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Author Topic: Z3100 or Epson 4880/7880  (Read 15517 times)
Hellstan
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« on: January 30, 2008, 12:41:54 PM »
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This is my first post here.

I consider purchasing a Z3100. HP has a very good price for it in France this month (30% rebate).
First, I was considering 4880, but now I'm thinking bigger.

Apart some of you here who were very unhappy with paper feeding issues (known issue,which HP should address with a firmware update) and HP support problems (uncompetent people, problem I've had with lesser printer from HP), it seems Z3100 is far better for B/W print and ink management, consuming less ink per print and avoiding any clogging.

Would some of you give me some more insight on their usage (I've read many threads here on subject, but would like to know more) ?

I will have to print A4 to A1 for clients/display/shows etc.

Thanks to all
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dseelig
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 01:07:03 PM »
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I just went through the same process you are in . I did not buy an epson because of big ink consumption, having to swap inks for glosssy and matte papers. HP at least in the us is now much better with customer support. Canon was really my other choice. I became convinced that hp for me would be a better choice . Better blacks higher d max. I sell some concert photos, blacks in the back ground are important tom e . I have huge amount of B& w negs . the paper handling issues are mostly with the new bryata papers and they are so delicate in general that I do not want to deal much with them at this point. Also the hp has the longest archival life span with there inks. Also the ink is cheaper here in the us then canon. I live close to the bone so all of these issues mean a lot to me. David PS All of these printers now are so good it is not funny .
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 02:17:04 PM by dseelig » Logged
Hellstan
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 01:51:02 PM »
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I just went through the same process you are in . I did not buy an epson because of big ink consumption, having to swap inks for glosssy and matte papers. HP at least in the us is now much better with customer support. Canon was really my other choice. I became convinced that hp for me would be a better choice . Better blacks higher d max. I sell some concert photos, blacks in the back ground are important tom e . I have huge amount of B& w negs . the paper handling issues are mostly with the new bryata papers and they are so delicate in general that I do not want to deal much with them at this point. Aslo the hp has the longest archival life span with there inks. Also the ink is cheaper here in the us then canon. I live close to the bone so all of these issues mena alot to me. David PS All of these printers now are so good it is not funny .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171029\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thank you David for your remarks
It really seems HP B/W are better.
I also have 10 000 B/W + negs waiting
for some works and prints.
My only issue would be the sheet loading.
My rep in France (a renowned specialist in
graphics) tells me HP should revise firmware
for this.
And, finally, I learnt that Magnum is equipped with Z…
;-))
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William Morse
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 02:06:04 PM »
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I am quite happy with the Z, after many years printing w/ Epsons and QTR for B&W. I scan all my own film with a drum scannner (Howtek 6500 w/ DPL), and great B&W output on both matte and glossy papers is very important to me. My customers have been happy with the output as well  

Wow, 10K negs! I also have 1000's including my own and my Grandfather's 100 year old film!

Bill

Quote
Thank you David for your remarks
It really seems HP B/W are better.
I also have 10 000 B/W + negs waiting
for some works and prints.
My only issue would be the sheet loading.
My rep in France (a renowned specialist in
graphics) tells me HP should revise firmware
for this.
And, finally, I learnt that Magnum is equipped with Z…
;-))
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171042\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Wm. Morse Editions
A Fine-Art Digital Printmaking Studio
Photography, Limited Editions, Film Drum Scanning
Restored Early 20th Century Photos of China
www.MorseEditions.com
titusbear
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 02:10:06 PM »
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And, finally, I learnt that Magnum is equipped with Z…
;-))


and the Louvre, and other museums /artist  have selected Epson...

As earlier in the post - they'll all fine machines - each with their own strengths and foibles.
I personally have Epson printers because of their piezo head technology (lack of heat bias affecting inks/solutions).  Once I can figure out how to get a service manual for a 4800 /4880 - I can begin experimenting with solutions other than 'inks'...

an engineer /scientist /artist  
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Hellstan
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 02:11:09 PM »
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I am quite happy with the Z, after many years printing w/ Epsons and QTR for B&W. I scan all my own film with a drum scannner (Howtek 6500 w/ DPL), and great B&W output on both matte and glossy papers is very important to me. My customers have been happy with the output as well   

Wow, 10K negs! I also have 1000's including my own and my Grandfather's 100 year old film!

Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

William,
10 000 strips, not 10 K films
So it's only about 3000 films, really ;-)
Well, I shoot seriously since only two years,
but I shot a lot… and decided to open a fine art portrait boutique at home.
Czechcolovaquian custom : open house (see Lou Reed & John Cale for this…)
Every beautiful people in town passes by and I shoot them. Sort of mini-court painter mood.
Thank you a lot for your reply.
You should show us more on your website, I'm eager to see what you get.
Johan
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 04:28:06 PM by Hellstan » Logged

Hellstan
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 02:13:48 PM »
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And, finally, I learnt that Magnum is equipped with Z…
;-))
and the Louvre, and other museums /artist  have selected Epson...

As earlier in the post - they'll all fine machines - each with their own strengths and foibles.
I personally have Epson printers because of their piezo head technology (lack of heat bias affecting inks/solutions).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course, titus.
Magnum reference was kind of a joke — not a snub.  
Well, the Louvre publishes less photos than Magnum though…
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kaelaria
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 04:48:46 PM »
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I'm on the same fence - I have to decide by tomorrow, as the rebates are ending.
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Hellstan
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 04:52:56 PM »
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I'm on the same fence - I have to decide by tomorrow, as the rebates are ending.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ha-ha, let's open a club.
Well, frankly, after discussing with seelig here, neil snape in Paris, and reading M. Reichmann's review, I'm about to plunge.
My concern, apart the tag price, is the bulk. I'll have to move my desk around and push the walls a bit.
Then, it's a fact that I'm sick to show pics on screen to people. An image belongs to paper print.
When you show a (large) print to someone, they usually say : Wow…
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 04:53:22 PM by Hellstan » Logged

titusbear
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 05:11:06 PM »
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When you show a (large) print to someone, they usually say : Wow…
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]


So it's come down to the old 'size is everything' argument - so does that mean that the Z is the equivalent of the Hummer or Porsche of printers?

Guess I'm in the same class a Vermeer ( and his small paintings) - e/tb and my 'volvo' 4880.......
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Hellstan
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 05:18:19 PM »
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Quote from: titusbear,Jan 31 2008, 12:11 AM
When you show a (large) print to someone, they usually say : Wow…
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So it's come down to the old 'size is everything' argument - so does that mean that the Z is the equivalent of the Hummer or Porsche of printers?

Guess I'm in the same class a Vermeer ( and his small paintings) - e/tb and my 'volvo' 4880.......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

I don't know about Porsche, I drive an old Jaguar I paid (much) less than a new Volvo (or even used Volvo)  
I just wished to say that people are too much used to see (and show) pics on screen, which is the same as seeing movies on TV and not on silver screen, or eating de-frozen food. Not the real
flavor.
When I said
Quote
(large) print [unquote], you noticed large was in parenthesis.  

PS
BTW you really were in the same class as Vermeer ? How was he ? Really interesting guy, I heard… Especially with window lightings, they say…
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 05:21:15 PM by Hellstan » Logged

kaelaria
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »
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It's not all in the size for me - just looking at an 11x14 print - the detail lost on screen is astounding.  It's always a plesant surprise when my prints come back for the first time, to see what they actually look like
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Hellstan
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 05:26:27 PM »
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It's not all in the size for me - just looking at an 11x14 print - the detail lost on screen is astounding.  It's always a plesant surprise when my prints come back for the first time, to see what they actually look like
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I couldn't agree more…
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titusbear
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 05:30:34 PM »
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BTW you really were in the same class as Vermeer ? How was he ? Really interesting guy, I heard…


yeah..... Fred was the class cut-up...   one day, during perspective class he appeared with a horrible hangover - his drawings that day looked more like Kandinsky than his usual stuff.  The prof always told him - 'bigger, bigger...' but he would rather spend the money on wine than larger canvases.

Good luck with you new printer - no matter what the make /model.  Never be afraid to push the envelope  and/or experiment - that's what art and creativity is all about.
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Hellstan
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2008, 05:36:32 PM »
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his drawings that day looked more like Kandinsky than his usual stuff.  The prof always told him - 'bigger, bigger...' but he would rather spend the money on wine than larger canvases.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I know, saddly, Verm' and Kandink' never got along. Wonder why, though…

Anyway, titus, thanks for your kind encouragement. I'll try to find time to push farther away.

