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Author Topic: Swimwear Shoot with Hasselblad H3D II  (Read 42908 times)
TechTalk
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« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2008, 02:03:00 AM »
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You know, jjj, I started to write that I....respectfully....disagree. But upon further consideration, I'm gonna give you a point. File>import seems to have a certain level of acceptance in our industry. It is by no means universal, though. On that level, anything other would appear alien I suppose. There is a File>import in Phocus, but thus far, it has been greyed out in my use of the program. Perhaps someone has seen it enabled? Or maybe File>import is in place, awaiting activation in Phocus 1.1 for some reason.

I'm going to open my perspective and say that seeing files on a cf card in the program show up and not being able to do anything with them without reading the manual has....some merit. Is it a sin? I don't know. Maybe it could be more intuitive.  But now that you know, I don't see the big deal. I don't feel it means the program is poorly thought out - hardly the case. And, it's version 1.0. It's a start, and I feel it's a very good start. Some pretty considerable programs that are now considered smooth running machines fared about the same on V1.0 releases.

And yes, I did bother to read your post. Since the item you site is not actually missing from the manual, I think it's logical to presume you haven't read it.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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The fine distinction that jjj is attempting to make is that the manual details the importing of 3FR files from the original storage device (CF card or Image Bank) into Phocus, but does not specify that 3FR files simply copied to the hard drive also need to be imported into Phocus. To quote jjj... "and as that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect] from an card/camera/imagebank and does not mention anything about importing images already on your computer, it simply illustrates my point".

This is what the manual states in big bold type under the even bigger and bolder header title of IMPORTING CAPTURES... "Imported captures appear in the Thumbnail Browser as 3FR files for browsing. Selected files are then converted and stored as 3F files for editing and export." This is all contained in the large header for the page and is followed in the body with..."To import captures from a camera / CF card reader / ImageBank-II, proceed as follows:".

Since hard drive is not in the list, jjj assumes that for some reason the 3FR files that were copied over to the hard drive from the CF card no longer need to be imported into Phocus. He tries to make this appear logical with "that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect]". The only problem is there is absolutely no logic whatever to his assertion or assumption. Let me explain: 1) Why do you need to "import" "files to your machine" when  they have already been copied from the CF card to the hard drive? They don't need to be "imported" to your hard drive if they are already there. So... 2) The Phocus manual is referring to importing compressed 3FR files into Phocus for editing as uncompressed 3F files. No special software is required to copy image files or any other document files to a hard drive. That is an operating system function and anyone with passing familiarity with using a computer knows this. But...3) jjj insists that this "is what you would expect." Well no, I don't think this is what would be expected and I'm surprised that jjj wants us to believe that is what he assumed. Because... 4) jjj is a fan of Lightroom. Lightroom also has an import function. It is used to import images into Lightroom--not to import images to the hard drive. The Lightroom manual chapter on importing starts with "Importing photos into the Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom™ library is the first step in working with your photos. You can import photos directly from a camera, memory card reader, or other storage device." So... 5) What is the basis for jjj to claim "that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect]"? The manual says "Phocus will import the selected files and process them into 3F files (thumbnails now lose the 3FR icon), automatically storing them in the selected folder" and "Imported captures appear in the Thumbnail Browser as 3FR files for browsing. Selected files are then converted and stored as 3F files for editing and export". Seems pretty clear to me that "import" in Phocus or Lightroom refer to importing images into the program and not the copying of images to the hard drive.

I really don't have any more time available for this now. I don't mind discussing and debating at some length with people that have put forth some effort to learn something about the topic of discussion, but doing it with someone that has glossed over a subject can be pretty tiring and boring.


[attachment=7008:attachment]  [attachment=7010:attachment]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 02:19:56 AM by TechTalk » Logged
TechTalk
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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2008, 02:09:11 AM »
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I know that anytime anyone says anything lately about hasselblad it's considered a big knock and it comes with a lot of blowback from certain people
JR
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Not if it's accurate. If, however, statements are made that are inaccurate, misleading or debatable--a differing opinion or point of view might be put forth. It's still OK to disagree is it not?
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pprdigital
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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2008, 08:14:33 AM »
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The fine distinction that jjj is attempting to make is that the manual details the importing of 3FR files from the original storage device (CF card or Image Bank) into Phocus, but does not specify that 3FR files simply copied to the hard drive also need to be imported into Phocus. To quote jjj... "and as that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect] from an card/camera/imagebank and does not mention anything about importing images already on your computer, it simply illustrates my point".

This is what the manual states in big bold type under the even bigger and bolder header title of IMPORTING CAPTURES... "Imported captures appear in the Thumbnail Browser as 3FR files for browsing. Selected files are then converted and stored as 3F files for editing and export." This is all contained in the large header for the page and is followed in the body with..."To import captures from a camera / CF card reader / ImageBank-II, proceed as follows:".

Since hard drive is not in the list, jjj assumes that for some reason the 3FR files that were copied over to the hard drive from the CF card no longer need to be imported into Phocus. He tries to make this appear logical with "that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect]". The only problem is there is absolutely no logic whatever to his assertion or assumption. Let me explain: 1) Why do you need to "import" "files to your machine" when  they have already been copied from the CF card to the hard drive? They don't need to be "imported" to your hard drive if they are already there. So... 2) The Phocus manual is referring to importing compressed 3FR files into Phocus for editing as uncompressed 3F files. No special software is required to copy image files or any other document files to a hard drive. That is an operating system function and anyone with passing familiarity with using a computer knows this. But...3) jjj insists that this "is what you would expect." Well no, I don't think this is what would be expected and I'm surprised that jjj wants us to believe that is what he assumed. Because... 4) jjj is a fan of Lightroom. Lightroom also has an import function. It is used to import images into Lightroom--not to import images to the hard drive. The Lightroom manual chapter on importing starts with "Importing photos into the Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom™ library is the first step in working with your photos. You can import photos directly from a camera, memory card reader, or other storage device." So... 5) What is the basis for jjj to claim "that page of manual is about importing files to your machine [which is what you would expect]"? The manual says "Phocus will import the selected files and process them into 3F files (thumbnails now lose the 3FR icon), automatically storing them in the selected folder" and "Imported captures appear in the Thumbnail Browser as 3FR files for browsing. Selected files are then converted and stored as 3F files for editing and export". Seems pretty clear to me that "import" in Phocus or Lightroom refer to importing images into the program and not the copying of images to the hard drive.

