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Author Topic: 9880 Romance Over  (Read 11077 times)
John Hollenberg
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« on: December 20, 2007, 09:09:07 AM »
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Just when it looked like it was safe to go back in the (Epson) water:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...read.php?t=4670

Brings back bad memories of exactly the same clogging problems I had with my Epson 9600.  Fits with my experience that the larger Epsons are worse for clogging than the smaller ones (Epson 3800 and smaller), which don't seem to be too much of a problem.

--John
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dennysb
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 10:23:34 AM »
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John,

The link you gave takes you to a page where you need to register before being able to see the article, just an FYI

Quote
Just when it looked like it was safe to go back in the (Epson) water:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...read.php?t=4670

Brings back bad memories of exactly the same clogging problems I had with my Epson 9600.  Fits with my experience that the larger Epsons are worse for clogging than the smaller ones (Epson 3800 and smaller), which don't seem to be too much of a problem.

--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dennys Bisogno

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framah
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 10:25:05 AM »
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That's funny... I have a 9600 for a few years now and it has NEVER clogged once. I don't use it sometimes for weeks and I turn it on and send the file to it and it prints (pigment inks only)perfectly every time.

My 2200, on the other hand was a piece of junk pretty much right off. It clogged so much I finally threw it out.

This pretty much unconfirms your theory that there is an on going problem with the larger Epsons.  

There will be bad ones  and good ones in every model.  To make blanket statements is never a good idea.

Go buy an HP or Canon and you can just as easily get a lemon there as well.
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"It took a  lifetime of suffering and personal sacrifice to develop my keen aesthetic sense."
John Hollenberg
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 11:04:57 AM »
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This pretty much unconfirms your theory that there is an on going problem with the larger Epsons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162020\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, at the time I had my problems I started a poll on the Epson wide format group.  About 30% of the respondents reported significant clogging problems with the large format printers.  There wasn't any difference between the X600 and X800 generation.  Assuming that the 3800 doesn't clog much (not too many reports), this data is at least some verification of my theory.

Edit:  We don't have any reports of clogging on the iPF printer Wiki (except for a few reports of printheads that went bad and were replaced by Canon), so that is a significant difference from Epsons.

--John
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 11:06:29 AM by John Hollenberg » Logged
Craig Murphy
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 11:09:26 AM »
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My 9800 was having bad nozzle checks last week. Humidity level in the studio and it was at 20%.  Way too dry so I went out a purchased a humidifier to bring the level up to 35-40%.  Has solved the problem.  Could be a coincidence but I don't think so.
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CMurph
John Hollenberg
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 11:40:48 AM »
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The link you gave takes you to a page where you need to register before being able to see the article, just an FYI
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't realize Asher had the forum set to require registration just to read the thread.  I will drop him a line later to see if this can be changed.

--John
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dealy663
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 09:22:18 PM »
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You know John, with this kind of post you are moving from a provider of useful info regarding Canon printers towards the shrill my brand is good and your brand kinda sucks drivel.

Quote
Just when it looked like it was safe to go back in the (Epson) water:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...read.php?t=4670

Brings back bad memories of exactly the same clogging problems I had with my Epson 9600.  Fits with my experience that the larger Epsons are worse for clogging than the smaller ones (Epson 3800 and smaller), which don't seem to be too much of a problem.

--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2007, 09:50:37 PM »
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You know John, with this kind of post you are moving from a provider of useful info regarding Canon printers towards the shrill my brand is good and your brand kinda sucks drivel.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The poster on OPF (provided you sign up) has considerable credibility in my eyes.  He is a long time poster on Outback Photo and has written some articles for them in the past, I believe.  He hoped the Epson was going to be better, but for him this hasn't been the case.  This is only one data point, but the fact that he is experiencing clogs (and moving clogs as he did before, and which I also experienced with my Epson 9600) suggests that the problems may not have changed significantly over the generations.  

I would like nothing better than for Epsons to be clog free printers, as their color is very good.  If you have read my article on LL and posts on the Wiki, you will see that I have been extremely critical of Canon and the way they handled the iPF5000 and its problems, to the point that I have been criticized for being way too harsh on Canon.  I think that it is equally important to point out the weaknesses of the Epsons.  Feel free to look at the only data I have seen in this regard:

[a href=\"http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/surveys?id=2201947]http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWi...veys?id=2201947[/url]

In this poll, which 92 people responded to, about 25-30% had significant clogging problems.

This topic is of interest to me, because I will soon be in the market for a 24 inch printer.

--John
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Gene Coggins
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 08:54:29 AM »
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I keep reading about Epson and how all they do is clog. Do any of you wonder why some of us never get clogs and other repeatedly get them all the time? Could it be something you may be doing wrong? Could it simply be your environment?

I have two 4800 printers purchased a year apart. One is loaded with PK and the other with MK inks. 95% of my printing is on fine art paper. Consequently, the 4800 with PK may sit for a long period of time.

