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Author Topic: Color in Digital Capture  (Read 10007 times)
pfigen
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 09:38:44 PM »
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Still not getting how you're able to convert to your i1 camera profile, which is exactly the same as the Profilemaker ones I'm able to build. That's what you said you were doing in your original post, but those profiles only show up in Assign, not in Convert to Profile. Is this something you've done or is this in theory only?
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2008, 09:45:08 PM »
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I've done it, but it was quite a while ago. I'm currently at Walter Reed Army Medical Center getting some medical treatment, and my scanner and all of my computers and file servers (except my laptop) are in storage either in California or Germany and so I can't access them any time soon. I don't remember the created profiles being any more limited than the standard profiles like sRGB, ProPhoto, etc.
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pfigen
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 09:52:23 PM »
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Well, I can tell you without a doubt that they are not the same. Workiing space profiles are simple matrix based (with Joe Holmes' table based exception) but all of the scanner and camera profiles are table based, but because they're designed only for converting to a working space, the reverse lookup tables are omitted. There may be exceptions to that rule with other brands of software, but this is definitely the case with all of the Gretag input profiles I've made in the last several years.
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 10:07:32 PM »
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Now that I think of it, I may have used a different software package to make the profiles. It was a few years ago, and I haven't messed with film in a long time and haven't had occasion to do this sort of thing. If you can find a profiling package that creates the reverse lookup tables in its profiles, my technique will work. Is there any way to force Eye-One or Profile Maker to add them in? My spectro is in Germany right now, so I can't get into the program to look.
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pfigen
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 11:58:36 PM »
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I have three applications for input profiles and can check the other two when I'm in the studio. We'll see if ScanOpen or CompassProfile are any different. I do remember that Gretag v4 scanner profiles actually had a usable Perceptual table which is not present on the current version.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2008, 01:03:23 PM »
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The two Epson 4870 scanner profiles-reflective and tansmissive part of the scanner driver install are really odd and strange. I can both assign and convert to these profiles. Converting from a matrix working space to one of these darkens the image as if applying a linear RAW response.

They must be very wide gamut profiles because if I assign them to a JoRGB converted gamma encoded image it oversaturates and of course overly brightens it.

Their size is 200K and made by Seiko. Anyway I never can use them because assigning to a RAW scan produces god awful previews.
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jjj
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2008, 02:00:13 PM »
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Dan has some very strange notions about color management that are at odds with common sense and the consensus of color management experts. He doesn't beleive in the value of editing in 16-bit mode. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I said, he's not well thought of in these parts and if he does dismiss 16bit editing for retaining maximum quality, he is indeed a bit of a numpty.

But having said that, I don't think 16bit is the only road to true image salvation, as one can produce great images using 8bit, using film or by even by using a piece of charcoal on paper if you know what you are doing. Part of the 'niceness' of film comes from it's limitations, so possibly, by using digital and maximising the theoretical quality is exactly the opposite of what you want.
The simplest way to get film like images out of a Canon 5D is to use picture styles with a few tweaks. The colours are usually slightly better [IMHO] from the JPEGs than from the RAWs going through ACR/LR even with calibration. But the JPEGs aren't so good if you want to tweak the images, esp colour correction. I gather that you get the nice colours by using Canon's DPP RAW processing, but I've never liked the workflow with DPP.
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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2008, 02:20:58 PM »
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In Film [moving pictures, not the capture medium] with post production in the grading suite, one does many of the things stills photographers do with LR/PS etc. And one of the things DoPs like to do is to crush the blacks, whether on film with the timing, with digital intermediaries, or with the digital footage. Crushing the Blacks is where you make the blacks, errr.. blacker, reducing shadow detail [ collective gasp of horror from LL pixel peepers   ].
Why? Because it looks nice.  
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2008, 06:41:37 PM »
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Please do not get me wrong here, I am not trying to compare film vs. digital or prove that one or other is better, I know they are different. I much like the medium format digital captures also. Although... I feel they lack in color. So, I am keen to improve my skills of color in processing. I currently use SilkyPix, Camera Raw & Photoshop CS3, and I do not think it is as simple as a saturation boost... I need much more advanced and appealing to my aesthetic eye.

