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Author Topic: Sinar Hy6 & Leaf Afi  (Read 45786 times)
david o
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« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2008, 06:11:19 PM »
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I guess you're right...a trade-in/ trade-up will typically take $7K-$15K off the $50K, so even at $35K we're still looking at $84M overall, not taking into consideration future growth...

Yair
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and the 50k or 35k are retail price... so less the mark up how much it makes
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thsinar
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« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2008, 08:05:42 PM »
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As long as the H3D, which is a completely closed system, has or will take.

Thierry

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Regardless of the numbers sold of an out of production camera, just looking at the 200 a month planned HY6 sales, it seems it will be a long time until this camera will reach real market penetration.
JR
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« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2008, 01:56:02 AM »
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As long as the H3D, which is a completely closed system, has or will take.

Thierry
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Oh, and that makes you what? Partially Closed or is that Limited Open-ness? Only to Leaf and Sinar. That makes it more acceptable?

I love how you marketing guys put a spin on things as you see fit.

Sell your cameras, Thierry. But leave these veiled potshots at Hasselblad out of it because I don't see anyone from Hasselblad taking potshots at Sinar nor Leaf.

It is really like the pot calling the kettle black.
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thsinar
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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2008, 05:51:56 AM »
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Thank you so much, Sean, for your nice words, much appreciated.

You won't however make me shut my mouth with this kind of aggressive comment. If you see it as a marketing spin, then you are free to believe so.

It has been said more than enough, that the Sinar Hy6 is a closed system: I accept this view point and respect it as such.
So please leave me having and saying MY own opinion on what is closed and what is less closed (or more open): the H3D system does accept one brand of digital backs and is limited to the current sensor sizes, period. I don't critic it negatively, I do point it out.

Instead and in opposition to this, the Hy6 does accept 2 brands of backs AND DOES accept film magazines, 645 as well as 6x6, AND is open in the sense that it has a 6x6 format and can (should I say will?) be used with possible larger sensors.

These are just facts, and there are may be people here on this forum who simply do not know this. As a consequence, each and any time somebody will mention about the "closeness" of the Hy6 system, I am in the right to oppose my arguments.

Eventually, everybody has the freedom to believe what he wants and make his own judgement: he should simply be in possession of all the facts.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Oh, and that makes you what? Partially Closed or is that Limited Open-ness? Only to Leaf and Sinar. That makes it more acceptable?

I love how you marketing guys put a spin on things as you see fit.

Sell your cameras, Thierry. But leave these veiled potshots at Hasselblad out of it because I don't see anyone from Hasselblad taking potshots at Sinar nor Leaf.

It is really like the pot calling the kettle black.
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« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 08:51:01 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2008, 07:16:20 AM »
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Rollei / Hy6 has a wealth of different lenses that can be used, far more than Hasselblad. That has nothing to do with being open, but it helps (unless you want really wide).
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James R Russell
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« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2008, 11:20:10 AM »
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To bring things into perspective...

If the assumption that the MFDB market covers 10,000 units a year WW is true, then 2,400 AFi/ Hy6 cameras a year is 1/4 of the market (assuming that the vast majority of them are sold as a digital platform and not as a film one).

2,400 X $50K (camera+back+2-3 lenses + accessories) is $120,000,000 worth of business in one year!!

Yair
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Regarding the HY6

EpD you almost had me when you said the F+H workers took a pay cut to insure this camera gets produced.  That's commendable.

Theirry, you scare me when you compare it to Hasselblad's business model and Yair, you lost me when you say $50,000 is a body, a back and 2-3 lenses.

The closed part is the most disconcerning to me, because I've been down that road where one brand camera back stopped working for me and I took a $18,000 hit to go to another brand.  

At least the next brand I bought clipped right on my exisiting cameras so the loss and the transition was much easier to take.

50k is a tough buy in for a new camera and though I'm sure they'll sell and though  if it was open to Phase and Imacon at the current state of professional photography $50,000 camera systems take a long time to recover the investment.

I put a sharp pencil to every investment and right now I have $23,260 invested in 645 cameras, $30,000 invested in digital backs but that includes 13 lenses (from 35mm to 350mm), 4 bodies and two digital backs

From an artistic standpoint that pretty much does everything I need a medium format systems to do.

From a business standpoint the difference is clear.

Still, I (and many others) are obviously not adverse to investing in our busiensses, but for me  to start again at 50k is going to require more than what any medium format camera offers at the present.

We need real wi-fi, that is long reached, stable and goes to multiple devices from computers to hand held.

Seriously fast and stable software for shoot and post production, sensors that go to higher iso with less worry about noise and in camera previews and back of the camera lcd's that match the dslrs (I'll even accept matching the 2nd generation dlsrs).