I really don't have any more time available for this now. I don't mind discussing and debating at some length with people that have put forth some effort to learn something about the topic of discussion, but doing it with someone that has glossed over a subject can be pretty tiring and boring.
[attachment=7008:attachment]  [attachment=7010:attachment]
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Ah. I did miss that fine distinction. Ok, point deducted. I'm going to have to withdraw my grudging award of merit to that point, jjj.

TT - things are quite slamming lately, and I'm finding I only have time for skimming. Thanks for pointing that out.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
Dustbak
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« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2008, 09:44:02 AM »
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Now, not to be bitching about it too much but I do find it annoying 3FR files are not supported by ACR. I understand FFF files are supported by Aperture which is the only one that does support them at this time. This does mean the files from your CF card still have to go through either Phocus or Flex to be converted from 3FR to FFF only to be supported by just 1 program (besides Flex/Phocus).

Now, you could convert them from 3FR to FFF and than to DNG but in that case you loose DAC.

Only when you have your entire workflow in Flex or Phocus you have no problems/delays. I might be fine with that if I could invoke batch processing in either one with the ability to invoke PS actions or droplets.

Now, that would really make me happy.

While they are at it, maybe even the possibility to batch process towards different file formats while running several actions consecutively before saving. Preferably at the same speed Adobe does.

Getting 3FR supported with DAC in Adobe might be a sensitive issue to Hasselblad (but isn't this the reasons NDA's are used?) but at least have Phocus/Flex generate DNG's with all options or add the posibility of more integration/automation with PS.

Or am I one of the few that has been automating lots of stuff? I that case I can understand it is not interesting to implement features like that, too small of a user group/market.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:07:00 AM by Dustbak » Logged
JDG
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« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2008, 10:26:07 AM »
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Getting 3FR supported with DAC in Adobe might be a sensitive issue to Hasselblad (but isn't this the reasons NDA's are used?) but at least have Phocus/Flex generate DNG's with all options or add the posibility of more integration/automation with PS.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ultimately file support is up to Adobe.

The problem with DAC corrections and similar proprietary file information (black calibration data for phase, and I believe gain on Leaf?) is not necessarily that the manufacturers will not disclose it, but rather that Adobe does not wish to invest the development time and money for what they see as a small customer base.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:26:38 AM by JDG » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2008, 10:38:24 AM »
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Ultimately file support is up to Adobe.

The problem with DAC corrections and similar proprietary file information (black calibration data for phase, and I believe gain on Leaf?) is not necessarily that the manufacturers will not disclose it, but rather that Adobe does not wish to invest the development time and money for what they see as a small customer base.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201146\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You are right but at least with the Leaf files you can generate new .Mos files with the gain applied which can be read by ACR. I wish this could be done with Hasselblad's files as well. Generate DNG files with DAC applied for all I care. I also agree this is not the most elegant solution (which would be total support by Adobe) but it is something.

Not sure about Phase, I haven't been working long enough with Phase files.

On another level. P1 files as well as Leaf files can be read by ACR. These markets are as small as Hasselblads maybe even smaller?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:42:42 AM by Dustbak » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2008, 12:15:58 PM »
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You are right but at least with the Leaf files you can generate new .Mos files with the gain applied which can be read by ACR. I wish this could be done with Hasselblad's files as well. Generate DNG files with DAC applied for all I care. I also agree this is not the most elegant solution (which would be total support by Adobe) but it is something.

Not sure about Phase, I haven't been working long enough with Phase files.

On another level. P1 files as well as Leaf files can be read by ACR. These markets are as small as Hasselblads maybe even smaller?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't know what ACR or Lightroom reads from a Phase, a Leica or a Canon file, but it doesn't look like the maker's software, well except the leica because you never know what color that thing is going to make.

I don't understand Adobe.  They make an amazing product but how hard is it to read all the information in the file, or better yet how hard is it for the makers to make thier file format translate exactly to adobe products?  It's a heart stopper to drop a file into lightroom and see orange faces.

Sure, we can do presets, changes, etc. but that's just another step in a long line of workflow steps nobody needs.

I originally wasn't a fan of dng because as far as I could tell all dngs are not created equal, but if that's what it takes to get the native look from a file then I guess they should all go this way.

As far as aperture, well unless they've changed it 400% then forget it because I tried it and it was the most unintuitive product Apple has ever produced.

JR
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Studio12NYC
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« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2008, 02:18:58 PM »
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I second that on Aperture.  It was boxy and horrible!

Not sure who they left to design and engineer that horrible piece of software.

LR & C1 are really my only options at the moment
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samuel_js
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« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2008, 03:01:17 PM »
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I second that on Aperture.  It was boxy and horrible!

Not sure who they left to design and engineer that horrible piece of software.

LR & C1 are really my only options at the moment
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And it doesn't read Phase One raws. Just the previews.
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JTFOTO
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« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2008, 09:34:18 AM »
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Great work David!!!  I have been away for a while and it is nice to see new work.  Congrats with your career! I am sure that girl didn't cost $40k   to shoot.
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