Recently, I needed to make a print on RC paper. The PK printer had been off for four months. Sure, I needed to run two simple cleanings before I got a good pattern and could print the image.

In the three years I have owned the 4800 printers, I have never done a Power Cleaning on either machine. Only the simple cleaning or sometimes the Auto print confirmation.

So what is it that I am doing differently? The environment of the 4800s (and paper stock) are kept at 68 to 74F year round. The humidity is always between 40% and 50% year round. Also, since I print a low volume, I only purchase the 100ml ink cartridges. However, on the MK printer it does have a 220ml MK cartridge installed. With the printers powered down, I remove the ink cartridges once every two months and gently shake them. I alway power down the units at the end of the day. And before I run the first print of the day, I check the unit with a simple ink pattern check. I do print mostly sheet stock. But I proof on roll Enhance Matte.

One more data point: I also own a 1200 and a 2200 and I have never had a clog on them either. The only other variables left is witchcraft and alchemy. Or I am living in a downward vortex.

Gene
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 09:35:30 AM »
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I keep reading about Epson and how all they do is clog. Do any of you wonder why some of us never get clogs and other repeatedly get them all the time? Could it be something you may be doing wrong? Could it simply be your environment?

So what is it that I am doing differently? The environment of the 4800s (and paper stock) are kept at 68 to 74F year round. The humidity is always between 40% and 50% year round. Also, since I print a low volume, I only purchase the 100ml ink cartridges. However, on the MK printer it does have a 220ml MK cartridge installed. With the printers powered down, I remove the ink cartridges once every two months and gently shake them. I alway power down the units at the end of the day. And before I run the first print of the day, I check the unit with a simple ink pattern check. I do print mostly sheet stock. But I proof on roll Enhance Matte.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This has been discussed and debated on the Epson wide format list forever.  Every time someone would come up with a theory about why some have a problem and others don't, 3 other people would provide their experiences that shot the theory down.  My temperature and humidity readings are very close to what you describe, yet I have had a problem (in varying degrees) with every single Epson I have owned.      When the tech came out for problems with the 9600 I quizzed him about anything I might be doing that could cause the problem.  He didn't see anything I could be doing differently.   I don't print canvas or papers that would be expected to create a lot of paper dust with the cutting.

It seems that Paul Caldwell (the OP on the OPF thread) has had a similar experience with clogging problems.    It is indeed a mystery to me.  Perhaps alchemy is not such a bad explanation!

--John
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2007, 09:57:01 AM »
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No experience with the big epsons but my old epson clogged religiously.  I then put in a new furnace/ac system with a whole house humidifier.  Had the exact same behavior.

However, I tossed it to a friend and he had no clogging problems at all.

So, go figure.
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JesseSpeer
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2007, 10:42:13 AM »
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Poll summaries like that are fairly salacious, but also quite worthless unless you have also polled and presented the environmental conditions as well - which everyone knows is a critical factor when it comes to inkjet clogging. Sure, some cases will have freakish "it simply doesn't work" factors. But I bet most other cases are related to user conditions.

And maybe if both links didn't require logins, I'd have more context.

I guess for some, the clogging risk is acceptable. As are pizza wheel marks. As is a poorly written manual. As is poor 3rd party paper support. Blah, blah, blah. The water isn't safe anywhere - for any brand. I don't think it will be for years. I hope I'm wrong. But I'm having fun in the meantime, knowing that technology is still developing (much like the megapixel wars and jumping from camera to camera these days).

To me, jumping into inkjet printing is an adventure. There is a lot to learn, control and master. You just have to be prepared to learn how to swim. A pain in the@ss at times and some lemons  are floating around, of course!! The only easy path in inkjet printing right now is to pay someone else to make your prints. Or win the inkjet lottery and become one of the rare few who seem to have zero problems.

People shouldn't be so scared of inkjet printing by "it's not safe" posts. Because I see that a lot. It's a lot of fun, and you're not likely to get a printer that simply doesn't work - with any brand - if you're willing to learn how to use the technology. And if you do get a lemon, you have to understand the current state of things before you buy - and be willing to just keep swimming.

I may be overreacting here, admittedly, but I see too many people commenting on how scared or unsure they are about buying an inkjet printer. I agree its necessary to share the flaws we encounter ... I just never see anyone posting the tempered "hey, the waters aren't terribly calm but are really OK" post.

Jesse <--- happily swimming around in 7880 prints (but have also wanted to toss older Epsons into a large lake)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:43:43 AM by JesseSpeer » Logged
Doombrain
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2007, 10:56:14 AM »
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I'm running four x880 and five x800 epsons and i've never had any problems with the heads in them.
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claskin
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2007, 12:10:58 PM »
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The poster on OPF (provided you sign up) has considerable credibility in my eyes.  He is a long
--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just an FYI John. I have even registered on that forum but still am told I do not have privileges to access that page. I am working with it.
Carl
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Carl Laskin
John Hollenberg
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2007, 12:49:43 PM »
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Just an FYI John. I have even registered on that forum but still am told I do not have privileges to access that page. I am working with it.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Send a PM to Asher Kelman, who runs the forums.  Very strange, link works fine for me (although you do have to be registered).

