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Author Topic: Sinar Hy6 & Leaf Afi  (Read 45059 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2008, 07:51:50 PM »
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For more detailed information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss

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BJNY,

Please note that this is not a Carl Zeiss lens, but a Zeiss Jena lens. And in fact it is not a true Zeiss Jena lens either (meaning coming from Jenoptik in Jena) but it is being made by F&H in Brunswick, marketed under the Jenoptik owned brand name Flektogon. It is not expected that Carl Zeiss lenses in AF version will be introduced for the Hy6.

EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 02:58:20 AM »
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Thierry, I contacted Niclas as you suggested, thank's. I got the price for the 80mm lens, body and film mag with adapter. 7.500 excluding taxes    Isn't that a little bit insane?

Thank's
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 03:06:16 AM by samuel_js » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 04:32:51 AM »
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Dear Samuel,

I've been in touch with Niklas and Helga, and they told me that the price given to you was an estimate (adapter for the film magazine not published yet) AND INCLUDING the 90 finder.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry, I contacted Niclas as you suggested, thank's. I got the price for the 80mm lens, body and film mag with adapter. 7.500 excluding taxes    Isn't that a little bit insane?

Thank's
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 04:50:41 PM »
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Hi Thierry, I've got the real price now   Thank's
The list you posted with the compatible lens is really helpful. Is there anything like that with compatible digital backs for the Hy6?

Thank's


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Dear Samuel,

I've been in touch with Niklas and Helga, and they told me that the price given to you was an estimate (adapter for the film magazine not published yet) AND INCLUDING the 90 finder.

Best regards,
Thierry
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thsinar
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 11:39:44 PM »
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hi Samuel,

glad that this issue is solved.

There is no special list with compatible backs for the Sinar Hy6, but I have already published here which backs fit and will work with the Sinar Hy6:

- all Sinarback eMotions: eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV, eMotion 75 & eMotion 75 LV
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 MPx multishot)
- Sinarback 54 M & MC
- Possible future Sinarbacks

as well as all Leaf backs fitting and working on the Leaf AFi.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Hi Thierry, I've got the real price now   Thank's
The list you posted with the compatible lens is really helpful. Is there anything like that with compatible digital backs for the Hy6?

Thank's
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Thierry Hagenauer
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samuel_js
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2008, 02:17:42 PM »
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Thak's Thierry. A few more questions...
Are the ROLLEI 4560 film mag and polaroid mag kompatible too? With the adapter plate?
HFT lenses? They won't fit?

Thank you so much.  
Samuel



Quote
hi Samuel,

glad that this issue is solved.

There is no special list with compatible backs for the Sinar Hy6, but I have already published here which backs fit and will work with the Sinar Hy6:

- all Sinarback eMotions: eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV, eMotion 75 & eMotion 75 LV
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 MPx multishot)
- Sinarback 54 M & MC
- Possible future Sinarbacks

as well as all Leaf backs fitting and working on the Leaf AFi.

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 02:34:47 PM by samuel_js » Logged
Carl Glover
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2008, 03:49:18 PM »
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HFT is the coating on the lens.

If you are referring to the older non-PQ/PQS lenses (for the Rollei models SLX, 6002, 6006), they should fit but the hy6 will only meter accurately with the stop-down button depressed. If you are shooting wide open this won't matter however. Aperture information won't be displayed either with these lenses.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 03:50:15 PM by Carl Glover » Logged

samuel_js
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 05:10:39 PM »
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HFT is the coating on the lens.

If you are referring to the older non-PQ/PQS lenses (for the Rollei models SLX, 6002, 6006), they should fit but the hy6 will only meter accurately with the stop-down button depressed. If you are shooting wide open this won't matter however. Aperture information won't be displayed either with these lenses.
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Thank's Carl
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thsinar
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2008, 04:23:34 AM »
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Dear Samuel,

- Yes, the 4560 film magazine for the Rolleiflex 6008 DOES and is the one fitting the Sinar Hy6 with an adapter.

- If the Polaroid magazine you mean is the one for the Rolleiflex 6008, then it won't mechanically fit with the Sinar Hy6.

- I have published a list of all (or almost all) lenses fitting the Sinar Hy6:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=23496

Among these lenses in this list, some are HFT. e.g.:

- Schneider Super-Angulon 3.5/40 HFT-PQ
- Zeiss Distagon 4/50 EL HFT PQ
- Schneider Xenotar 2.8/80 HFT-PQS
- Schneider Apo-Symmar 4/90 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Planar 2/110 HFT PQ
- Zeiss Macro Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 4/150 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250 HFT PQS
- Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenar 4/300 HFT-PQ
- Schneider Variogon 5.6/140-280 HFT-PQ

- Schneider AF S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
- Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS

as well as following new Schneider AFD:

- Schneider AFD S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
- Schneider AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT PQS

So the answer to your question is YES: as long as these lenses do have the Rolleiflex 600x mount, they will fit the Sinar Hy6, HFT or not HFT.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thak's Thierry. A few more questions...
Are the ROLLEI 4560 film mag and polaroid mag kompatible too? With the adapter plate?
HFT lenses? They won't fit?