Please point me to any advise or sources to improve on color in my digital captures to very pleasantly and appealing appoach... or to even exceed that of Fuji Slides

Thanks!   

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is normal for raw captures to often appear lacking in "punch"; however the colour depth is often there for the asking. The Vibrance and Clarity tools in Camera Raw 4.1/2/3 and judicious use of the Parametric Tone Curve as well as selected colour groups in the HSL tab can most often and most likely give you pretty much the kind of living colour you would like to have. Within Photoshop, and without converting between colour spaces, there are numeous techniques for further enhancing colours. Much of the information about how to do this is available free on the internet - in fact the resources are too numerous to call to mind here, but a Google search with some well-chosen keywords will bring up more than you probably want to read. Buying books for this may not be necessary.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2008, 04:03:52 AM »
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Hi Stamper

You may have said the magic words: "Color Correction".

That book sounds very good but from 2002 and for Photoshop 7.0. Although basics perhaps are same, is it still very applicable to CS3?

I also found following titles:

Digital Color Correction
by Pete Rivard March 2006

Color Correction For Digital Photographers Only
by Ted Padova, Don Mason June 2006

Thanks for advise.

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Some subjects are not directly linked to any specific version The information in this book could be used by someone using CS3 The problem with new books are they sometimes aren't backwards compatible Dan M's books can be used by anyone with CS3 Channel Chops springs to mind The new features of the latest version are mostly a different way of doing something that can be easily done by earlier versions For instance the shadow & highlight tool is a substitute for curves and masks which a lot of people think is not as good as curves Don't get caught up with the hype of the latest version I know a professional well regarded and successful photographer who has won awards who still uses version 5.5

A blurb in respect to Digital Color Correction

Digital Color Correction outlines a platform-independent, cross-disciplinary system for producing the best possible color images for print and the Web. One of the keys to professional success is developing transferable skills that outlast the software upgrade cycle. This is particularly true when it comes to the color reproduction process.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 04:08:39 AM by stamper » Logged

Mark D Segal
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2008, 07:36:24 AM »
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I agree with Stamper that Michael Kieran's book is good and its content is valid for everything it teaches using any version of Photoshop from the time it was published, and some time before that.

Newer books are backwards compatible to previous versions of Photoshop except for the content that explains the use of new features which weren't available when the book was written.

As successive versions of Photoshop bring new and improved ways of editing images, there are older techniques which become replaced with better and easier ways of doing essentially the same thing - and often more.

While the really classic titles survive successve versions of Photoshop, you do sometimes need the newer books to get on top of the new features in the new versions. But, as I mentioned yesterday, there is also a plethora of free resources on the internet.

As a footnote, I really like the way Ben WIllmore handled the process of up-grading books with versions of Photoshop. Since his CS Studio Techniques book, he authored two slim up-date books at much lower price targeted specifically on the new features of CS2 and CS3. He also wrote a CS3 version of Studio Techniques for those who want everything under one roof, but the slender up-grade approach remains most welcome. By the way, for Anders, with a specific interest in more effective color work, Ben also authored a set of two DVDs called "Mastering Color" published by KW Computer Training, available through NAPP (National Association of Photoshop Professionals), at NAPP. Highly recommended for your purposes.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
TimothyFarrar
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2008, 10:42:37 AM »
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Only in the RAW capture data. Once you demosaic the RAW or convert the scan data to a standard RGB space (all of which are non-linear), digital color is whatever the profile in the RAW converter or scanner software makes it. So if you follow the procedure I outlined above, you can make any digital camera output Velvia color within the measurement accuracy of your spectrophotometer as long as the digital exposure is not clipped.

Linear/non-linear only affects how you expose for optimal image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting technique. Bundle a bunch of film profiles in a package and you might have a good product there to sell when you get back from the service!

However I believe probably the one single most desired film characteristic for digital shooters is the non-clipping highlights (the tonal response of the knee). As you said your technique is limited to digital files which don't clip.