You can also go to the Open Photography Forums:

[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/index.php]http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/index.php[/url]

and find the thread in the Printers forum.

--John
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 02:58:18 PM »
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Edit:  We don't have any reports of clogging on the iPF printer Wiki (except for a few reports of printheads that went bad and were replaced by Canon), so that is a significant difference from Epsons.

--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just curious how you confirm that with a Canon - doesn't a Canon just hide clogging by remapping to another nozzle?  Can you confirm that all 30720 nozzles are still functioning with 0 clogs?

I have both, and like both.  A friend has had a 9880 for over 4 weeks with 0 clogs, my 11880 over 2 months with one minor clog.  While the post you refer to may be "credible" and I feel bad for his experience, that doesn't really mean this is normal and common place does it?  There are things that can aggravate clogging on an Epson, such as using a paper type that isn't set up for the thickness of the paper actually being printed.  Also, not shutting the printer down when not using it - even overnight -  will aggravate clogging.

I suppose it is even possible his printer is defective like those Canon's you mentioned?

I think it's a stretch to use this one experience as an indicator that nothing has changed ... to me the jury is still out, but from where I sit things have improved.  I'm just not sure how much yet.
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Farmer
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 05:19:31 PM »
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You're correct, Wayne, that the Canon uses remapping to deal with clogs.  Not that this is a bad solution (users obviously love it), but eventually you run out of nozzles.  Then, it's a replacable head so if it has enough remap space within the expected life all is good.  You just have to factor in the replacement cost.

I ran off 36 meters of canvas yesterday on an 11880 (3 rolls) without skipping a beat.  It hadn't been used for about a week and was left on, just sitting in an air conditioned office.  It ran some cleaning cycles, but 30 images came out perfectly.

Whether it's Epson, Canon or HP - the internet attracts people complaining (it's a place to voice their concerns and seek help).  Very few people take the time to post that they're having no problems.  If Canon's approach puts pressure on Epson to do better with clogging and cleaning then that's fantastic.

The 11880 is obviously the next evolution in heads for Epson.  The multiple cleaning modes allowing you to restrict it to 1 or 2 channels (mostly 2, except for PK which can be done by itself) when cleaning, for example, and the AID technology that detects blocked nozzles as they occur.  All good stuff.  If the Canon lasts its life doing its remapping then that's a winner of a solution, too.  HP seems to be doing fine in that regard as well.

From a business perspective you need to look at the cost (dollars and time) of each solution and then weight that against the other options, features, quality etc.

If anyone is having a chronic blocking/clogging problem then either their printer is out of spec or they're doing something to induce it.  If you're confident you're not doing anything to cause it, then get the manufacturer to check it under warranty and sort it.
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 05:59:58 PM »
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Just curious how you confirm that with a Canon - doesn't a Canon just hide clogging by remapping to another nozzle?  Can you confirm that all 30720 nozzles are still functioning with 0 clogs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=162361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

By "no clogs" I mean that any clogged nozzles are re-mapped so that you don't see the effect of the clogs.  My guess is that some of the nozzles are almost certainly clogged, but the compensation in the firmware takes care of this.  On the iPF5000, I haven't ever made a print that was obviously bad due to clogged nozzles.  Can't say the same for the Epsons I have owned.

By the way, my post was not meant to start a bunch of arguing over brands.  This was the first report I had seen of significant clogging problems with the X880 generation of printers and I thought others might be interested.  The "just when you thought it was safe" was more a personal reaction, as it reminded me of clogging problems I have had and with my own previous bad experiences was enough to turn me away from the 7880.  Obviously a lot of other people have had good experiences with Epson printers.

--John
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Farmer
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 06:10:52 PM »
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John - is there any way for you to interrogate the printer to find out how many spare nozzles are left?  I'm hoping that users will find that they never run out, but it would be interesting to know the remap rate.

I think it's a good point you raise that because of the remapping you haven't had any spoiled prints.  That's the point of the new technology in the 11880 so this certainly seems to be a case of the competition bringing improvements.
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 06:50:43 PM »
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John - is there any way for you to interrogate the printer to find out how many spare nozzles are left?  I'm hoping that users will find that they never run out, but it would be interesting to know the remap rate.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good question.  As far as I can determine, that information is not even available in the Service Menu.  I poked around in there for a bit and also looked through the iPF5000 service manual (a PDF of which was anonymously donated to the Wiki) and couldn't find anything.  You can look at the Service Manual yourself if you like:

[a href=\"http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/iPF5000+Service+Manual]http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/iPF5000+Service+Manual[/url]

--John
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