Lens and accessories that are full ranged and on the shelf ready to buy and to put to work.  It's a little silly that there are new "annouced" camera systems that involves more of a waiting period than what I can presently find and easily buy for my Contax.

Most importantly we need transparency from the medium format companies with clear upgrade paths that are not time stamped and dated along with software that is released on time, full featured and stable.

Since the start of Hasselblad's perceived lock down of their brand, to the intorduction of the Hy6, there have been about 50 million words written that still makes me dizzy as to what is, is not available and when, where and how much.

I keep reading that the HY6 is only sold to the western world in Leaf or Sinar badges, though as of today on Kurland's website their is a rolliflex hy6 and 80mm lens offered for around 10 grand, though once again in the medium format world the details are murky.  Does the Rollei accept anything but Sinar and Leaf, will it accept Sinar and Leaf, where, if, when, it can be serviced?

[a href=\"http://www.kurlandphoto.com/home.php?cat=9]http://www.kurlandphoto.com/home.php?cat=9[/url]

At the cost of investment, these aren't questions any of us take lightly and clear, full featured and stable equipment is not an elective it's mandatory.




JR
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Carl Glover
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« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2008, 11:56:26 AM »
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Hi James,

The Hy6 definitely works with a Sinar back as I bought one on Thursday. It was just the body and adapter (which is being exchanged for the rotating one when it comes out at no extra cost).

First thoughts? It's light, no sync cables and an incredibly bright finder (and I'm used to the very bright finder of the 6008!) and a good solid Rollei-like feel. Hopefully next week I'll put it through its paces; I've done a few shots with it but other work has leapt in the way.

As I already own 10 Rollei lenses, buying a hy6 is a no-brainer. The Schneider/Zeiss glass has spoilt me terribly.

By the way, I love the Contax 645 too...
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yaya
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« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2008, 12:54:03 PM »
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and Yair, you lost me when you say $50,000 is a body, a back and 2-3 lenses.

An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K

50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K

So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.

There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.

I hope this clarifies

Yair
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eronald
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« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2008, 01:02:55 PM »
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And then you have to factor in the cost of maintenance, repairs and a backup system.
Better not sell that 5D.

Edmund

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An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K

50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K

So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.

There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.

I hope this clarifies

Yair
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« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2008, 02:30:50 PM »
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Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.

There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.

I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!

Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.

I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.

P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.

Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 03:03:29 PM by Sean Reginald Knight » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2008, 02:58:51 PM »
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An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K

50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K

So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.

There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.

I hope this clarifies

Yair
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Yair,

We come at this from different perspectives.

Your the seller and it's appropriate you want to sell your product at it's most profitable margins.

I understand that process.

Maybe, I'm more aware about camera costs than usual because we recently updated our insurance and I realized I have over $126,000 invested in digital cameras, lenses and accessories, (not including computers, drives, video cameras, grip, lighting etc.).

Now that covers 4 systems, Phase/contax, Nikon, Canon and Leica though never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would own over $100,000 in still cameras.

Now what I own I use, what I bought I bought at the lowest cost possible and what I have works for me and my client base, but I have to wonder where this is going and if/when it will stop or level off.

I'm not one that ever looks back to the good old days, because it's not really relevant and honestly I doubt it if it was that good in the good old days, but I do have to wonder how with tightening rates, higher production costs photographers are going to be able to continually upgrade their cameras at the clip of 20 to 50 thousand dollars every few years.  Even just buying the new dslrs can get to 20 grand pretty quickly.

I think the concept of the hy6 is great, waist level finder, large viewing, digital interface.  

The flip side is  I think the cost even at $40,000 with a back doesn't take into account that nearly everyone that can afford a $40,000  camera does serious enough work where  they must have a backup and Ronald may be joking about keeping that 5d ready, but let's be realistic that you have to have something for emergencies, that is why I own two backs, 4 bodies etc. etc.

I do think that medium format has to address the rise in costs of these systems and better still, address that they essentially force their client base into a dslr if only for backup or speed.

Personally, I don't think it's healthy for our industry if it gets to the point that photographers cannot own their own equipment and must daily rent everything.  It limits testing, experimentation and makes the learning curve too sporatic.  

There is something to be said about going into your own room with your own equipment, not thinking about costs, overtime or rentals and just producing a photograph for the sake of the photograph.

I also don't think it's healthy for the medium format industry if they price their products so high that the only buyers are rental houses or rich eye surgeons.

JR
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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2008, 03:14:54 PM »
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James,

 Re. the horrid MF prices, you seem to be forgetting that the MF guys eg. Hasselblad's CEO actually say that the exclusionary pricing, and the distinctive appearnce is one of the *features* of their product.

 I've actually talked to photographers who had to buy into MF because of the cachet of the product, not the image quality.

Edmund

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Yair,

We come at this from different perspectives.


I also don't think it's healthy for the medium format industry if they price their products so high that the only buyers are rental houses or rich eye surgeons.

JR
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« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2008, 06:08:33 PM »
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Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.

There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.

I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!

Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.

I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.

P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.

Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
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Hey Sean,

You seem a might touchy on this subject ! I suppose you use Hasselblad ?  Your aggression and choice language only diminishes your argument. When you lose your temper the ability to put forward a rational point of view only flies out the window.


Pete
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James R Russell
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« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2008, 07:00:17 PM »
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James,

 Re. the horrid MF prices, you seem to be forgetting that the MF guys eg. Hasselblad's CEO actually say that the exclusionary pricing, and the distinctive appearnce is one of the *features* of their product.

 I've actually talked to photographers who had to buy into MF because of the cachet of the product, not the image quality.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't think the medium format prices are horrid, in fact I know I make money from my investment.

I also should  add I don't think the HY6 is a bad idea and though I've never used one, it seems like a well thought out concept for the most part.

Still, I don't think that any form of controlled systems helps any of us. When you look at the HY6 from the Rollei price of  10 grand for a body and a lens isn't that bad considering it's a new system and with some careful shopping you could add lenses as you go.

The stopping point is not the camera it's the limitations of what backs are "allowed" on the camera, who would service it, will firmware become locked, etc. etc.

Obviously every manufacturer is looking for an edge and Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad believe they have that with controlling the camera as part of the buy in to the back, or vice versa.  The only way I see this as a positive is if these combinations came to market heavily discounted, but at current prices that doesn't seem to be the case.

Personally I think all of this is just a knee jerk reaction to what Hasselblad did with their H series.

Only time will tell if they are all correc t.

JR
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« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2008, 07:59:06 PM »
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Sean,

would you please give me a break? It is tiring, at the very least.

I think it is clear that everybody is allowed to express his opinion and make his own judgement about a product. But again, for me, judgements can be done only with all the facts on the table. That's all I am doing, and I would like you to respect it. When a post puts Sinar and another brand like Hasselblad at the same level of closeness or openness, it is my absolute right (and duty) to point to the differences. Again, all 30'000 + members here may not have your level of knowledge about the technical aspect of a new product and its features and possibilities.

Internet, forums and anonymity do not allow any of your non-sense, disrespectful (and disrespectable), offensive and insulting comments, attacks, lies and even smears directed to me and the company I represent.

And may you learn one thing: I am a free person. Nobody will ever stop me saying what I have to say, like it or not. However, I believe having shown so far and always respect to anyone here on this forum, included yourself. IMO, respect of others tells a lot about a person and his behavior in life general. In my country one is used to say: the smaller the dog, the louder his barking.

I expect a (much) higher level of tolerance and respect for others' way of seeing things:

- over-promise: I did promise nothing but what the Hy6 can deliver and is.

- under-deliver: I will let others judge of what we have reached when it will be time to judge.

- science-fiction: pure interpretation of my writing and absolute non-sense. Don't use the sentence "you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closeness" when you are not sure. You are creating the science-fiction out of my words yourself

- what I do with the facts? NOTHING: by definition facts are facts, as such exist and are true, and consequently do not need further interpretation.

and most importantly:

- run-down "my" competitor: I have to ask you to point me to any of my comments or writing in which I have done so. Failing what I am firmly asking you to take back this sentence from your post.

- I have to be honest to say that I don't understand your word "bollock", otherwise I would have answered your last questions as well.

I don't know what "mon ami" means in your country, but in mine it comes with a deep sense of respect: please refrain from calling me that way.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.

There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.

I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!

Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.

I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.

P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.

Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2008, 12:39:04 AM »
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Open Closed - neither of you are going to win the argument because the answer isnt black and white

This is my take.

IMO Sinar is 'more open' than Hblad but not open.

Firstly Hblad historically caught a lot of people out

They had a quote on thier website blobbing on about running a system that lasted for years 'protecton ones investment' basically promoting the CF adapter for the lenses

At that point they (BLad) didnt make Dbacks*, neither did mamiya  (and of course phase sinar imacon eyelike and leaf didnt make 645 bodies aprt from sinars baffling M system)

Hblad were welcoming 3rd party back owners to 'thier faimly' with open arms

The culture was for one to buy a body and back from different companies - it was the only option

There were lots of users like me who used (and still do) third party back on Hassy

All of a sudden we found ourselves UNEXPECTEDLY locked out of the new 28 lens and any future lenses or body upgrades -

We are now the ugly kid brothers who are no longer part of the BLad family even thought we poured $000s into their system

So we now only have 'half a system' and are not sure about future support

(at least as a sinar back owner I can move to the sinar body, get full support without buying a new back unlike leaf)

It was Blad the moving of the goalposts that really hurt

Sinar have not done that.

