Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Z3100-Harman Glossy vs Hahnemuhle FAP  (Read 10709 times)
DLS
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« on: March 07, 2008, 11:18:10 AM »
ReplyReply

Now that my Z3100 has been updated with new the pinch rollers and starwheel assembly,I've had a chance to print quite a bit with the Harman glossy FB AI paper. The Z3100 now prints perfectly with no marks of any kind on it.

Until now I've been using either Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 or Fine Art Pearl for most of my prints. I'll still use the 308 for certain things, but I'll never run the FAP through my printer again. When you look at the prints side by side (Harman and FAP) it's unbelievable how much more pleasing the Harman prints are. Aside from the surface which is smooth as silk compared to the FAP, the images just look more detailed and 3 dimensional. The difference is so noticable that I actually went to a local gallery that sells my prints and took 2 home to reprint. Looking at them side by side has been a real eye opener.  There is NO comparison.

I've tried the Hahnemuhle baryta paper which is a lot better than the FAP, but not as nice overall as the Harman imo. The surface of the Hahnemuhle baryta doesn't seem as fragile as the Harman though. The Harman won't stand up to careless handling.

If inkjet printing has gotten this good, I can't help wondering what we'll have at our disposal in the future as the technology matures even more.
Logged

Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2008, 12:01:46 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If inkjet printing has gotten this good, I can't help wondering what we'll have at our disposal in the future as the technology matures even more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Just a quick question-
What kind of profile are you using for the Harman gloss on the Z3100?
The profile I made with the built-in spectro goes way dark in the shadows compared to any others I've made.
Logged
DLS
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2008, 12:28:17 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Just a quick question-
What kind of profile are you using for the Harman gloss on the Z3100?
The profile I made with the built-in spectro goes way dark in the shadows compared to any others I've made.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm using a profile generated by the z3100. I settled on "photo gloss paper" with the paper thickness option set to "thick" after a couple tries with other settings. If you don't set the paper thickness to "thick" with the "photo gloss paper" setting you'll get head strikes because this paper swells as it takes ink.

As far as the shadows: the Harman definitely has better Dmax on my prints, but no loss of shadow detail compared to other papers I've profiled.

These settings seem like the sweet spot for ink lay down. According to the HP document regarding using 3rd party papers the ink limiting is as follows:

photo gloss paper:36
fine art pearl paper(less ink):32
both of these papers at (more ink):46

I haven't tried the (more ink) settings because of the head strikes I got when profiling with ink limit at 36 and paper thickness set to "normal". It doesn't look to me like more ink would be a benefit though. There is noticeably better Dmax between the ink limit of 32 and 36 as I profiled both ways.
Logged

DLS
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2008, 12:31:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Just a quick question-
What kind of profile are you using for the Harman gloss on the Z3100?
The profile I made with the built-in spectro goes way dark in the shadows compared to any others I've made.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


One more thing: I make sure I keep the slack out of the roll. I don't know if it really makes a difference, but I didn't like getting the head strikes after profiling with "normal" thickness and it can't hurt...
Logged

POAH
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 25


« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2008, 02:34:01 PM »
ReplyReply

the harman paper is a lot more glossy compared the hahnmuhle FAB paper.  its more like a gloss paper than the other fibre based papers out there.
Logged

Free printer profiles, PM me for info
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2008, 07:18:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
One more thing: I make sure I keep the slack out of the roll. I don't know if it really makes a difference, but I didn't like getting the head strikes after profiling with "normal" thickness and it can't hurt...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks so much.
Logged
kers
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 786


WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 02:54:29 AM »
ReplyReply

I just saw this forum entry a little late and have some questions about using the papers on my Z3100

How about Gloss differential on Harman and the Hahnemuhle Baryta.- with the Gloss enhancer on.
I have not used the two papers yet but have tried:

 Ilford gold silk - lots of gloss differential GE does not work at all
and

The Epson Traditional photo paper or Exhibition fibre:  beautiful with Black/White and Ge-On.
GE does a very good job on the BW prints and is absolutely necessary
(I have used the fineart pearl paper- more ink    option)
In color mode I see some gloss differential but the problem is small.
Still I will prefer the Satin Pro from HP for the colorprints.
The gamut ( APS measured) of the paper is as good as the best HP papers - like HP satin pro



I also tried Harman Gloss FB Al and find that there is always gloss differential. I Used 36ml ( gloss photo) and 46ml ink ( fine art pearl more ink) + GEon
it is more glossy and I must say it looks very nice; but the remaining gloss differential puts me off.  
too bad the epson paper only comes in sheets..