Thank you so much.  
Samuel
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 11:56:40 PM »
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And in fact it is not a true Zeiss Jena lens either (meaning coming from Jenoptik in Jena) but it is being made by F&H in Brunswick, marketed under the Jenoptik owned brand name Flektogon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who created this lens' optical formula?
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James R Russell
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 07:59:35 PM »
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By popular demand I'll give a short recap of the article linked to. In short the article says:

- Hy6 production is now speeding up and real series production is a fact. The backlog in delivery to Sinar and Leaf will be pushed back and this also gives room for volume delivery under the Rolleiflex brandname. Soon series production of the Hy6 will be 150 pieces a month and will be increased to 200+ in the near future.

- According to F&H, demand for the Hy6 is high and therefore they will employ a total of 20 new employees so they can keep running the current two production shifts.

- According to F&H Hy6 specifications are met so tightly that back exchange between manufacturers will be no problem, without the need of in between re-adjustment. This in contrast with the new Hasselblad digital offerings that need back-body calibration.

- The 6x6 (multi-format) film back is still in prototype phase.

- Hy6 is a further development of the 6008 concept and for a vital part financed by Jenoptik. Originally Hy6 was thought as a fully open platform, but was limited in openness as a result of the deal between Jenoptik and Leaf and the taking over of Sinar by Jenoptik.

- Hy6 is for the largest part made in Germany, while electronics are designed in Switserland.
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EpD,

What I find curious is the volume.  Will 200 sales a month sustain this system

I don't know the definition of a successful medium format camera platform, though I read that the Contax 645 was produced at the rate of 2000 per month.

If that number is correct and the fact the Contax was on the market from 1999 to 2005, even on the very conservative side that would put 72,000 Contax' in the market and even at that amount of market penetration the camera line was closed down.

At 200 per month, 2,400 per year how long will it take the Hy6 to have an impact on the market.

I guess I'm not understanding something about the numbers, because I have heard forever that the Contax was closed because they didn't have a digital solution, and even though it seems devleopment costs of the HY6 was split up among various companies, how does F+H make money at 200 bodies a month.  

Does F+H make money on Sinar or Leaf backs.

(This is not an attempt to flame the camera, I'm just curious about the logic).

JR
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Kumar
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 09:15:28 PM »
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Goes to show that the professionals at F&H are true amateurs - in the good sense of the word, which means to do something for the love of it, or have a passion for it.

Cheers,
Kumar

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James, you finally start to see the miracle that F&H production is. At 200 a month the Hy6 would be more successfull than the Rolleiflex 6000 series (!), which is still sort of legendary. F&H is a very lean company where people work because of the love for the products. (F&H workers even agreed to temporarily lowering their wages when they had to make the survival jump for Hy6 development, two years ago. Until the Jenoptik funding arrived.) F&H does not make any profit on DB sales as they don't sell digital backs. They earn their money making and selling cameras and lenses. And actually when you look at the figures of the investment in the Hy6 development it is even a bigger miracle how they conceived an entire camera system with such little funding. The big CNC-controlled machine you see on one of the pictures was purchased with the money from Jenoptik. Without that machine series production of the Hy6 would be impossible.

The trade-off of this sheer love for camera-making? There's no money left to pay more than one guy in the marketing department. You read that correct: one guy. Fortunately Leaf and Sinar have more people at their respective marketing departments. But still: for the exclusivity and amazing technological modernity of this camera system you pay only the very lowest price imaginable. You don't pay for fancy marketing. (Of course when you buy a DB it's a little bit different.) Had F&H been making Contax cameras I'm pretty sure that that brand would still be alive and kicking too, just like Rolleiflex.

EPd
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 10:45:05 PM »
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EPd,
Thanks for providing the article and the summary.  I find the numbers of production very interesting, on first blush much lower than I would have guessed, but then after thinking about it about what I'd expect for a $20-35k piece of equipment.   The really surprising thing is to think that an extra 20 people will only bring production up by 50+ units/month (if I am reading this correctly).     I'd have to guess that these people are also making a number of other products besides the Hy6 because at 2 units/person/month no one is making money.  And that dashes my hopes of getting a nice deal on the Hy6 especially if demand is still higher than production but mostly because it sounds like there's not a lot of float to give up.  Probably also explains why Hasselblad decided to make their camera with less tolerances presumably to save money in manufacturing and have them knocked out in China or wherever.

Also I find it interesting to read that Leaf was responsible for closing the open part of the platform. I had heard that before from a few people but not as clearly stated.  

Well I still want one but I want one with a phase back.
Thanks again,
Eric
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« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2008, 01:39:18 AM »
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Dear James,

your figures (72'000 Contax bodies alone / year in '95/'05) sound really wonderfull, unfortunately they are far from the truth.