So to really make use of your idea you would want to build an undeveloped linear extended dynamic range negative from a bracketed series of digital shots and then somehow apply the profile. Of course at this point with all the dynamic range the shot will be underexposed so you will still need to develop the shot in the new "film" colorspace. I wonder how that would work.

Anyway I've got a bunch of undeveloped linear digital negatives with about 10-14 stops of dynamic range, so you or someone else has a profile build using the technique you posted, I would be happy to try it out and post the results in this forum!
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Timothy Farrar
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sojournerphoto
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2008, 03:04:43 PM »
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Interesting technique. Bundle a bunch of film profiles in a package and you might have a good product there to sell when you get back from the service!

However I believe probably the one single most desired film characteristic for digital shooters is the non-clipping highlights (the tonal response of the knee). As you said your technique is limited to digital files which don't clip.

So to really make use of your idea you would want to build an undeveloped linear extended dynamic range negative from a bracketed series of digital shots and then somehow apply the profile. Of course at this point with all the dynamic range the shot will be underexposed so you will still need to develop the shot in the new "film" colorspace. I wonder how that would work.

Anyway I've got a bunch of undeveloped linear digital negatives with about 10-14 stops of dynamic range, so you or someone else has a profile build using the technique you posted, I would be happy to try it out and post the results in this forum!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Somewhat ironically given my earlier post, last night I used the DXo film pack plug-in to 'velviaise' part of a panorama I shot in the summer. I finished up running the filmpack filter (without grain - I just wanted the colour rendering) on a duplicate layer and then masking off the sjy as the filter turned the blues to cyan. I might post a copy in the forum later - if I dare:)

But, you could convert and HDR your undeveloped digital negs, tone map and convert to 16 bit and then run the DXo filmpack photoshop plugin on the output. That might work well for what you are talking about.

Mike
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2008, 08:08:09 PM »
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I've been playing around for a while coming up with my own technique for making digital look like film from examining color palettes of many film brand scan samples over at Les Sarile's site.

It's not made to look professional grade but typical of what most of us get at minilabs and from auto settings on consumer grade flatbeds. It might have its own novel charm some day, but I had an itch and had to scratch and came up with what I think film looks like from a sort of trailer dweller's perspective.

The sample at the bottom uses a multicolored gradient map made up of four different colors from maroon black, to cobalt blue mids to blue/violet quartertone to cream colored highlite taken from Les Sarile's film scan samples of desert landscapes. You can add more or other colors to this gradient map within the custom gradient dialog box and get a live preview as it maps to each tonal region adjusting the sliders on a layer set to Soft Light over the original digital capture.

Can anyone identify the film brand? I just remember this is how my family photos would always come back from the lab during the '70's into the '90's.

There's brief instructions at the bottom on how to do it.[attachment=4556:attachment]
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2008, 01:41:52 AM »
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What you consider the look of film from what you've posted seems to not only involve increasing saturation but also injecting a color crossover effect between highlite white balance and shadow neutrality where whites are warmish and shadows are coolish. Pick complementary colors like yellowish whites and purplish shadows or orangish whites and bluish shadows.

This is an old renaissance master painter eyebrain trick to make an image "Pop". Study Maxfield Parish paintings to get an idea where film manufacturers came up with their film color palette.

Have you tried just using curves to do this in RGB. Working in Lab would be quite difficult adding apposing highlite/shadow color temps because the center of the curves controls neutrality for both of these regions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think this is one very important aspect;

Indeed it is something I normally use in SilkyPix, and indeed it causes some "Pop". In SilkyPix, in addition to Color Tempearture and Color Deflection (Tint) sliders there is also a slider for Dark Adjustment of shadows, precisely I frequent slide this one more from the green towards purplish as you imply. Its purpose is perhaps more to correct the dark zones of the scene for they should have slight different tone than permitted by setting WB globally, but I do use it also for the extra "Pop" I see.

Is there something like this that can be done in Camera RAW/Photoshop?? Can this be done with curves and how? Or is there some plug in?