Pieter
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:52:44 AM by kers » Logged

Pieter Kers
www.beeld.nu
ryanmfritz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 08:41:40 PM »
ReplyReply

Can anyone advise me on a great photo paper for my Z3100? I see some opinions on this thread but hope to open it up to others. The HP Premium ID GLoss to me is simply a non-professional product. I need something for my very professional photo friends and clients that I can print out professional-quality photos with. I look forward to hearing from you all...thanks,
Ryan F
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 10:44:24 PM by ryanmfritz » Logged
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2008, 08:15:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Can anyone advise me on a great photo paper for my Z3100? I see some opinions on this thread but hope to open it up to others. The HP Premium ID GLoss to me is simply a non-professional product. I need something for my very professional photo friends and clients that I can print out professional-quality photos with. I look forward to hearing from you all...thanks,
Ryan F
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's a pretty subjective issue, since we're basically talking about 'art' here. Everyone will eventually gravitate toward paper(s) that match their sense of what the images need. You'll get as many opinions as there are photographers. This is just my 2¢:

1) HP's Professional satin photo paper. This is thicker than the basic ID satin, and I really like the surface. This is sort of a 'soft gloss' with very little texture, and lacks the kind of hard mirror gloss that I find annoying. Yes, it's a bit plastic-feeling in the hand, but for anything matted & framed it's great. Base paper white is just a bit to the blue end of neutral, which means it's a very bright white. No doubt it has some OBA's, but it scores great on Wilhelm's longevity testing. And it's relatively cheap. Absolute image quality is hard to beat.

2) Hahnemüle photo rag satin. This is a quirky paper, but I love its look. Paper white is a bit warm/ivory, suggesting little if any OBA's. Once the Z3100 ink hits the paper it produces a subtle differential satin sheen that varies with tone and ink-load. The result is an apparent increase in tonal separation in the shadows & 3/4 tones. Blue skies take on a crystalline appearance and greens are terrific. D-max is only fair like most rag papers, but that satin sheen seems to increase shadow depth a bit so I can live with it, and I really love black & white prints on this paper. It has that classic HPR luxurious hand feel as well.

3) Hahnemüle photo rag pearl. No OBA's at all, ivory white paper base, and a perfectly good d-max with photo black ink. Minimal gloss differential, good color gamut, great hand feel. Surface texture is the usual subtle HPR 'eggshell'. It's becoming my standard paper for color prints when hand feel matters.

4) Crane silver rag. Great hand feel, little to no OBA's, very deep d-max, relatively subtle surface texture. The only downside for me is a rather warm paper white, so cool-toned black & white prints simply don't work. If your black & white prints are generally warm-toned, you'll love this paper.

5) Harman gloss FB AL. Incredibly deep d-max and great '3-D' appearance to prints; but the paper white is really quite blue, and the surface is very delicate and scratch prone. And you really need the newer softer pinch rollers for the Z3100 with this paper, or you'll get roller marks.
Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1427



« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2008, 08:53:14 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Can anyone advise me on a great photo paper for my Z3100? I see some opinions on this thread but hope to open it up to others. The HP Premium ID GLoss to me is simply a non-professional product. I need something for my very professional photo friends and clients that I can print out professional-quality photos with. I look forward to hearing from you all...thanks,
Ryan F
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What do you mean by "photo paper"?  Do you mean something very glossy on resin coated?
Logged

Regards,
Ron
neil snape
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1433


WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 12:49:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Since Hahnemuhle told me I could say what I want after the official press release, here goes;
They have a new PhotoRag Baryta with a F type surface which is quite glossy.
It has no OBA, 100%  cotton rag base, very light white point, and a thick support base.

It shows little gloss diff on HP inks without GE, and 0 GD with GE. It has no bronzing problem, no pinwheel marks, no problems with roller marks on the back, less problems with illum metamerism, and  a surface gloss that is really perfectly placed for inkjets.

I am gladly awaiting a better paper, but I will have a long wait.

The samples I have on Epson are even better than HP.
So if you want a premium paper this is the one.

I'll finish up a review this week, post it as soon as it's finished.
Logged
Geoff Wittig
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1017


« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 07:06:01 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Since Hahnemuhle told me I could say what I want after the official press release, here goes;
They have a new PhotoRag Baryta with a F type surface which is quite glossy.
It has no OBA, 100%  cotton rag base, very light white point, and a thick support base.

It shows little gloss diff on HP inks without GE, and 0 GD with GE. It has no bronzing problem, no pinwheel marks, no problems with roller marks on the back, less problems with illum metamerism, and  a surface gloss that is really perfectly placed for inkjets.

I am gladly awaiting a better paper, but I will have a long wait.

The samples I have on Epson are even better than HP.
So if you want a premium paper this is the one.

I'll finish up a review this week, post it as soon as it's finished.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well.
This looks like the paper I've been waiting for. I've always loved the weight, quality and hand-feel of Hahnemüle photo rag, while longing for the deep d-max of coated photo papers. Photo rag pearl is pretty nice, but the surface isn't quite there; just a bit too much texture and not quite enough d-max. Maybe this is the one.
Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1427



« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 07:42:36 PM »
ReplyReply

Neil,

Is the FineArt Baryta 325 what you're talking about?  Click here.

or

The Photo Rag Baryta 315?  Click here.