The approximate (realistic) figures are following, FOR THE WHOLE MF MARKET:

- 2003: about 20'000 new cameras sold worldwide
- 2004: about 14'000
- 2005: about 10'000
- 2006: about   5 to 6'000
- 2007: about 7'000

The market is expected to be increasing again in 2008, with may be 8 to 10'000 max. new MF cameras sold.

So, these numbers are to be split/shared between the different players. MF camera bodies alone do carry usually a small margin, obviously. Usually, when selling a new MF camera body, there are also accessories and lenses sold: most of the margin comes from this. There is no secret in this.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
EpD,

What I find curious is the volume.  Will 200 sales a month sustain this system

I don't know the definition of a successful medium format camera platform, though I read that the Contax 645 was produced at the rate of 2000 per month.

If that number is correct and the fact the Contax was on the market from 1999 to 2005, even on the very conservative side that would put 72,000 Contax' in the market and even at that amount of market penetration the camera line was closed down.

At 200 per month, 2,400 per year how long will it take the Hy6 to have an impact on the market.

I guess I'm not understanding something about the numbers, because I have heard forever that the Contax was closed because they didn't have a digital solution, and even though it seems devleopment costs of the HY6 was split up among various companies, how does F+H make money at 200 bodies a month. 

Does F+H make money on Sinar or Leaf backs.

(This is not an attempt to flame the camera, I'm just curious about the logic).

JR
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2008, 01:42:01 AM »
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Eric,

If somebody is responsible for the decision to limit the openness to Leaf and Sinar backs, then it is Jenoptik.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Also I find it interesting to read that Leaf was responsible for closing the open part of the platform. I had heard that before from a few people but not as clearly stated. 

Eric
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2008, 04:26:41 AM »
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yes, actually more than double the sales volume.

Thierry

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At 200 a month the Hy6 would be more successfull than the Rolleiflex 6000 series (!), which is still sort of legendary.
EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2008, 11:08:26 AM »
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Dear James,

your figures (72'000 Contax bodies alone / year in '95/'05) sound really wonderfull, unfortunately they are far from the truth.

The approximate (realistic) figures are following, FOR THE WHOLE MF MARKET:

- 2003: about 20'000 new cameras sold worldwide
- 2004: about 14'000
- 2005: about 10'000
- 2006: about   5 to 6'000
- 2007: about 7'000

The market is expected to be increasing again in 2008, with may be 8 to 10'000 max. new MF cameras sold.

So, these numbers are to be split/shared between the different players. MF camera bodies alone do carry usually a small margin, obviously. Usually, when selling a new MF camera body, there are also accessories and lenses sold: most of the margin comes from this. There is no secret in this.

Best regards,
Thierry
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The 2,000 a month number is just something I've read along with this at 1,000 contax' sold a month;

[a href=\"http://photo.net/equipment/contax/645]http://photo.net/equipment/contax/645[/url]

Regardless of the numbers sold of an out of production camera, just looking at the 200 a month planned HY6 sales, it seems it will be a long time until this camera will reach real market penetration.

I'm not in the camera making business, but I have to admit my heart goes out to the F+H people as well as my admiration.  To take a pay cut to put a product to market is rare in this day and age and I hope the camera succeeds.

Still, I must admit I don't like closed systems. (and I will bet that neither does F+H).   Going  back to the past, I can't imagine how well a camera would sell if it only accepted  one or two film makes and that is close to what we are seeing with the Hy6, even more so with the Hasselblad.

Obviously Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad are all looking for an edge, but it seems by locking down systems the result will be to marginalize medium format even further.

JR
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yaya
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« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2008, 02:26:28 PM »
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To bring things into perspective...

If the assumption that the MFDB market covers 10,000 units a year WW is true, then 2,400 AFi/ Hy6 cameras a year is 1/4 of the market (assuming that the vast majority of them are sold as a digital platform and not as a film one).

2,400 X $50K (camera+back+2-3 lenses + accessories) is $120,000,000 worth of business in one year!!

Yair
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 02:26:52 PM by yaya » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2008, 02:38:30 PM »
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Which is not entirely true because this would only apply when the whole market every year would be new entrants into MF. Some, maybe a pretty large part of them are trade-in & trade-ups.

Sure you can calculate the full value for those but have to subtract the trade-in/trade-up value of the equipment for a more accurate figure.

Still, it will be quite a sizeable market.

I think the market will even start growing faster now that most brands are selling off trade-ins as refurbs. The entry for a much larger group of people has become a lot more interesting.

Let's see how it will be next year, my prediction is that 200pieces/month will have become more (if it is already tight).

Good to see, photographers are getting more options. It does make MF more interesting as a whole.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 02:38:52 PM by Dustbak » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2008, 04:58:00 PM »
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Which is not entirely true because this would only apply when the whole market every year would be new entrants into MF. Some, maybe a pretty large part of them are trade-in & trade-ups.

Sure you can calculate the full value for those but have to subtract the trade-in/trade-up value of the equipment for a more accurate figure.

I guess you're right...a trade-in/ trade-up will typically take $7K-$15K off the $50K, so even at $35K we're still looking at $84M overall, not taking into consideration future growth...

Yair
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