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 01:49:40 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
Anders_HK
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2008, 02:18:56 AM »
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Some subjects are not directly linked to any specific version The information in this book could be used by someone using CS3 The problem with new books are they sometimes aren't backwards compatible Dan M's books can be used by anyone with CS3 Channel Chops springs to mind The new features of the latest version are mostly a different way of doing something that can be easily done by earlier versions For instance the shadow & highlight tool is a substitute for curves and masks which a lot of people think is not as good as curves Don't get caught up with the hype of the latest version I know a professional well regarded and successful photographer who has won awards who still uses version 5.5

A blurb in respect to Digital Color Correction

Digital Color Correction outlines a platform-independent, cross-disciplinary system for producing the best possible color images for print and the Web. One of the keys to professional success is developing transferable skills that outlast the software upgrade cycle. This is particularly true when it comes to the color reproduction process.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stamper, your advises make perfect sense. I think I will follow and get that book and maybe one more. Also MarkDS's advise on Ben Willmore's DVD sounds good. But... first I better finish my two new books on Photoshop    I have been using Photoshop only little in past, but this time I am diving deep and plan to see what I can accomplish with it on my posted subject.

Much thanks also to all other posts here. Many good replies. Jjj;s of increasing black point is also good one a'la velvia... same time now we often want more details... difficult   + same time all makes me think what should achieve... perhaps not good to be too much stuck in computer pixel peeping!  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 04:12:18 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2008, 10:11:20 AM »
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I think this is one very important aspect;

Indeed it is something I normally use in SilkyPix, and indeed it causes some "Pop". In SilkyPix, in addition to Color Tempearture and Color Deflection (Tint) sliders there is also a slider for Dark Adjustment of shadows, precisely I frequent slide this one more from the green towards purplish as you imply. Its purpose is perhaps more to correct the dark zones of the scene for they should have slight different tone than permitted by setting WB globally, but I do use it also for the extra "Pop" I see.

Is there something like this that can be done in Camera RAW/Photoshop?? Can this be done with curves and how? Or is there some plug in?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Anders,

You have all of this control and more in Camera Raw 4.x. or in Lightroom. If you have CS3, you have Camera Raw 4.0. Up-date it to 4.3 (free) and play with it. If you want specific guidance on how to use it to full effect I highly recommend Jeff Schewe and Bruce Frasers's new book "Real World Camera Raw.."
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
TimothyFarrar
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« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2008, 10:54:03 AM »
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But, you could convert and HDR your undeveloped digital negs, tone map and convert to 16 bit and then run [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are thinking about any kind of HDR tone mapping or any localized HDR methods like PS's contrast adaption, then you are completely missing what I was talking about. Those HDR operations change the image in very unnatural ways, basically applying a tone curve which varies across the image and locally adapts to how the tonal distribution changes across the image. Something very un-film like!

My concept is to build a digital negative which simulates a large enough range of the actual light reaching the camera (without any highlight clipping or highlight non-linearities or noise in shadows) such that when you apply a film curve to the image that you have enough range to correctly handle the gradual highlight falloff in the typical film response to light. Also getting back to the primary topic, given this method you would also have enough range to handle simulation of film like saturation as well.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 10:57:31 AM by TimothyFarrar » Logged

Timothy Farrar
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2008, 04:56:44 PM »
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.... Film is sort of magic   , and with it to me one special aspect: the Colors.

Please point me to any advise or sources to improve on color in my digital captures to very pleasantly and appealing appoach... or to even exceed that of Fuji Slides
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=164187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It’s unlikely that ‘digital film look’ could be based on a fix response like with classic film. At least, the main tone curve – translating from ‘native Raw’ to a pleasing tonality on screen – might have to be scene adaptive i.e. considering the scene dyn. range vs output.

Nonetheless, some tweaks for a pleasing rendition of memory colors - i.e. a deep blue sky, or, less vibrant but warmer green grass – are supposed to be more generally valid.

If you have an evening time, you might find some interesting readings and further links by google:
Hunt "preferred reproduction" "blue sky"

DPL

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