I wonder if there will be co-branded versions optimized for HP or if these papers will work equally well for Epson, Canon and HP inksets.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 07:44:31 PM by rdonson » Logged

Regards,
Ron
Colorwave
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1002


WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 01:35:17 AM »
ReplyReply

Ron,
The Fine Art Baryta is an alpha cellulose base, so I think Neil got it right in calling it Photo Rag Baryta.  I liked everything Neil said, except for the part about the Epson prints looking better <sniff>.  I'm eager to see the surface texture, which I often find too intrusive with many papers I have tried.
-Ron H.
Logged

rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1427



« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 07:51:13 AM »
ReplyReply

Thanks, Ron.  In hindsight you have to be right.  

I'm looking forward to seeing the paper as well.  I also wonder how expensive this paper is going to be.
Logged

Regards,
Ron
dandeliondigital
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 224



WWW
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 09:16:17 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi rdonson, Colorwave, Geoff Wittig, Neil Snape, and others,
This topic is very important to me and I'd like to expand it a bit so that  someday I can add to it at your level. I am using the HP Z3100ps GP 44 in model.

Since August of last year,  I have experimented at a great expense in time and materials with many, many different brands of "fibre gloss" type papers, and I understand all the technicals, clearly. I still have the original pinch rollers, and I still get roller marks with these papers. And yes, I've read all the prior threads on this forum about star wheel and roller marks.

I need to know: Have you all had the pinch rollers on your machines upgraded or what?

Since last January, when I had my star wheel assembly replaced, I've been waiting to hear positive news about printing with "photo gloss fiber" type papers on the Z. This thread has got me hoping that I will one day print them.

I have extensive experience with this machine, and I love it for all the wonderful prints I make on canvas and matte FAP materials, but I really bought this "photo printer" to print Professional Quality Gallery B&W Prints. There are so many papers out there that are aimed at doing just that.

Please let me know how you do it.

Thanks, and so long for now, TOM
Quote
Thanks, Ron.  In hindsight you have to be right. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the paper as well.  I also wonder how expensive this paper is going to be.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

www.dandeliondigital.com posters and prints
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1427



« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 10:44:52 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi Tom,

I've been printing b&w on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (HP HSFA) and HP Pro Satin.  I haven't experimented with the new round of "F" type inkjet papers due to the reports of marks on the Z and the cost of the papers.  I loved the "F" type papers in my chemical darkroom but until the economy improves for me it will take a special need to use the new inkjet papers.

I'm still using the original rollers and star wheels.
Logged

Regards,
Ron
neil snape
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1433


WWW
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 11:00:51 AM »
ReplyReply

I did have some marks on Innova. Afterwards there were some others that had light pinwheel marks too but you had to look closely. Never on the HP papers were there any pinwheel marks or roller marks either. Other than that with the Z printers there were not many problems on the surface.

On the 9180 there are rubber roller marks on certain high end media.

There aren't any on the new H Photo Rag Baryta at all. Front or back both are good. I can't say with the Z printers. I have samples on Epson VM and K3, both being exceptional.
The only paper that works close to this well on the HP is Pro Satin. Problem is for gallery printing you're better off with a cotton rag paper with no OBA.
Logged
dandeliondigital
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 224



WWW
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 01:48:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi Ron,
I've been using the HP Pro Satin. It's good, but I really want to have more choices.

Sorry, but I didn't understand this: Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (HP HSFA). This not the HP Hahnemuhle paper is it?  What is  (HP HSFA)?

Do you know if there is anything I should use to clean the rollers? Maybe that would help with the subtle marks I get in heavy ink areas.

When I do the color calibration and make a profile, the printer leaves some pretty shocking marks on those prints and I guess it's because they get pulled back rather aggressively to be read. No one I've asked has ever stated if this matters or not.

So long for now, TOM


Quote
Hi Tom,

I've been printing b&w on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (HP HSFA) and HP Pro Satin.  I haven't experimented with the new round of "F" type inkjet papers due to the reports of marks on the Z and the cost of the papers.  I loved the "F" type papers in my chemical darkroom but until the economy improves for me it will take a special need to use the new inkjet papers.

I'm still using the original rollers and star wheels.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217321\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

www.dandeliondigital.com posters and prints
dandeliondigital
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 224



WWW
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 01:56:15 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi Neil,
Before my star wheel platen was replaced, my machine was a terror, and it really chewed through even HP Premium ID Gloss which is quite tough stuff. On the fiber type media it was amazingly bad. It's much improved, but with the fiber type, I'm still having troubles.

You say, "there aren't any on the new H Photo Rag Baryta at all," but you mean on Epson and not HP Z, correct?

You said: Problem is for gallery printing you're better off with a cotton rag paper with no OBA.

So on the Z that paper would be?

Thanks, and so long for now, TOM

Quote
I did have some marks on Innova. Afterwards there were some others that had light pinwheel marks too but you had to look closely. Never on the HP papers were there any pinwheel marks or roller marks either. Other than that with the Z printers there were not many problems on the surface.

On the 9180 there are rubber roller marks on certain high end media.

There aren't any on the new H Photo Rag Baryta at all. Front or back both are good. I can't say with the Z printers. I have samples on Epson VM and K3, both being exceptional.
The only paper that works close to this well on the HP is Pro Satin. Problem is for gallery printing you're better off with a cotton rag paper with no OBA.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=217323\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Logged

www.dandeliondigital.com posters and prints
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad