on the goodwill of our suppliers. Over time, an important part of the role of this forum has become helping each other locate a solid supply chain.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 05:50:29 PM by eronald » Logged
Sean H
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2007, 05:50:30 PM »
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Edmund,

we're keeping our fingers crossed for you!

Sean
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thsinar
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2007, 06:03:13 PM »
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Right, Godfred.

Thierry

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I thought the centerfold on Dalsa chips came from a dual readout, and not the fact that the chips are made from 6 "casts". There is no line in a dalsa chip on the spot that the centerfold's appear (at the centre).

I don't know about this firsthand, I'm just going on the dalsa chip i inscpected a couple of weeks back, and the centerfold issue as I have seen examples on this forum... (and therefore might be very wrong on this one   )

-axel
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2007, 09:20:26 PM »
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Thank you Chris -
 It's a pity they don't have a clone of you over here, you're starting to become a legend

Edmund
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Sad to say but, and I know your country really well, it was mine for 30 years, it's a place on earth where service is far from average...
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eronald
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« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2007, 02:12:12 AM »
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Sad to say but, and I know your country really well, it was mine for 30 years, it's a place on earth where service is far from average...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm actually from the UK, studied in France (my doctorate is from Ecole Polytéchnique). I like living over here - the food, the wine, the women, the art ...

Forget about getting anything serious done in a hurry, any attempt will likely end in frustration


Edmund
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 02:12:44 AM by eronald » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2007, 02:20:15 AM »
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that's why I moved to Switzerland first, then to Thailand, I mean for/because of the women ....

 

But I have my fair share of frustrations as well here in Thailand, when it comes to have things simply done, not even speaking about rush!

Cheers Edmund,
Thierry

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I'm actually from the UK, studied in France (my doctorate is from Ecole Polytéchnique). I like living over here - the food, the wine, the women, the art ...

Forget about getting anything serious done in a hurry, any attempt will likely end in frustration
Edmund
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2007, 02:39:52 AM »
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that's why I moved to Switzerland first, then to Thailand, I mean for/because of the women ....

 

But I have my fair share of frustrations as well here in Thailand, when it comes to have things simply done, not even speaking about rush!

Cheers Edmund,
Thierry
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Wonder how I ended up in Sweden.....   I'm originally from Spain.
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