But thats history now.

NOW we have various systems that have various levels of openness - none completely open (in the philosophical manner that say Linux is)

Everyone should just be aware of what they are buying into..

Sinar Dbacks work on

Hy6, Hassy H1, Mamiya645 AFD ProTL, Contax, and Hassy  V and maybe more 645 bodies

Sinar view cameras accept most Dbacks

The Sinar 645 body accepts sinar and leaf backs

That (HY6) body also accepts a whole line of legacy lenses (as does the H)

Hassy DBacks

Work on Hassy cameras and maybe a view camera or two

Hassy bodies partially accept some other backs

Neither system is fully open but IMO sinar is more open and has not 'stitched up' a large part of its user base unike both Blad and Leaf

Both brands are purposely excluding Phase for financial rather than technical reasons - which doesnt sit too well with many users of DBacks and IMO will prove to be bad business too

To summarize

Brands that have let down thier userbase..
Hblad
Leaf

Brands that lock people out for financial reasons
Hblad
Sinar
Leaf Cameras

Brands whose cameras  wont take future 66 backs
Mamiya
Hblad

So the winner IMO is currently mamiya - shame thier current camera IMO is crap- I look forward to thier new offering with interest if it has multipoint AF and leaf lenses and a legacy lens catlogue back to the proTL it will be a winning system that coud threaten ALL of the companies that have decided it is a good idea to lock out phase

All the systems currently have a hole..
HY6 - no wide
HBLad - no shift
Mamiya - no leaf shutter flash synchs exept on the 67model

So the mamiya hole can be worked around

I vote sinar back, mamiya camera system if you want open

SMM

*blad did sell a rebadged imacon back but it was tethered only - so not on many shooters lists
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 01:21:15 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2008, 04:15:46 AM »
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Nice summary, Sam, which I can mostly understand and accept (we will always be arguing about the "baffling Sinar m"!).

Some little additions & one correction:

Quote
Sinar Dbacks work on
Hy6, Hassy H1, Mamiya645 AFD ProTL, Contax, and Hassy  V and maybe more 645 bodies ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

.... and on the H2, the Mamiya RZ, the Rollei 6008 and the Fuji GX 680 (eVolution 75H)

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Sinar view cameras accept most Dbacks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

all, to my knowledge.

Quote
The Sinar 645 body accepts sinar and leaf backs
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, the Sinar m does not accept Leaf backs, there is no adapter plate for it.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 05:35:32 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2008, 04:53:01 AM »
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All the systems currently have a hole..
HY6 - no wide
HBLad - no shift
Mamiya - no leaf shutter flash synchs exept on the 67model

So the mamiya hole can be worked around

Not really. If you use the Mamiya 67 then 50mm is your widest option. Also I wasn't aware that there was a TS lens for the Mamiya 645? Finally saying the Hy6 has 'no wide' is a bit misleading. 40mm is certainly a general purpose wide angle. Better to say 'not as wide'.
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« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2008, 05:06:45 AM »
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Sorry, missed this one question.

Absolutely no, this adapter is designed to fit exactly the shape of the 645 film magazine: it would not fit mechanically.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Can one conclude that with that same adapter that a person or third party can fit a digital back made for the 6008 to the Hy6?
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« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2008, 10:13:09 AM »
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We have gone over this all before.

IMO a 40 is not that wide

My example is if one is trying to do a big wedding group shot you may not be able to fit in the whole group while uncle bob the camera fiend next door with his D80 and 18-200 will be able to

embarrasing for a pro system IMO

personally I rarely use my 35 much prefering my 50 - the 35 is a 'bit vulgar' exept in emergencies


I would be happy with a 40 but as an occasional interior guy I know my clients would like a 28 FOV - and we dont have time/money for ALPA
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I meant the HY6 takes the leaf AFI back not the M takes a leaf back - I guess ??

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AFAIK the Manual  ProTL manual 55 rise works with the 645AFD

check this thread

my 24 fish certainly did (stop down MF only of course)

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Mamiya doesnt offer super wide and decent synch speed at the same time indeed

It is my eperience that I tend to need super wide (28) when shooting buildings - the 645afd can do that and fast synch when shooting portraits the M67 can do that - a good compromise
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:21:45 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
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