Seriously, being more down to earth, I wonder what is the cost per prints/formats with the Z.
I have two pro labs just behind my place, one is film-B/W only, the other is film-digital colour.
They charge from around 3 to 15 (even 20) euros depending of work, paper, format. Normally,
after a few hundred prints (300 ?), it's a wrap.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 05:43:26 PM by Hellstan » Logged

Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2008, 08:03:06 PM »
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Yes, I know, saddly, Verm' and Kandink' never got along. Wonder why, though…

Anyway, titus, thanks for your kind encouragement. I'll try to find time to push farther away.

Seriously, being more down to earth, I wonder what is the cost per prints/formats with the Z.
I have two pro labs just behind my place, one is film-B/W only, the other is film-digital colour.
They charge from around 3 to 15 (even 20) euros depending of work, paper, format. Normally,
after a few hundred prints (300 ?), it's a wrap.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One of the nicer features of the Z3100's slightly squirrely driver is a "job accounting" tab that tells you exactly how much ink you used for each print or job. For my work this generally works out to be about 25 ml of ink per square meter; at current prices this means about $14 (U.S.) per square meter, or about $11.50 if you buy "twin-packs". Add the cost of your favorite paper, and that's your material cost.

Once you add the cost of the printer itself, and the time it takes to learn how to use it effectively, I figure it's probably a toss up whether you save money compared to having your bigger prints made by a service bureau. On the other hand, being able to make a test print, analyze it for problems, correct the image file and then run off a perfect print, all in just minutes, is wonderful.

And if black & white is a big part of your work, the Z is as good as it gets without resorting to third-party custom inksets and drivers. Its D-max on both matte and photo papers is as black as black can be, and the driver's handling of toning options for monochrome is a model of clarity and flexibility.
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Hellstan
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 02:27:55 AM »
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One of the nicer features of the Z3100's slightly squirrely driver is a "job accounting" tab that tells you exactly how much ink you used for each print or job. For my work this generally works out to be about 25 ml of ink per square meter; at current prices this means about $14 (U.S.) per square meter, or about $11.50 if you buy "twin-packs". Add the cost of your favorite paper, and that's your material cost.

Once you add the cost of the printer itself, and the time it takes to learn how to use it effectively, I figure it's probably a toss up whether you save money compared to having your bigger prints made by a service bureau. On the other hand, being able to make a test print, analyze it for problems, correct the image file and then run off a perfect print, all in just minutes, is wonderful.

And if black & white is a big part of your work, the Z is as good as it gets without resorting to third-party custom inksets and drivers. Its D-max on both matte and photo papers is as black as black can be, and the driver's handling of toning options for monochrome is a model of clarity and flexibility.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Geoff,
I just wonder if, printing as I will, mostly A4 and A3, and less often A2 and plus, if I'm not "overshooting" with that machine.
But it's true I will do a lot of B/W with it.
My other option was the 4880, with less quality in B/W and that clogging matter that bothers, in case the machine remains idle for a week or so. Users who are not clogging are, it seems, big users running it all day.
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marty m
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 03:01:33 AM »
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All of these issues were covered only last week in this thread:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....opic=22705&st=0
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Hellstan
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 03:39:48 AM »
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All of these issues were covered only last week in this thread:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....opic=22705&st=0
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not exactly, Marty, because cost usage matters were not addressed.
In fact, after checking my pro lab fares, a 30/40 is around 30 euros
— without any trial and error really possible.
This month, I have around 60 prints to do. So the math is rapidly done.
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Hellstan
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 06:07:04 AM »
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One of the nicer features of the Z3100's slightly squirrely driver is a "job accounting" tab that tells you exactly how much ink you used for each print or job. For my work this generally works out to be about 25 ml of ink per square meter; at current prices this means about $14 (U.S.) per square meter, or about $11.50 if you buy "twin-packs". Add the cost of your favorite paper, and that's your material cost.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mean you have to change a whole bunch of cartridges every 10 square meters (around),
meaning for about thirty 30/40 cm prints ? This is much more expensive than I thought.  
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